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  #1181  
Old 04-15-2007, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk
I think it was a little of both...to boost up his grand daughter's chances and because at the time...Camilla had a past. Back then...it was "expected" that the wife to the heir to the throne would be a virgin. And Camilla was not. So while she had the breeding she didn't have the reputation so to speak.

I think William shoudl marry someone from the British artistocracy..and now he is finished with Kate...chances are he will. Someone from his crowd, who understandes his position. Not that Kate didn't. She was a nice pretty girl but she never set my world on fire. Not that it matters what I think

I am still rooting for Theodora of Greece!
Doesn't "Theodora G" want to be a pop singer or actress? Wouldn't the requirements of being Princess William put a dent in such ambitions? She would never take Prince William! Nah, like Isabella AGC (allegedly) she has other plans!

For other reasons, it's not a bad idea though. Lord M would have loved it! As she comes from the family of William's grandfather, she clearly has the "breeding" everyone finds so important. And they're not such close cousins that it is inappropriate. I think maybe they are fourth or fifth cousins. I hold it as a personal standard that to marry a Four or Above cousin is gross, but Theodora seems to just barely make the pass into safe ground.
And Daddy ex-King of G, Prince William's godfather, would be expected to encourage the match whereever possible, as it would certainly legitimize the family again. Greece might even take him back if his daughter was married to Prince William.
It's funny what sort of effect Prince William might have on international diplomatic affairs. I wouldn't underestimate the effects of his quasi-celebrity status.
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  #1182  
Old 04-15-2007, 12:42 PM
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I think it was more that there was still an expectation that the heir to the throne would not marry a commoner.

When Charles was still dating, I remember reading that Princess Anne and (then Crown Prince) Carl Gustaf of Sweden were introduced to see if they clicked so the expectations that royals would marry royals had not entirely gone away. To marry the daughter of an old established titled family, yes, but still there were still British royals marrying other royals - the Duke of Kent and Princess Marina of Greece, Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip.

I imagine that the idea of having the future Queen of England being the daughter of a former wine merchant would have been a bit much for the Royal Family to swallow back then.
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  #1183  
Old 04-15-2007, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
I think it was more that there was still an expectation that the heir to the throne would not marry a commoner.

When Charles was still dating, I remember reading that Princess Anne and (then Crown Prince) Carl Gustaf of Sweden were introduced to see if they clicked so the expectations that royals would marry royals had not entirely gone away. To marry the daughter of an old established titled family, yes, but still there were still British royals marrying other royals - the Duke of Kent and Princess Marina of Greece, Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip.

I imagine that the idea of having the future Queen of England being the daughter of a former wine merchant would have been a bit much for the Royal Family to swallow back then.
This is true.. but the examples you mention happened in the 30/40's...it wasn't happening during the 60/70's. Wasn't the last true royal marriage...Anne Marie and Constantine of Greece? Has there been anyone else? By the time Charles was dating, Caroline of Monaco and Marie Astrid were candidates...despite the fact that both were Roman Catholics.

As someone previously mentioned.....non Roman Catholic princessess are in short supply. Plus once, the Duke of York married Lady Elizabeth Bowles Lyon, then the Duke of Gloucester married Lady Alice Montagu Scott...it was somewhat of a surprise that the Duke of Kent married Marina of Greece.
  #1184  
Old 04-15-2007, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk
This is true...but it was more of rare occurence during the 60/70's. Wasn't the last true royal marriage...Anne Marie and Constantine of Greece? Has there been anyone else? By the time Charles was dating, Caroline of Monaco and Marie Astrid were candidates...despite the fact that both were Roman Catholics.

As someone previously mentioned.....non Roman Catholic princessess are in short supply. Plus once, the Duke of York married Lady Elizabeth Bowles Lyon, then the Duke of Gloucester married Lady Alice Montagu Scott...it was somewhat of a surprise that the Duke of Kent married Marina of Greece.
It was becoming rarer but it was by no means unheard of. The fact that Marie-Astrid and Caroline were bandied about as possible candidates showed that the idea of royals marrying royals was not yet considered far-fetched or unlikely in the 70s. In fact Marie-Astrid later married an Archduke of Austria and Caroline later married a Prince of Hannover even though the Hapsburgs and the Hannovers had long been deposed as ruling royal families.

I think the British royal family was ready for the heir to the throne to marry into the titled aristocracy and they may have been ready for some lesser royals like Princess Margaret, Princess Anne, and Prince Andrew to marry commoners, but I don't think they were quite ready yet in 1973 or whenever Charles and Camilla first met to accept a non-titled bride for Charles.
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  #1185  
Old 04-15-2007, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
but I don't think they were quite ready yet in 1973 or whenever Charles and Camilla first met to accept a non-titled bride for Charles.
You might be onto something. Maybe the "queenmaker" courtiers in the 70s were willing to toy with ideas of Queen Jane (Wellesley) or Queen Amanda because Lady Jane, although not royal, was descended from the historial heroic Duke of Wellington and Amanda must be a great-great-great-granddaughter of Queen Victoria, right? They considered the Ladies Spencer perhaps they came with the express recommendations of Lady Fermoy, the Queen Mother's dear, dear companion. So you make a good point. Even though in the 70s, aristocratic ladies were being considered, they had to be very, very special exceptional ones indeed!
  #1186  
Old 04-15-2007, 01:29 PM
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Sirikitiya Jensen (another Princess from Thailand who was born in 1985) attends college in NY
http://www.thainewyork.com/albums/si..._jensen_05.jpg[/quote]



