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  #1061  
Old 11-11-2013, 04:42 PM
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In the United Kingdom [technically] only the Peer/Peeress is noble . Their spouse, siblings, children and grandchildren may or may not have titles, but they do so by courtesy. I'm my opinion you are correct BrazilianEmpire, Ms Bonas is of noble descent, but not noble herself.
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  #1062  
Old 11-11-2013, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Cepe, Diana was not required to change religions because she was a member of the CoE marrying the Prince of Wales.

Mathilde was a Roman Catholic marrying a Roman Catholic, ditto Stephanie. In each case there would have been no reason to change a thing.

A quick run through of the Guillaume/Stephanie Mathilde/Philippe threads here on TRF as well as other message boards will confirm that quite a few posters posited these were indeed arranged marriage because they was so sudden, and because no one knew the groom(s) were dating. The sexual preferences of both men were and are questioned to this day.

This was never done in the case of non-aristocrat Letizia Rocasolano. The public did know they were dating until the day the engagement was announced, yet no one speculated that it was not a genuine love match.

BrazilianEmpire, my point about Cressida's title or lack of is simply that she is not considered from the working class. Her ancestors are not cab drivers, coal-miners, schoolteachers, etc.
That's what I meant when I said "right" religion - no need to change; no controversy in that regard.
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  #1063  
Old 11-11-2013, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
BrazilianEmpire, my point about Cressida's title or lack of is simply that she is not considered from the working class. Her ancestors are not cab drivers, coal-miners, schoolteachers, etc.
Okay, but the world is not divided between working class and aristocracy.

Cressida is just a wealthy commoner, like tons of people in the United Kingdom and the rest of the world.

And you said schoolteachers are working class, but Lady Diana Spencer was a schooldteacher and an aristocrat.
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  #1064  
Old 11-11-2013, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Okay, but the world is not divided between working class and aristocracy.

Cressida is just a wealthy commoner, like tons of people in the United Kingdom and the rest of the world.

And you said schoolteachers are working class, but Lady Diana Spencer was a schooldteacher and an aristocrat.
Working class is much misused term. I wouldn't call the Middletons working class, they are middle class. In this day and age, people's effort and intellect establish them rather than what their ancestors did.

Schoolteachers in UK would not be considered working class in general terms (although individual teachers might consider themselves working class).

Diana wasn't a school teacher, she was a nursery assistant (no qualifications).
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  #1065  
Old 11-11-2013, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Working class is much misused term. I wouldn't call the Middletons working class, they are middle class. In this day and age, people's effort and intellect establish them rather than what their ancestors did.

Schoolteachers in UK would not be considered working class in general terms (although individual teachers might consider themselves working class).

Diana wasn't a school teacher, she was a nursery assistant (no qualifications).
Thanks for the clarification, cepe.

Working class really sounds like a Marxist/Communist term.
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  #1066  
Old 11-11-2013, 05:30 PM
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Cressida trained to become a dancer (although I agree that 24/25 is old to be jut starting one's dancing career) long before she ever met Harry. I do not think her change in careers is solely to "nail a Prince". Most people change careers in their life-time. Many change careers because they can not find a job in their chosen field. some realize that they do not like their career. For many women, falling in love or starting a family has them re-focusing on what they want to do with their lives.

Cressida has not given up a career in cutting edge physics or medicine, just to party with Harry. She went to college to become a dancer..... None of us have seen her perform, she may not have the skill to succeed in this very competitive field. Or realized that she might be getting jobs solely on her relationship with Harry.

But people change their minds all the time about their career.
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  #1067  
Old 11-11-2013, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Peter Phillips and Zara Tindall, for example, are commoners who happen to have The Queen as grandmother. Their mother being a Princess doesn't make them Royalty. So, Cressida's mother being a Lady and her grandfather an Earl will not make her an aristocrat.
Peter and Zara may be technically commoners, but they are de facto Royalty. They might have no Royal styles or titles, but they know which fork to use, and for similar reasons, so does Cressida. And that's why her background is relevant. She might have less experience with mixing in the highest of high society, but she still has a head start over daughters of families with no aristocratic connections. She knows how to behave, even if she doesn't always do it.
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  #1068  
Old 11-11-2013, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Okay, but the world is not divided between working class and aristocracy.

Cressida is just a wealthy commoner, like tons of people in the United Kingdom and the rest of the world.

And you said schoolteachers are working class, but Lady Diana Spencer was a schooldteacher and an aristocrat.
Who said that it was, and why are we engaging in hair splitting here?

There are quite a few newspapers and other media that routinely identify Bonas as aristocratic or of "noble descent" as you have described it. I am hardly the first or the only one.I agree that it's not important at all, but the great perception to much of the outside world of Royalty watchers is that Prince Harry is dating an aristocrat.

Catherine Middleton is my idea of a wealthy commoner, not Cressida Bonas. JMHO.

And I am neither Marxist nor Communist, be assured.
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  #1069  
Old 11-11-2013, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
Peter and Zara may be technically commoners, but they are de facto Royalty. They might have no Royal styles or titles, but they know which fork to use, and for similar reasons, so does Cressida. And that's why her background is relevant. She might have less experience with mixing in the highest of high society, but she still has a head start over daughters of families with no aristocratic connections. She knows how to behave, even if she doesn't always do it.

