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  #181  
Old 01-18-2005, 02:59 AM
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Symbol or the misusage of it?

I thing that you are wrong!
At first, why the swastika (Gammadion) is a direct symbol of hatred towards Jews and not other ppl of WWII? For the other ppls of Europe, nazism had other symbols?
And 2nd, you don't wants to get off topic it,....and you believe that's write?
If Saddam H. of Irak had taken a Brit.royal symbol and put this to his baath's party, you shall confounded the Brit. royal symbol? and no the person? and no the practice of him?
The Crusaders 800 y. ago arrived to St Sofia of Konstantinople(Byzantium) and make it "land-Madiam", must we confound the christ. cross because this was their symbol?
The "Gammadion" (in greek lang.) is an ancient greek symbol and used in paint practice and like symbol. As practice painted it on amphores when they had consecutive presentations fm left to right or fm right to left. And like symbol always right-handed to mean by the right-shackles = "take your life in your hands" that is to say "to be in energy" and the different = "leave your life at fortune" like fatalism.:)
This symbol there is on the Acropole rock of Athens!!
I am writting all these for to be better knowed this symbol to anyone.
And now the question: What must to confounded the symbols or the misusage of them?
I think that if we continue to "scrounge" a party dressing..... i'm afraid we are in middle age!
The acceptacion or the rejection at your crisis!
Thanks:) .
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  #182  
Old 01-18-2005, 03:23 AM
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I think that Harry is an idiot and should NEVER have worn that costume. It's not funny and in my opinion the Nazi symbol is inapprorpriate for ANYBODY to wear and if one of my friends wore it to a party I would loose all respect for them. And I am 20 by the way.

However I don't think Harry really understands WHY everybody is so very upset about his costume. Therefore I think Harry should somehow be educated on the holocaust and WWII whether it is by visiting Auswitz or hearing a survior talk to him. Or simply learning from his grandmother about the war and how horrible it was. I don't understand why he is unwilling to do something to correct his mistake because his ignorance is getting so much attention.
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  #183  
Old 01-18-2005, 06:47 AM
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Harry...Harry...Harry...this guy never thinks or something or if he does it is a bit delayed...
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  #184  
Old 01-18-2005, 09:09 AM
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Yeah, I believe he never think in the consequencies of his acts and/or his words...
  #185  
Old 01-18-2005, 02:12 PM
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From IOL:

Parliament may probe Prince Harry's aides

The British lower house of parliament is to open an inquiry next month into the advisers of Prince Harry after he caused outrage by turning up at a fancy dress party in a Nazi uniform, the Times reported on Monday.

The daily said the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons would probe how the aides of Prince Harry and his older brother Prince William were recruited.

"Where do they get these people who are advising Harry? They are either negligent, incompetent, politically suspect, or a combination of all three," committee member Ian Davidson of the ruling Labour party was quoted as saying.
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  #186  
Old 01-18-2005, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
Here is a nice little article that may give hope:


Diary
'Harry is neither Nazi sympathiser nor Holocaust-denier. He is, quite simply, 20'

Cristina Odone
Sunday January 16, 2005
The Observer

In 1979, the 20-year-old son of a prominent member of the British establishment was photographed goose-stepping down the high street in Oxford. The Sun splashed with the picture, the youth was attacked widely for his 'Nazi' behaviour, his father was given a tough time. Today, Jamie Sainsbury, whose father Tim had been one of Margaret Thatcher's ministers at the time of his 'march on Oxford', funds ground-breaking studies in family relations, countless environmental projects, and is the patron of some promising young artists. The indiscretion of his youth has been, if not forgotten, then certainly exonerated by his adult good works.

It is a familiar pattern - boys whose boisterous behaviour gets them into trouble growing up into pillars of the community: think of St Augustine who stole pears from his neighbour's garden and then became a doctor of the church; or Winston Churchill whose boorish scrapes regularly embarrassed his MP father until he grew up into the statesman who led his nation in its darkest hour.

History is littered with young asses who go on to make good. Prince Harry may be fond of the Marlboro Lights and the Jack Daniel's and hang out with ditzy girls, but he has hitherto shown no worrying Nazi sympathy.

