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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #181  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:15 PM
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Cornwall (and Rothesay in Scotland) are the Dukedoms of the heir to the throne and thus always take precedence over other titles (except Prince of Wales, Earl of Chester).

Unless the title is a held by a royal e.g. Duke of Kent precedence is done on date of creation. My understanding is that when the present Dukes of Gloucester and Kent die then the precedence of those Dukedoms will revert to order of creation as the holder will no longer by HRH Prince, which both the holders are at the moment (HRH Prince Richard and HRH Prince Edward respectively).
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  #182  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:18 PM
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Thank you.
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  #183  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess Robijn View Post
Wouldn´t the Queen be able to allow her to use the style of Princess Catherine...
Yes. As she did with Diana, who was always "HRH The Princess of Wales" while married and "Diana, Princess of Wales" with divorce.

Nonetheless, The Queen never objected to the style of "Princess Diana" informally, even though technically it was incorrect for a princess by marriage.
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  #184  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:30 PM
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The Queen would only allow Catherine to use the style of Princess Catherine if she made her a princess in her own right. Otherwise, she's not entitled to it.

Besides, the press called Diana "Princess Diana", and the Queen can't control what the press called her. I don't believe Diana ever called herself "Princess Diana" or instructed anyone to refer to her that way. Also, the style "Diana, Princess of Wales" is customary for a divorced woman. The Queen had nothing to do with that either.
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  #185  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:32 PM
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The Dukedom of Cornwall takes precedence over all others as it is automatically held by the eldest son and heir of The Sovereign. Therefore, when Victoria died and Edward VII became King, George was styled "HRH The Duke of Cornwall and York" for a year, at which point he was created "Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester".

I do not believe William will be created a Duke upon marriage. I think The Queen will create him an Earl for now, given her age and the desire of William to have a bit more privacy before taking on more royal duties. Once his father becomes King, William will automatically become Duke of Cornwall anyway.

Just my two cents.
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  #186  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
The Queen would only allow Catherine to use the style of Princess Catherine if she made her a princess in her own right. Otherwise, she's not entitled to it.
The Queen doesn't need to issue letters patent creating someone a Prince or Princess in their own right in order to use a particular style. As with Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, she can simply make an announcement or confirm a style has been approved for use.

With Diana, the Palace confirmed many times when inquired about "Princess Diana" that it was acceptable as Diana became a princess automatically upon marriage to the heir to the throne and was the mother of a future king.
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  #187  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:43 PM
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Diana was a Princess through marriage, not by birth. Her official title once she married was HRH The Princess Charles, Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, etc,. She was never legally "Princess Diana". If people called her that, it was because they didn't understand how the BRF doled out titles and styles. Again, the Queen can't control what the press chooses to refer to someone as in the paper/on TV.

As for Catherine, she will never be Princess Catherine. She will be HRH Princess William of Wales or HRH The Duchess of _________ if the Queen grants William a dukedom when he marries. The press will call her Princess Catherine, but that's because most of them don't know any better.

In the case of Princess Alice, the Duchess of Gloucester, she was allowed to call herself Princess Alice to differentiate between her and her daughter-in-law, but that was an exception, not the rule. Seeing as there are no other Catherines in the BRF at the moment, there's no reason for Catherine to be styled as such to set her apart from anyone else.
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  #188  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
Also, isn't a royal dukedom different than say a garden variety dukedom? I would imagine there are many dukes in England at the moment, but not all of them are royal. A royal dukedom (like York, Edinburgh) is not a step down from being a prince, it's a compliment to it.
It's only different in that the original creation is for a member of the royal family holding the rank and style of HRH Prince of the UK. Once the title is passed to a great-grandson of the monarch, it loses royal rank and precedence and is ranked by date of creation (i.e. last on the list).

However, it remains a dukedom of the blood royal in the sense it is only created for a son or male-line grandson of the Sovereign. When the last male-line holder dies, it returns to the Crown to be re-created in the future for another HRH.
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  #189  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
The Queen would only allow Catherine to use the style of Princess Catherine if she made her a princess in her own right. Otherwise, she's not entitled to it.

Besides, the press called Diana "Princess Diana", and the Queen can't control what the press called her. I don't believe Diana ever called herself "Princess Diana" or instructed anyone to refer to her that way. Also, the style "Diana, Princess of Wales" is customary for a divorced woman. The Queen had nothing to do with that either.

There are in fact a number of reports where Diana corrected people, including reporters who called her Princess Diana.
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  #190  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:49 PM
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The Palace also referred to Diana as "Princess Diana" many times throughout the years, so it's safe to say The Queen never objected. And after her divorce, she was again referred to as "The Princess" which was totally incorrect as she was no longer a princess with divorce.

The point is The Queen can decide, as fount of all honours, what someone can be called whether letters patent are issued or not. I'm not saying Catherine will be entitled to "Princess Catherine", but simply stating there may be no objection if she is.
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  #191  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
There are in fact a number of reports where Diana corrected people, including reporters who called her Princess Diana.

