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  #161  
Old 01-17-2005, 01:16 PM
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EU Ban

Article from CNN, EU Ban on Nazi symbols considered....spawned by the Harry incident. I think it's a good idea.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/eu....ap/index.html

Donna B.
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  #162  
Old 01-17-2005, 01:44 PM
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The armband incident was tasteless, I agree. But I also agree with James that there are so many other military uniforms that have instilled fear in other people. Had Harry worn any number of other uniforms no one would have said a thing. The reason people are making such a big deal out of this particular uniform is because it's from a very higlighted time in history. What if he had shown up in Taliban dress? Would people have cared then? Or what about in a South African Police Officer uniform, they instilled fear in South Africa for years thanks to apartied(sp?)...

I think what we all need to remember is that this was a costume party, and while the entire idea of the party was distasteful, it was still just that, and the various costumes worn didn't necissarily represent a persons true feelings on a "matter..."
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  #163  
Old 01-17-2005, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna B.
Article from CNN, EU Ban on Nazi symbols considered....spawned by the Harry incident. I think it's a good idea.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/eu....ap/index.html

Donna B.
Well, considering all of the various meanings of the Swastika, I hope that isn´t one of the symbols they ban.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
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  #164  
Old 01-17-2005, 02:17 PM
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Wow, way to research Dennism! I read the information contained in your link, very interesting. I don't think that is very widely known, thanks for posting the link. It's terrible that the Nazi regime took the Swastika, which according to Wikipedia, had been a positive symbol of "luck" and turned it into one of terror, racism and genocide. The Swastika was not very lucky for the Jewish people. Although I know it was JUST a fancy dress party....enough is enough. I hope a ban of the Swastika is enacted, it's long overdue.

Donna B.
  #165  
Old 01-17-2005, 02:25 PM
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What exactly is a Taliban dress. Many ppl in that region dress like that and tehy are not in the Taliban or have anything to do with terrorism. Stop making up excuses. But gosh it is interesting to see that Harry is such a world changer. He clearly has alot of influence.
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  #166  
Old 01-17-2005, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Britters
The armband incident was tasteless, I agree. But I also agree with James that there are so many other military uniforms that have instilled fear in other people. Had Harry worn any number of other uniforms no one would have said a thing. The reason people are making such a big deal out of this particular uniform is because it's from a very higlighted time in history. What if he had shown up in Taliban dress? Would people have cared then? Or what about in a South African Police Officer uniform, they instilled fear in South Africa for years thanks to apartied(sp?)...

I think what we all need to remember is that this was a costume party, and while the entire idea of the party was distasteful, it was still just that, and the various costumes worn didn't necissarily represent a persons true feelings on a "matter..."


So it's ok for people to attend a party wearing black face paint? At least this is what I have been hearing. So it was more than just a costume party, it was blatant disrespect for other people's cultures and histories if you ask me. Most people know that when someone white puts on black face paint it isn't in good clean fun. Whomever it was who earlier said that the person who created and organized this party needs to take some of the blame, I agree with them. I mean where was this person's head?
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  #167  
Old 01-17-2005, 02:39 PM
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What exactly is a Taliban dress. Many ppl in that region dress like that and tehy are not in the Taliban or have anything to do with terrorism. Stop making up excuses.
I agree. I don't know everything, but I'm really not aware of any particular uniform or symbol that represents the Taliban or it's terrorism that is recognized worldwide. No one has said that middle eastern clothing/dress was a symbol of death, I certainly don't feel that way at all and don't know anyone else who does. What I'm saying is that the Swastika was a symbol of horrors during the Nazi regime and is still traumatizing to the surviving victims of those horrors and their families. It is akin to the Ku Klux Klan uniform, it promotes racism and terror.

I respectfully say that people should stop making excuses for Harry. It does him no good in the long run.