In fact, there is every reason to expect that he will grow into a Charles-like figure of clumsy well-meaning, a champion of the admirable Prince's Trust and a farmer of GM-free wheatgrass. A fine representative, in short, of tomorrow's establishment.

That Harry chose to wear a swastika at a fancy-dress party speaks volumes about his immaturity and thoughtless ways. He certainly will have learnt at Eton what the swastika represented, but he simply couldn't work out for himself how offensive it would still be for a Jew, a German or a veteran to see it displayed on a young royal's sleeve.

But then, when you're young, you are into fancy dress and outrageous behaviour rather than other people's painful legacy. For a 20-year-old undergraduate, 'history' has nothing living about it, and a Colonials and Natives fancy-dress theme just means a do where the girls wear skimpy outfits or see-through sarees. Harry couldn't recognise, in either the armband or the party theme, a potential minefield of excruciating errors of judgment. But then, neither would many other 20-year-olds.

The Bullingdon in Oxford is an all-boys club whose membership consists of a small group of popular, wealthy young bloods who hold a notoriously drunken 12-course dinner each year. After one particular dinner ended up with the eighteenth-century furniture in Worcester college dining hall smashed, a young tutor called on the Bullingdon lot to be sent down. But the wisest head in the college, the late Harry Pitt, immediately quashed the proposal.

Education, he said, should never include the humiliation of young idiots, for this simply fills them with resentment and stops their transformation into upstanding citizens. It might not have sounded like wisdom to the college staff who had to pick up the mess left behind by the Bullingdon boys, but many of those young idiots are now solid members of the community.

Prince Harry will no doubt do the same. He is neither a Nazi sympathiser nor a Holocaust denier. He is, quite simply, 20.

Older but not wiser


The prince is not the only young person under attack. The tabloids overflow with stories of teenage binge drinking, teen mags with tales of the terrible spread of sexual disease or girls complaining about their bodies. Last week, the vice chancellor of Brunel urged other universities to start teaching their undergraduates morals, as plagiarism and cheating were, he believed, reaching epidemic proportions on campuses. Britons under 30, it is clear, are dissolute, depraved and devious. I wonder how they could have turned out so badly, when British adults are the number one consumers of alcohol in Europe; British women spend billions on cosmetic surgery and their magazines are stuffed with photos of anorexic models complaining that their 'bums look big in this'; programmes such as Desperate Housewives show that adulthood is boredom alleviated only by a romp with the gardener; and porn sites get millions of hits per day. As for plagiarism and cheating, there are journalists who have been outed as both and yet retain their posts. Grown-ups, it would seem, are not the picture of perfection they would like us to think. In fact, they are no better than their children.

The rich are indifferent


Veroniks Borovik-Khilchevskaya runs a successful media empire in Moscow. Although she is not in good odour with the Kremlin, the sophisticated Russian counts some of the country's richest citizens among her inner circle. She told me this caused her a bit of a headache before Christmas, as she didn't know what presents to buy for those who have everything. But at Moscow's exclusive Vernissage shop, they had just the thing: a suitcase especially designed for slippers worn on private jets. At least her friends were properly enthusiastic. Here in London, the uTRFa rich can't get excited about anything. At a party to launch Panerai watches, toffs such as Lisa B and Anton Bilton, Rose Windsor and Francesca Versace were handed a key at the end of the party and told that anyone whose key opened a particular cabinet at the Panerai shop would win a watch. The prize was worth several thousand pounds and the group I was with lost no time in rushing to the west London store to try out our keys. But the moneyed guests didn't budge and, a month later, no one has bothered to claim their prize. The rich are not only different, they are indifferent.
reina,

thanks for posting this article, it was mentioned on breakfast with frost on the bbc on sunday as being excellent and I was wondering what she had said.