She's really pretty!
  #1187  
Old 04-15-2007, 01:36 PM
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Prince William and Charlotte Casiraghi would be a really pretty couple
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  #1188  
Old 04-15-2007, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio
You might be onto something. Maybe the "queenmaker" courtiers in the 70s were willing to toy with ideas of Queen Jane (Wellesley) or Queen Amanda because Lady Jane, although not royal, was descended from the historial heroic Duke of Wellington and Amanda must be a great-great-great-granddaughter of Queen Victoria, right? They considered the Ladies Spencer perhaps they came with the express recommendations of Lady Fermoy, the Queen Mother's dear, dear companion. So you make a good point. Even though in the 70s, aristocratic ladies were being considered, they had to be very, very special exceptional ones indeed!
The late Queen Elizabeth was an aristocrat, being a daughter of the Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne.

The late Diana Princess of Wales was an aristocrat, being a daughter of the Earl Spencer.

The present Princess Michael of Kent is an aristocrat, being a daughter of Hubertus Baron von der Recke and of Maria Anna Countess Szapáry de Muraszombath, Széchysziget et Szapár.

Princess Adelaide of Cambridge married an aristocrat, Franz Count von Hohenstein, who was created Duke of Teck (their daughter Mary would marry the later King George V).

So marriages within the aristocracy is nothing new. See also Henry VIII and his many wives.....
  #1189  
Old 04-15-2007, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliana
Problem with marrying "common" commoners is that soon our royals will be just the same as the folk down the street.
The way William behaves at the moment is not better than the way folk down the street behave - only difference is the price tag on their choice of booze.
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  #1190  
Old 04-15-2007, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
The late Queen Elizabeth was an aristocrat, being a daughter of the Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne.

The late Diana Princess of Wales was an aristocrat, being a daughter of the Earl Spencer.

The present Princess Michael of Kent is an aristocrat, being a daughter of Hubertus Baron von der Recke and of Maria Anna Countess Szapáry de Muraszombath, Széchysziget et Szapár.

Princess Adelaide of Cambridge married an aristocrat, Franz Count von Hohenstein, who was created Duke of Teck (their daughter Mary would marry the later King George V).

So marriages within the aristocracy is nothing new. See also Henry VIII and his many wives.....
But the late Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother married a Duke of York no one really expected to be King. And Baroness Marie Christine married a very marginal first cousin of the Queen..... I think ysbel and others were pointing out that historically the Prince of Wales was expected to marry royally or very, very specially.
Queen Mary was formerly Princess "May" or Mary of Teck, a German royal from the House of Et Cetera Coburg.... she was engaged to an Heir of the Heir Apparent, then to his brother when he died. The Tecks changed their names/titles because of anti-German racism but they were still royal. Prince Henry of Gloucester married in aristocracy, but he again was not or ever expected to be a king, but merely a much younger king's son.
  #1191  
Old 04-15-2007, 02:25 PM
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Everyone had made valid points regarding "royal princessess" vs. aristocrats/commoners as potential royal brides. And yes, those artisocrat girls married men who were not expected to be Kings but the fact remains as such....1) most people (royal or not) marry people in their social circle. Who are the young ladies in William and Henry's social circles. Girls they meet at uni (Kate and to some extent Chelsy) or girls they meet at parties, polo field, etc. and 2) Protestant princesses (or not Catholic) are a RARE RARE thing. Can anyone name five with three to five age gap?! By age gap I mean either 3 to 5 years older or younger? All I need is five!

You know the one young royal heir who will have his choice of royal brides?! Christian of Denmark!
  #1192  
Old 04-15-2007, 02:40 PM
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Five? Hmm... Protestant royal brides for...
For Prince William.....
1) Princess Madeleine of Sweden
2) Theodora of Greece
3) Scilla ???Ruffo di CAlabrida (?)
4) Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden
5)

Ah, darn, I'm one short.
  #1193  
Old 04-15-2007, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio
But the late Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother married a Duke of York no one really expected to be King. And Baroness Marie Christine married a very marginal first cousin of the Queen..... I think ysbel and others were pointing out that historically the Prince of Wales was expected to marry royally or very, very specially.
Queen Mary was formerly Princess "May" or Mary of Teck, a German royal from the House of Et Cetera Coburg.... she was engaged to an Heir of the Heir Apparent, then to his brother when he died. The Tecks changed their names/titles because of anti-German racism but they were still royal. Prince Henry of Gloucester married in aristocracy, but he again was not or ever expected to be a king, but merely a much younger king's son.
Considering the fact that Kate Middleton and Chelsey Davy, alike Mette-Marit Tjessem Hoiby, Mary Donaldson, Letizia Ortiz Rocasolano and Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti seems not to have met any problem at the court being non noble, makes me think that any little Czech Baroness would already be a miracle.