Donna B.
  #168  
Old 01-17-2005, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
In regards to your 1st pt-That is why Harry saying that 'she's not black or anything' is especially hurtful b/c we know that he or the family would not deem it suitable to go with a black girl. WHy does he have to lust after a black girl, but then suggest that he does not wan tto respectfully be with one. He has to be careful with what he says cuz it hurts many ppl, esp. his subjects. Also this is not a good ex. to others.

Your second pt.-I have also been questionable about Harry's paternity. But I hope that if he is not Charles' son that it will never come out. Life for him would be unbearable and I don't wish that on anyone.
I find the subject re his paternity malicious, embarressing and undecent.
  #169  
Old 01-17-2005, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sommone
So it's ok for people to attend a party wearing black face paint? At least this is what I have been hearing. So it was more than just a costume party, it was blatant disrespect for other people's cultures and histories if you ask me. Most people know that when someone white puts on black face paint it isn't in good clean fun. Whomever it was who earlier said that the person who created and organized this party needs to take some of the blame, I agree with them. I mean where was this person's head?
WHAT?!?!?!? Where did you ever come up with me saying it was okay? Read my posts-I have never said it was okay what Harry did-or that the party was in any form tasteful. In fact I have stated multiple times, that it wasn't right and that it was tasteless! Don't put words in my mouth.

Quote:
What exactly is a Taliban dress. Many ppl in that region dress like that and tehy are not in the Taliban or have anything to do with terrorism. Stop making up excuses. But gosh it is interesting to see that Harry is such a world changer. He clearly has alot of influence.
First, I don't make excuses for Harry. I'm not a fan of his, and if you care to look you would see that. Second, I probably stated the Taliban piece wrong, what I'm saying is that if Harry had showed up dressed in something that might have represented Taliban (as I'm sure there is something the wore or did to distinguish them from others) or any other terrorist group, would he have been as ridiculed?

Again-I am not defending Harry!!! Military groups all over the world have made at least one ethnicity or group uncomfortable. The US did it to their own people for years, as well as to the Japanese living in the country during the second World War. Costume Dress or not it was wrong to wear what Harry did...but in following with the party theme (which was wrong) anything could have been viewed as tasteless.
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  #170  
Old 01-17-2005, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britters

I think what we all need to remember is that this was a costume party, and while the entire idea of the party was distasteful, it was still just that, and the various costumes worn didn't necissarily represent a persons true feelings on a "matter..."
Stop being overly defensive. I wasn't accusing you of anything. Neither was I putting words in your mouth. I was simply asking you a question based upon your words "I think what we all need to remember is that this was a costume party....and the various costumes worn didn't necissarily represent a persons true feelings on a matter..." I did see the part where you thought it was distateful, etc. etc. The point I was making in my post was that it was more than just a costume party (I think I did say that). The other point, I left out accidentally was that I disagree that "it doesn't necessarily reflect a person's true feelings on the matter..." These people, I'm sure are aware of history, and to attend a party, a very distateful one at that, with costumes on symbolizing not so great times for certain groups of people in the world, one has to wonder, at least I do, how they really feel about these events in history. Sorry I asked the question....
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  #171  
Old 01-17-2005, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sommone
So it's ok for people to attend a party wearing black face paint? At least this is what I have been hearing. So it was more than just a costume party, it was blatant disrespect for other people's cultures and histories if you ask me. Most people know that when someone white puts on black face paint it isn't in good clean fun. Whomever it was who earlier said that the person who created and organized this party needs to take some of the blame, I agree with them. I mean where was this person's head?
Holland is a very small country in the world but here on the feast of St Nicholas (5th december) it is good clean fun for a white person to put black paint on his/her face when dressed up as the assistant of st nicholas as zwartepiet (black pieter?) the helper of the saint.