I wish people would not email in capital letters and enlarged ones. It is like shouting to each other and in my opinion, not necessary to make you point clear.
  #187  
Old 01-18-2005, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
I was talking in relation to the swastika controversy. I recognize that other grps suffer. But the swastika is a direct symbol of hatred towards Jews. And anti-semitism has gone up by the growing no. of neo-Nazi grps and by some muslims in various countries. in fact neo-nazi grps praise the terrorists who particpated in 9/11. but anyway I don't want to get off topic
Yes I realize that (that you were talking about the swastika ordeal), but I just wanted to point out that individuals within other backgrounds have and are still suffering as well. I wasn't trying to accuse of you of not caring about other ethnic/religious groups (sorry if it came out that way), but since you specifically singled out anti-Semitism (past and present), I wanted to go a little further and speak about the suffering of other groups as well. The Holocaust was most definitely a truly horrid event that occurred within history, but unfortunately some equally tragic events throughout time haven't been spoken about as much within the media: whether in books, songs, tv shows and/or films.

The swastika was and sometimes still is "used" as a symbol of hatred towards Jews (since it originally connoted a different meaning before being adopted by the Nazis), but it was/is also used as a symbol of intolerance towards many other groups as well including: gypsies, homosexuals, people of "colour" etc. Here's a good website to read up some more on the prior info. It speaks of the multitude of groups who were imprisoned/tortured/executed during the Holocaust:

http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/fivmil.htm

Regarding the idea of some Muslims creating anti-Semitic acts (as individuals within all different religions tend to do, towards some people within different sects of the same religion and/or a completely different one, through discrimination/vandalism/terrorism: i.e. the India Air bombings created by a so-called Sikh against India's Hindu majority, so-called Christian "pro life" activists who blew up abortion clinics killing people inside and a couple of years ago two so-called Jewish men tried to blow up a mosque as well (both incidents taking place in the US), some of them must be, although I think that the proper term for them is so-called Muslims or Islamic extremists rather than Muslims. As for the alleged idea that all neo-Nazi groups praise the 911 highjackers, I've heard that its more of a rumour than a fact. Even if some of the groups did, I doubt that "all of them" praised them. This rumour has yet to be proven. Where exactly did you get this info from (I've read about this idea on a few websites, but off course not everything online is 100% or even partially correct at all)? I'd prefer to stay on topic as well, but I really needed to say everything that I've written, because i find it really important (just this once) :o
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  #188  
Old 01-18-2005, 04:19 PM
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I've just retitled this thread "Prince Harry's Nazi Costume," and it'll stay open for as long as people have constructive things to say on this subject. The new regular Harry thread is here:

Prince Harry Current Events 5: January-May 2005

Please don't post any stuff about the Nazi costume over there; this thread will be available for as long as needed for this conversation to continue.
  #189  
Old 01-18-2005, 04:52 PM
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OK TELL ME WHAT MAKES IT RIGHT FOR HARRY TO GO ROUND FIGHTING PEOPLE, WHEN THEY ARE DOING A JOB ?

HARRY WILL NEVER HAVE TO DO A DAYS WORK IN HIS LIFE !
ANY WORK HE DOES WILL BE BECAUSE HE WANT TO NOT BECAUSE THE BANK ARE GOING TO REPOSSES HIS HOUSE !
  #190  
Old 01-18-2005, 09:01 PM
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At the end of the day there is too much religious and social discrimination alive and well in Britain today which must be addressed. I'm sure that many people who post to this thread are unaware of the institutionalised bigotry in the county where Prince Harry's "Native and Colonials" party took place. For example, did you know that in Britain not only can the Monarch not marry a Roman Catholic but no Roman Catholic can become Prime Minister?. Any Prime Minister who converted to Catholicism would HAVE to resign his/her office. Did you also know that the Royal Household ,which compromises THOUSANDS of employees, from maids to Private secretary's, is made up of LESS than 1% of "non-whites" and those that are not white occupy the lowest rungs of the Household ladder. One goverment minister, who was of African-British origin, attended a State Banquet in 2001 and said, " I was shocked when I entered Buckingham Palace. Within seconds I moved from the streets of London, which was full of black, Chinese, Hindu people etc and numerous facets of the Christian faith into a world completely white and Church of England. It frightened me that this was the domain of our Head of State and yet her court was totally out of step with the people she represented". Is it any wonder that Prince Harry and his upper class cronies think it is acceptable to blacken their faces for a laugh and in Harry's own case, stress to his father that his girlfriend "Isn't black or anything" when such attitudes are ingrained in his social strata. People say the Queen and Prince Philip are shocked at the swastika incident but Philip himself (in his sixties) reffered to people from the Far East as "slity-eyed". Is it any wonder that Harry thought wearing the swastika was no big deal?
  #191  
Old 01-18-2005, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovy_bear
Yes I realize that (that you were talking about the swastika ordeal), but I just wanted to point out that individuals within other backgrounds have and are still suffering as well. I wasn't trying to accuse of you of not caring about other ethnic/religious groups (sorry if it came out that way), but since you specifically singled out anti-Semitism (past and present), I wanted to go a little further and speak about the suffering of other groups as well. The Holocaust was most definitely a truly horrid event that occurred within history, but unfortunately some equally tragic events throughout time haven't been spoken about as much within the media: whether in books, songs, tv shows and/or films.