How to behave?
Would you say her mother (who is after all, the daughter of an earl) knows how to behave as well? Yet she posed half-naked and coated with motor oil for the cover of a book called Birds of Britain. Then too, she's been involved in plenty of scandal and has had four failed marriages.

If Carole Middleton had done anything remotely like that, everyone would jeer and say what can anyone expect from someone without any aristocratic connections.
Yet she's not the one who didn't behave herself, is she?

That's why I think her background is totally irrelevant; there's more to classy behavior than knowing the right fork to use.
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  #1070  
Old 11-11-2013, 05:54 PM
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Knowing what fork to use can be taught. Having photographers follow your every move and having the press follow everything you wear and criticize it, is some thing that has to be endured if you are dating a prince. A lot of people would not be able to hack it. A lot also would not want to give up their personal freedom and have them and their entire family scrutinized.
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  #1071  
Old 11-11-2013, 05:55 PM
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Peter and Zara may be technically commoners, but they are de facto Royalty. They might have no Royal styles or titles, but they know which fork to use, and for similar reasons, so does Cressida. And that's why her background is relevant. She might have less experience with mixing in the highest of high society, but she still has a head start over daughters of families with no aristocratic connections. She knows how to behave, even if she doesn't always do it.
I can remember the assumption that because Diana's father was an Earl she was used to mixing in royal circles and knew how to behave - but she didn't and it made her a bag of nerves.

It isn't aristocratic circles that helps, it's being part of the inner royal circle and neither of Cressida's parents are in that. And having a title is not a ticket into that exclusive circle.

You are right that she has aristocratic connections but she is not an aristocrat.
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  #1072  
Old 11-11-2013, 06:04 PM
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If my son wanted to marry, my first question in regards to his fiancee would be: "Does she come from a good family?". For me a good family is composed of people who honestly earn their living, have good morals and value family and tradition. Most likely, it is not different for the royals.
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  #1073  
Old 11-11-2013, 06:04 PM
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Diana Spencer did indeed know how to "behave".

She simply refused to do so, for a variety of very complicated reasons.
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  #1074  
Old 11-11-2013, 06:10 PM
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Diana Spencer did indeed know how to "behave".

She simply refused to do so, for a variety of very complicated reasons.
But she found it difficult to adjust to the inner royal circle. It isn't about "bad behaviour" or knowing which cutlery to use - it's their way of talking to each other; in jokes; which protocols are used and when - all sorts of in-family behaviour.

ITs like joining an exclusive club which has its own rules - and they dont tell you what they are
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  #1075  
Old 11-11-2013, 06:11 PM
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And I am neither Marxist nor Communist, be assured.
I never meant to say this. I'm sorry, I was just saying that "working class" sounds like a Communist or Marxist term, not that you are a Communist or a Marxist.
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  #1076  
Old 11-11-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Argie View Post
If my son wanted to marry, my first question in regards to his fiancee would be: "Does she come from a good family?". For me a good family is composed of people who honestly earn their living, have good morals and value family and tradition. Most likely, it is not different for the royals.
Excellent Argie. I couldn't agree more.
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  #1077  
Old 11-11-2013, 06:14 PM
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Knowing what fork to use can be taught.
"She knows which fork to use" is a figure of speech, meaning that because of her background she knows how to behave in any social context and will look and feel at ease in a formal social context. I believe she has a head start in this regard over someone who has no aristocratic connections.


Quote:
Having photographers follow your every move and having the press follow everything you wear and criticize it, is some thing that has to be endured if you are dating a prince. A lot of people would not be able to hack it. A lot also would not want to give up their personal freedom and have them and their entire family scrutinized.
Agreed. No matter what her background she might hate this, but from what I have seen she seems able to cope.
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  #1078  
Old 11-11-2013, 06:19 PM
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But she found it difficult to adjust to the inner royal circle. It isn't about "bad behaviour" or knowing which cutlery to use - it's their way of talking to each other; in jokes; which protocols are used and when - all sorts of in-family behaviour.
Unless you've been a part of the family for a very long time, the best one can say is that they're familiar with it. Quite like working for the FBI, CIA, NCIS or Interpol. We can read about it, watch documentaries on how they work, envy them their lives of covert action and thrilling escapades but until we're actually a part of the organization and know the inside workings, we're just familiar.

Regardless of background, wealth, family or whether one prefers tea or coffee, any relationship that is getting serious and the question of marriage and life long commitment is a possibility, the first priority is and should be whether the couple love, respect and honor each other enough to run the gamut of whatever they may face together.
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  #1079  
Old 11-11-2013, 06:19 PM
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They might have no Royal styles or titles, but they know which fork to use, and for similar reasons, so does Cressida.
I know which fork to use, but I'm not a Royal.

Maybe "know which fork to use" is an english expression I'm not familiar with.
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  #1080  
Old 11-11-2013, 07:03 PM
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TRF is different from other royal forums. We actually try to be civil, a lot of the time. The rest of the time, the mods force us to use the sentient part of our natures.
Don't assume that we mean the vilest thing when we state something. Often we are stating exactly our opinion without hidden meanings.
Some here are trolls, but I stand up for Cepe when I say that her words don't throw concealed rocks.
Just my opinion.
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