Then that would bolster my theory that the "Princess Diana" moniker was press-driven and quite likely, nothing else.
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  #192  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
There are in fact a number of reports where Diana corrected people, including reporters who called her Princess Diana.
Yes, this is true. She always corrected people who called her that, stating she was "The Princess of Wales", not "Princess Diana". Her proper form of address was "Her Royal Highness" or "Ma'am" anyway.
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  #193  
Old 11-20-2010, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The Palace also referred to Diana as "Princess Diana" many times throughout the years, so it's safe to say The Queen never objected. And after her divorce, she was again referred to as "The Princess" which was totally incorrect as she was no longer a princess with divorce.

If the Palace referred to her that way, they were wrong and should have been corrected as the Queen never allowed her, either through letters patent or otherwise, to use that style.

That doesn't mean they were right to do that or that the Queen allowed it. As Iluvbertie pointed out, Diana took means to correct people who called her that, because that's not what her title was.

So no, I can't see anyone allowing Catherine to be referred to as Princess Catherine after marriage. Allowing either through legal means or otherwise.
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  #194  
Old 11-20-2010, 10:20 PM
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It's up to The Queen what she will be called. Assuming she says nothing otherwise, then Catherine will be "HRH Princess William of Wales".

If William is created a Peer, she will take her style from William's peerage with the rank of a Princess ("HRH The Duchess of X or Countess of X"), the same as any woman who marries a son or male-line grandson of The Sovereign.
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  #195  
Old 11-20-2010, 10:56 PM
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there is a significant difference between Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay. The Duke of Cornwall title passes to the eldest living son of the monarch, the Duke of Rothesay title belongs to the heir apparent. It Charles should die while QEII is the living William would be the Duke of Rothesay (I am assuming he would in the event of Charles' death become the heir apparent) but he could not become the Duke or Cornwall. That would be the eldest living son of QEII, the current Duke of York.
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  #196  
Old 11-20-2010, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by grevinnan View Post
there is a significant difference between Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay. The Duke of Cornwall title passes to the eldest living son of the monarch, the Duke of Rothesay title belongs to the heir apparent. It Charles should die while QEII is the living William would be the Duke of Rothesay (I am assuming he would in the event of Charles' death become the heir apparent) but he could not become the Duke or Cornwall. That would be the eldest living son of QEII, the current Duke of York.

That's incorrect.

When the Queen dies and Charles becomes King, William automatically becomes the Duke of Cornwall and the Duke of Rothesay. That's automatic. If Charles dies before his mother, and William becomes the heir to the throne, the Queen could then create William the Prince of Wales, but he would only get those two titles first upon his father's accession to the throne.
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  #197  
Old 11-20-2010, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by grevinnan View Post
there is a significant difference between Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay. The Duke of Cornwall title passes to the eldest living son of the monarch, the Duke of Rothesay title belongs to the heir apparent. It Charles should die while QEII is the living William would be the Duke of Rothesay (I am assuming he would in the event of Charles' death become the heir apparent) but he could not become the Duke or Cornwall. That would be the eldest living son of QEII, the current Duke of York.
It only passes to the eldest living son of The Sovereign who is also the heir to the throne. If the heir dies with male issue (as would be the case with Prince Charles), the Dukedom does not pass to the next son of The Sovereign but returns to the Crown (the duchy's income goes to The Sovereign).

The last time this happened was during the reign of George II. His son, Frederick, Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall, died and his grandson, George, became The Duke of Edinburgh (his father's original dukedom). His grandfather created him Prince of Wales and he became George III upon his death.
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  #198  
Old 11-20-2010, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by grevinnan View Post
there is a significant difference between Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay. The Duke of Cornwall title passes to the eldest living son of the monarch, the Duke of Rothesay title belongs to the heir apparent. It Charles should die while QEII is the living William would be the Duke of Rothesay (I am assuming he would in the event of Charles' death become the heir apparent) but he could not become the Duke or Cornwall. That would be the eldest living son of QEII, the current Duke of York.

No the Duke of York would/could not become the Duke of Cornwall while William or Harry lives as he wouldn't be the eldest son of the monarch who is also the heir to the throne.

When George II's son died George III was never able to be Duke of Cornwall or Duke of Rothesay as he was never the eldest son of the monarch.

He was created Prince of Wales during his grandfather's lifetime but not Duke of Cornwall or Duke of Rothesay. His Dukedom was Duke of Edinburgh for part of 1751 until created Prince of Wales.

He was, from the death of his father, until his accession the heir apparent as he he couldn't be replaced in the line of succession.

Duke of Rothesay is mandated to the heir apparent. Duke of Cornwall is mandated to the eldest son of the monarch who is also the heir apparent.

If Charles died now William could be created Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester but would not be able to be Duke of Cornwall or Duke of Rothesay.
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  #199  
Old 11-20-2010, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
If Charles dies while the Queen is still alive, then William would immediately become the Duke of Cornwall and the Duke of Rothesay as those are the titles of the heir to the throne.

The Queen could then create William the Prince of Wales, but he would get those two titles first upon his father's death OR his father's accession to the throne.
William would not become The Duke of Cornwall if Charles died as he would not be the eldest son and heir to Elizabeth II. She would likely create him Prince of Wales in due course as the heir to the throne.

He only becomes Duke of Cornwall if and when his father becomes King.
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  #200  
Old 11-20-2010, 11:10 PM
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William wouldn't be the Queen's eldest son, but he would be her heir as he's the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.
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