The swastika was and sometimes still is "used" as a symbol of hatred towards Jews (since it originally connoted a different meaning before being adopted by the Nazis), but it was/is also used as a symbol of intolerance towards many other groups as well including: gypsies, homosexuals, people of "colour" etc. Here's a good website to read up some more on the prior info. It speaks of the multitude of groups who were imprisoned/tortured/executed during the Holocaust:

http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/fivmil.htm

Regarding the idea of some Muslims creating anti-Semitic acts (as individuals within all different religions tend to do, towards some people within different sects of the same religion and/or a completely different one, through discrimination/vandalism/terrorism: i.e. the India Air bombings created by a so-called Sikh against India's Hindu majority, so-called Christian "pro life" activists who blew up abortion clinics killing people inside and a couple of years ago two so-called Jewish men tried to blow up a mosque as well (both incidents taking place in the US), some of them must be, although I think that the proper term for them is so-called Muslims or Islamic extremists rather than Muslims. As for the alleged idea that all neo-Nazi groups praise the 911 highjackers, I've heard that its more of a rumour than a fact. Even if some of the groups did, I doubt that "all of them" praised them. This rumour has yet to be proven. Where exactly did you get this info from (I've read about this idea on a few websites, but off course not everything online is 100% or even partially correct at all)? I'd prefer to stay on topic as well, but I really needed to say everything that I've written, because i find it really important (just this once) :o
I agree that I should not have said some Muslims. I actually forgot the correct word to use that is why I said some. But I guess the correct word would be Islamist or radical Muslims, but I prefer Islamist b/c that is directly different from Islamic. ALso I am aware that other groups of ppl were victims of the Holocaust like the gypies, romas, homosexuals. But most of the 6 million ppl were Jews, so I guess you could see why I didi not mention the otehr groups.

Anyway JAmes you are right. I have often wondered if many ppl (not just the RF) practice what they preach. I am having a hard time believing many who say all the politically correct things. I do not believe in being politically correct. I wish thatit were ok for all ppl to express how they really feel. that way we could address issues better.
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  #192  
Old 01-18-2005, 09:17 PM
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YEAH Reina! I think we are starting to connect! I didn't mean to be rude to you in other posts it's just that I don't agree that what Harry did was in the be all and end all in being offensive. Can I also say that I found it laughable when I saw the owner of the shop where he hired his costume holding up an SS uniform and scolding him for almost hiring it. I mean SHE hires out these Nazi uniforms so where is she coming from?
  #193  
Old 01-18-2005, 09:44 PM
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Well the only positive thing I see coming out of this is that we start talking about these issues. They are truly serious.
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  #194  
Old 01-18-2005, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james
At the end of the day there is too much religious and social discrimination alive and well in Britain today which must be addressed. I'm sure that many people who post to this thread are unaware of the institutionalised bigotry in the county where Prince Harry's "Native and Colonials" party took place. For example, did you know that in Britain not only can the Monarch not marry a Roman Catholic but no Roman Catholic can become Prime Minister?. Any Prime Minister who converted to Catholicism would HAVE to resign his/her office. Did you also know that the Royal Household ,which compromises THOUSANDS of employees, from maids to Private secretary's, is made up of LESS than 1% of "non-whites" and those that are not white occupy the lowest rungs of the Household ladder. One goverment minister, who was of African-British origin, attended a State Banquet in 2001 and said, " I was shocked when I entered Buckingham Palace. Within seconds I moved from the streets of London, which was full of black, Chinese, Hindu people etc and numerous facets of the Christian faith into a world completely white and Church of England. It frightened me that this was the domain of our Head of State and yet her court was totally out of step with the people she represented". Is it any wonder that Prince Harry and his upper class cronies think it is acceptable to blacken their faces for a laugh and in Harry's own case, stress to his father that his girlfriend "Isn't black or anything" when such attitudes are ingrained in his social strata.