If even the very Catholic and very royal Prince of Asturias can marry a divorced news anchor, what can we say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio
Five? Hmm... Protestant royal brides for...
For Prince William.....
1) Princess Madeleine of Sweden
2) Theodora of Greece
3) Scilla ???Ruffo di CAlabrida (?)
4) Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden
5)

Ah, darn, I'm one short.
A Princess of Greece and Denmark is usually Orthodox and a Donna dei principi Ruffo di Calabria is usually Roman Catholic.

Furthermore is Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden, as Thronefollower, a most unlikely choice. That leaves Princess Madeleine.

But we can be short on this: we have never ever seen Prince William, Prince Harry, Princess Beatrice, Princess Eugenie on the events on the Continent, where the Almanach de Gotha assembles (weddings, jubilees, inaugurations, baptisms, funerals, family vacations, sailing trips). So their chances to meet an 'equal' continental partner are minimal.
  #1194  
Old 04-15-2007, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
A Princess of Greece and Denmark is usually Orthodox and a Donna dei principi Ruffo di Calabria is usually Roman Catholic.
I know, I realized my mistake after I already hit the button to submit! So she's out.... Darn, Zonk is right, it's hard!
Quote:
Furthermore is Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden, as Thronefollower, a most unlikely choice. That leaves Princess Madeleine.
But we can be short on this: we have never ever seen Prince William, Prince Harry, Princess Beatrice, Princess Eugenie on the events on the Continent, where the Almanach de Gotha assembles (weddings, jubilees, inaugurations, baptisms, funerals, family vacations, sailing trips). So their chances to meet an 'equal' continental partner are minimal.
All are unlikely, but I had to try....

You're absolutely right in everything you have pointed, Henri. Most of the posts here lately are impressively accurate. I was just pointing that the shift from royal brides to aristocracy was a slow progress, even slower for the Prince of Wales, taking up more speed in late 1970s, and now being quite normal, with the Countess of Wessex, The Duchess of Cornwall.... Henry VIII is not really a good example because he was quite exceptional for many reasons. He married three of six commoners, two royals, and one upper aristocrat.
1) Princess Catherine of Aragon (royal)
2) Anne Bolelyn (lady-in-waiting, commoner)
3) Jane Howard
4) Princess Anne of Cleves (royal)
5) Katherine Howard (Duke of Norfolk's neice????)
6) Another Katherine, Parry?
  #1195  
Old 04-15-2007, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio
Queen Mary was formerly Princess "May" or Mary of Teck, a German royal from the House of Et Cetera Coburg.... she was engaged to an Heir of the Heir Apparent, then to his brother when he died. The Tecks changed their names/titles because of anti-German racism but they were still royal. Prince Henry of Gloucester married in aristocracy, but he again was not or ever expected to be a king, but merely a much younger king's son.
She was the daughter of a morganatic cousin of the king of Wuerttemberg with only the title of "Count" to his name. When it turned out that due to her being fat (or simple or both) nobody was going to marry princess Adelaide of Cambridge but this Count, his Royal cousin created him Duke of Teck. So not really German Royality, no.
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  #1196  
Old 04-15-2007, 03:36 PM
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Thank you Henri M...you totally validated my 1st and 2nd points.

If William and Henry are not in the social circle of other young royals, how do we expect them to marry one of them? Now I would agree, that they are certainly a little too young to attend certain events, although Madeline of Sweden attends them.

Alexandra of Luexmbourg...what is her religious fatih? Is she Catholic?
  #1197  
Old 04-15-2007, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk
Thank you Henri M...you totally validated my 1st and 2nd points.

If William and Henry are not in the social circle of other young royals, how do we expect them to marry one of them? Now I would agree, that they are certainly a little too young to attend certain events, although Madeline of Sweden attends them.

Alexandra of Luexmbourg...what is her religious fatih? Is she Catholic?
Yep, she's Catholic. I tried listing five just for fun, but it's hard: Grimaldis, Catholic; Liechtensteins, Catholic; Belgians, Catholic; Luxembourg, cAtholic; Borbón, Catholic........ Are the Dutch royals Catholic? I wasn't sure, but in any case, I couldn't even think of anyone age-appropriate.
  #1198  
Old 04-15-2007, 03:46 PM
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Now that's pretty sad...we "royal expert's" can't even come up with five non Catholic age appropriate princesses! So let's move onto to five to ten years?! Any takers?

Its going to be a "common" girl or someone from the artistocracy.
  #1199  
Old 04-15-2007, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
But we can be short on this: we have never ever seen Prince William, Prince Harry, Princess Beatrice, Princess Eugenie on the events on the Continent, where the Almanach de Gotha assembles (weddings, jubilees, inaugurations, baptisms, funerals, family vacations, sailing trips). So their chances to meet an 'equal' continental partner are minimal.
Any possibilities that young British meet their continental cousins unofficial? If not that mean that they could married only a British born girls/boys.
  #1200  
Old 04-15-2007, 03:55 PM
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I think the only young royal lady they have met unofficially is Theodora of Greece. But anything is possible.
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