Some politally correct adults had imagined it would give black children a complex if they saw servants being black and they occasionnaly had zwarte pieten with blue paint on their faces wich made them look like that smurfs and confused children whose mind had never conceived the thought about being less than anyone else.
  #172  
Old 01-17-2005, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by susanstotz
Holland is a very small country in the world but here on the feast of St Nicholas (5th december) it is good clean fun for a white person to put black paint on his/her face when dressed up as the assistant of st nicholas as zwartepiet (black pieter?) the helper of the saint.
Sorry can't say that I am aware of Dutch culture... However, those people at the party that PH attended were not doing it in good clean fun, and we know this, so that is completely different. Also, when I made the statement about white people putting black paint on their faces, I wasn't talking about the Dutch. Actually, I do know that at certain times, black paint is worn for other reasons...maybe I should have stated that, but in this instance, it wasn't in good clean fun.
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  #173  
Old 01-17-2005, 05:28 PM
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Angry

Maybe with the way Harry dressed and the way it seems he feels about black or coloured people, then perhaps the costume he should of got should have been Ku Klux Klan

Job:They do not like any other race then their own. They wish the extinction of blacks, catholics, and Jews.

this sounds just the ticket for our young prince !

or had his dad Charles/Hewitt rented the last 1 ?????????

and at the end of the day he can say sorry its just a bit of fun, no harm done

also if Harry sees the camera man again, he might give him a punch, i hear he is good at hitting people !
  #174  
Old 01-17-2005, 06:12 PM
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I think this thread is beginning to get a bit out of hand. If people have anything else constructive to say about this incident, then go ahead and say it. Otherwise I think we're just spiralling downward into slinging insults around, at both the royal family and each other. That's a destructive and unnecessary path for this thread to be taking. Anybody who wishes to sum up their opinions about this incident is welcome to do so, and then I suggest we move on.

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  #175  
Old 01-17-2005, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Royal Highness
I mean OH PLEASE get a major life and get over it! COSTUME party! HELLO PEOPLE!
Do you know anything about the history of the British royal family? Or World War II?
  #176  
Old 01-17-2005, 08:02 PM
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I think that this has been blown up... we all know what he did was wrong... and im sure he does now too... i just think after the tsunami people would remember that we are all humans... of the same race... regardless of anything.... we could debate this for hours... but why rub more salt into the wounds of those that suffered in germany all those years ago...
  #177  
Old 01-17-2005, 10:10 PM
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The boy's crew is in a whole lotta trouble now


Parliament may probe Prince Harry's aides

London - The British lower house of parliament is to open an inquiry next month into the advisers of Prince Harry after he caused outrage by turning up at a fancy dress party in a Nazi uniform, the Times reported on Monday.

The daily said the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons would probe how the aides of Prince Harry and his older brother Prince William were recruited.

"Where do they get these people who are advising Harry? They are either negligent, incompetent, politically suspect, or a combination of all three," committee member Ian Davidson of the ruling Labour party was quoted as saying.

Sir Michael Peat, who runs the private office of Prince Charles, the father of William and Harry, will be summoned to testify before the televised meeting of the committee from February 7, the Times said.

'Where do they get these people who are advising Harry?' The committee will also investigate the £16-million (about R180-million) income generated every year for Prince Charles, the heir to the British throne, from his Duchy of Cornwall estate. The funds pay for 84 members of his staff.

Harry, 20, the grandson of Queen Elizabeth II, was photographed at a fancy dress party in a version of a Nazi Afrika Korps uniform, complete with swastika armband.

Harry immediately apologised for his gaffe, but repeated calls for him to make further amends, such as visiting the site of the former Auschwitz death camp in southern Poland, have kept the issue in the headlines.

The parliamentary committee will only be able to make recommendations, the Times said.