I applaud you James... I was thinking the same thing yesterday, but didn't post it, about how England is as multiculturally diverse as America and Canada, yet the government, nor the royal court reflects this diversity. It's funny how some people believe that racism doesn't exist anymore, or to some it hardly exists, but they tend to miss the subtle form that it takes on like institutional racism. I must say that I never expected to hear or see this kind of outright disrespect for other people by a member of the British Royal Family, wait, I forgot about everytime Prince Philip opens his mouth..I just wasn't expecting it from the youngest generation of the royal family, but here it is for all to see.
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  #195  
Old 01-19-2005, 12:26 AM
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And you know what else gets me. Is how all those Euros and other ppl who don't know what the heck they are talking about say that Americans are close-minded! They don't realixe how much diversityu is such a huge goal in this country: in our schools, businesses, etc. Oh ye hypocrites! Now of course not everyone is like that, but we knwo what a big fuss Europe and others have made.
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  #196  
Old 01-19-2005, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
And you know what else gets me. Is how all those Euros and other ppl who don't know what the heck they are talking about say that Americans are close-minded! They don't realixe how much diversityu is such a huge goal in this country: in our schools, businesses, etc. Oh ye hypocrites! Now of course not everyone is like that, but we knwo what a big fuss Europe and others have made.
Yes, but the US government also doesn't really reflect the diversity in the country; it's made up very disproportionately of rich white men, and the idea of a female president is more theoretical than a real possibility at this point. In places like California, where there are a lot of central American and Asian immigrants, diversity is pretty much taken for granted, but I've travelled across the USA a couple of times and been struck by the insular attitudes in some parts of the country. I think it's really a case that most of the industrialised west is less tolerant of diversity than it likes to think, especially higher up the socioeconomic ladder.

This is apparently one area where Prince Charles has improved things a bit relative to some of the older royals - having more of his advisors (as opposed to just his housemaids) come from backgrounds different from his own. I don't think he's made huge strides in that direction or anything, but it sounds as though he's done some movement in the direction of hiring people on merit rather than because they have the "right" background.
  #197  
Old 01-19-2005, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
Yes, but the US government also doesn't really reflect the diversity in the country; it's made up very disproportionately of rich white men, and the idea of a female president is more theoretical than a real possibility.
I realize that America still has a way to go on issues of diversity, but so does England. Especially when you have it's royals who suppose to represent all of their people, yet instead William and Harry are going around attending parties with racist themes, and dressing in costumes that evoked fear and terror (Harry) for a group of it's own citizens. You're right, the US government is disproportionate....I don't know the exact numbers, but at least on the governmental level, people of color and women are holding government postions....can the same be said about England's government? I mean how diversified is England's government? If I'm wrong, then by all means correct me.
.
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  #198  
Old 01-19-2005, 08:31 PM
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Sommone very good point, and your right at the rate we let people into our country it will be 1 white per 10 coloured, at the moment its about 2 white to 1 coloured, depending which part, cos over here there are no go areas for whites, its a turn around of years gone by, yet no top jobs as you say !

but just as well cos when they do they might ship us all off to Africa, 1 way ticket
  #199  
Old 01-19-2005, 08:51 PM
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Please keep the subject of this discussion royal related. America's immigration policy has no baring on this discussion.

Thank you.

Alexandria,
Royal Forums Administrator
  #200  
Old 01-19-2005, 09:21 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
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Quote:
I realize that America stil has a way to go on issues of diversity, but so does England. Especially when you have it's royals who suppose to represent all of their people, instead they are going around attending parties with racist themes, and dressing in costumes that evoked fear and terror for a group of it's own citizens.
Well, so far it's only been one royal going to the party and dressing in a Nazi costume; it isn't as though they're all doing it! As far as parties with tasteless themes, that's sort of what you get when people have more money than sense, and there'll always be some of those around.
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