Published on the Web by IOL on 2005-01-17 06:43:17

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  #178  
Old 01-17-2005, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
You have a point. There are more serious situations with Nazism that is going on in teh world in front of our very eyes. Anit-semitism is on the rise and so many ppl are against Israel :(. Indeed no one is perfect-not even the BRF members-and we oursleves are not perfect. Thanks for your point.
I don't know about whether anti-Semitism’s on the rise or not (against Jewish individuals / I do know that they're #3 on the top four sought after group regarding hate crimes in the US, blacks being #1 and gays being #2 as far as reported crimes go), but as far as some people being "against Israel" goes, I don't think that a lot of them are as much against Israel (as a whole country) as they're against some of the country's governmental policies (i.e. building illegal settlements). Also, if you look at the treatment of some Muslims and those who “look” Muslim in the US after 911 up until the Iraq war (and probably even more so now), "reported" hate crimes against especially some Arabs and Muslims (and Sikhs to a lesser degree) living within the States, have gone up by 200% (whether its something as small as a taunt, all the way up to manslaughter).

And off course there are and have been "many" different types of situations around the world, in which many different kinds of people on an ethnic, tribal, cultural and/or religious basis have, have been and are suffering in the most terrible of ways. These situations include: the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings in Japan, the Rwanda genocide in which one million people (both Tutsis and Hutus) were killed in no more than a month, aids for individuals within certain parts of South Africa and off course the recent tsunami disaster which devastated and tore through parts of nine countries (especially in South and Southeast Asia), wiping out whole villages and leaving many people (whether Hindu, Buddhist, Christian etc.) homeless, hungry, injured, ill or even dead. Different human beings (regardless of their ethnic/religious background) have horrifically suffered throughout history and some still are, not just one group.

Regarding the whole Harry ordeal, I think that he should be given "some" slack (perhaps about 5-10%) only because the party was a private one as opposed to public. In other words, its not as if the guy went to the Oscars parading about in the costume, smiling for the camera. But as for the whole theme of the party along with Harry's costume, to me its something like hidden racism (whether that was the original intent or not on the part of Harry and the rest of the party goers). In hidden racism, a person may make ignorant statements about a group(s) of people (on an ethnic/religious basis) behind closed doors and not make the remarks in public in order to not make themselves look bad/hurt a person's feelings, but in the end its still wrong.

I found Dennism's post interesting regarding the info she found on the true meaning behind the swastika. Since the original meaning behind the symbol was totally different from the one adopted by the Nazis ... I guess that I can kind of agree with the idea that wearing a military uniform belonging to another group/country would kind of be the same thing. Just as the swastika was used as a symbol for cruelty and murder, some people could very well interpret an American uniform with a patch of the American flag on its sleeve (for example), as a symbol used for the very same characteristics mentioned above as well.
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  #179  
Old 01-17-2005, 10:41 PM
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I was talking in relation to the swastika controversy. I recognize that other grps suffer. But the swastika is a direct symbol of hatred towards Jews. And anti-semitism has gone up by the growing no. of neo-Nazi grps and by some muslims in various countries. in fact neo-nazi grps praise the terrorists who particpated in 9/11. but anyway I don't want to get off topic
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  #180  
Old 01-17-2005, 10:51 PM
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Here is a nice little article that may give hope:


Diary
'Harry is neither Nazi sympathiser nor Holocaust-denier. He is, quite simply, 20'

Cristina Odone
Sunday January 16, 2005
The Observer


In 1979, the 20-year-old son of a prominent member of the British establishment was photographed goose-stepping down the high street in Oxford. The Sun splashed with the picture, the youth was attacked widely for his 'Nazi' behaviour, his father was given a tough time. Today, Jamie Sainsbury, whose father Tim had been one of Margaret Thatcher's ministers at the time of his 'march on Oxford', funds ground-breaking studies in family relations, countless environmental projects, and is the patron of some promising young artists. The indiscretion of his youth has been, if not forgotten, then certainly exonerated by his adult good works.

It is a familiar pattern - boys whose boisterous behaviour gets them into trouble growing up into pillars of the community: think of St Augustine who stole pears from his neighbour's garden and then became a doctor of the church; or Winston Churchill whose boorish scrapes regularly embarrassed his MP father until he grew up into the statesman who led his nation in its darkest hour.

History is littered with young asses who go on to make good. Prince Harry may be fond of the Marlboro Lights and the Jack Daniel's and hang out with ditzy girls, but he has hitherto shown no worrying Nazi sympathy.

In fact, there is every reason to expect that he will grow into a Charles-like figure of clumsy well-meaning, a champion of the admirable Prince's Trust and a farmer of GM-free wheatgrass. A fine representative, in short, of tomorrow's establishment.

That Harry chose to wear a swastika at a fancy-dress party speaks volumes about his immaturity and thoughtless ways. He certainly will have learnt at Eton what the swastika represented, but he simply couldn't work out for himself how offensive it would still be for a Jew, a German or a veteran to see it displayed on a young royal's sleeve.

But then, when you're young, you are into fancy dress and outrageous behaviour rather than other people's painful legacy. For a 20-year-old undergraduate, 'history' has nothing living about it, and a Colonials and Natives fancy-dress theme just means a do where the girls wear skimpy outfits or see-through sarees. Harry couldn't recognise, in either the armband or the party theme, a potential minefield of excruciating errors of judgment. But then, neither would many other 20-year-olds.

The Bullingdon in Oxford is an all-boys club whose membership consists of a small group of popular, wealthy young bloods who hold a notoriously drunken 12-course dinner each year. After one particular dinner ended up with the eighteenth-century furniture in Worcester college dining hall smashed, a young tutor called on the Bullingdon lot to be sent down. But the wisest head in the college, the late Harry Pitt, immediately quashed the proposal.

Education, he said, should never include the humiliation of young idiots, for this simply fills them with resentment and stops their transformation into upstanding citizens. It might not have sounded like wisdom to the college staff who had to pick up the mess left behind by the Bullingdon boys, but many of those young idiots are now solid members of the community.

Prince Harry will no doubt do the same. He is neither a Nazi sympathiser nor a Holocaust denier. He is, quite simply, 20.

Older but not wiser


The prince is not the only young person under attack. The tabloids overflow with stories of teenage binge drinking, teen mags with tales of the terrible spread of sexual disease or girls complaining about their bodies. Last week, the vice chancellor of Brunel urged other universities to start teaching their undergraduates morals, as plagiarism and cheating were, he believed, reaching epidemic proportions on campuses. Britons under 30, it is clear, are dissolute, depraved and devious. I wonder how they could have turned out so badly, when British adults are the number one consumers of alcohol in Europe; British women spend billions on cosmetic surgery and their magazines are stuffed with photos of anorexic models complaining that their 'bums look big in this'; programmes such as Desperate Housewives show that adulthood is boredom alleviated only by a romp with the gardener; and porn sites get millions of hits per day. As for plagiarism and cheating, there are journalists who have been outed as both and yet retain their posts. Grown-ups, it would seem, are not the picture of perfection they would like us to think. In fact, they are no better than their children.

The rich are indifferent


Veroniks Borovik-Khilchevskaya runs a successful media empire in Moscow. Although she is not in good odour with the Kremlin, the sophisticated Russian counts some of the country's richest citizens among her inner circle. She told me this caused her a bit of a headache before Christmas, as she didn't know what presents to buy for those who have everything. But at Moscow's exclusive Vernissage shop, they had just the thing: a suitcase especially designed for slippers worn on private jets. At least her friends were properly enthusiastic. Here in London, the ultra rich can't get excited about anything. At a party to launch Panerai watches, toffs such as Lisa B and Anton Bilton, Rose Windsor and Francesca Versace were handed a key at the end of the party and told that anyone whose key opened a particular cabinet at the Panerai shop would win a watch. The prize was worth several thousand pounds and the group I was with lost no time in rushing to the west London store to try out our keys. But the moneyed guests didn't budge and, a month later, no one has bothered to claim their prize. The rich are not only different, they are indifferent.
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