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  #541  
Old 08-06-2006, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenngirl
I CAN see your point that this could be a problem. However, since Prince Philip was able to marry the Queen why wouldn't William be able to marry Theodora?

I know NOTHING of Greek politics, (and know that we are not supposed to bring them up) however, is there any issue about the Royals now? Has the British Royal Family even visited Greece recently?

Another thing, why would Greece care? If Greece sent the Family away, how could they have control over who they married now? Would the Russian government interfer if William wanted to marry a Romanov princess? Or Germany a German princess? How much control does a country have over its former Royalty? Its not like she will make William go to war to put her dad back on the throne!
Well, the issue I think the Greek government has with the Greek royals is that the meddling of Constantine caused the takeover by the Communist? forces (or was it a military dictatorship?). The Greek royals are always poncing around jabbering about how much they love Greece and are Greek, however the Greeks want nothing to do with the royals. I think Greece would be offended since it would be gushed over by the press as a royal union despite the fact that Theodora is not legally recognized as royalty, as an official representative of Greece. For her to pass herself off as one would cause awkwardness since the Greek royals are still clinging to pretentions and are not maintaining a low profile.

The reason the Russian government wouldn't care (I think) if William wanted a Romanov Grand Duchess (They are Grand Duchesses, not Princesses) is that the Romanovs have worked very hard to stay as low profile as possible and have never gone on television and described their love for the Russian people and pranced around blatantly displaying their royal jewels and orders with prominence. I think the fact that many of them were wiped out by the Bolsheviks have encouraged them to play it safe.

When the Greeks were initially overthrown they were pretty quiet and Philip is/was royal himself so it was a pretty decent match, good for a future queen. He also renounced his royal title and lineage by changing his surname to Mountbatten and was titled Duke of Edinburgh on the morning of his wedding. He had to do this since he had to become an English subject to avoid hostility because of his German roots.

But now with Constantine running all over the place and Marie Chantal, I can't blame the Greek government if they got a little peeved. The Greeks have been a pretentious little thorn in the side of the Republic and as long as they keep this sort of thing up, the Greek government could become quite resentful of a marriage between Theodora and William since she would be described as a Greek royal despite the fact that the royal system was abolished quite some time ago. I think honestly that it would be socially astute, but politically unwise.
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  #542  
Old 08-06-2006, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wymanda
The problem with Theodora, or any of the products of current royal marriages, is that her parents married for love. She would not accept a marriage of convenience & I doubt that her parents would countenance such a marriage. Surprisingly I think Pavlos & M-C do love each other and Alexia certainly married for love so I doubt that King Constantine & Queen Anne-Marie would want anything less for their younger daughter.
Of course Theodora and William should not marry for love. But it is possible that they could fall in love.
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  #543  
Old 08-06-2006, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiyo
From purely a genetic standpoint, I think it would be best to have some more "common" blood enter the bloodline to try and undo some of the damage that hundreds of years of royal inbreeding has done.
I know a lot about the royal genealogy of Britain and how they are all related, and there is pretty much none of those effects from inbreeding left, certainly not in William's direct line. And William and Theodora are very distantly related, so there would be no danger. The Queen Mother and Diana both put aristocratic (Not royal) blood into the line, which is not related to the direct royal family really at all, prior to them entering the family. They've definitely had enough common blood and there is no more damage left to undo, and there hardly ever was in the Kingdom of Britain compared to other royal families.
  #544  
Old 08-06-2006, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimebear
As much as Theodora may be a good match for William in other ways, let's not forget that as King of England, William will have a role in the British government. The Greek government may not look to kindly at the idea of the daughter of their deposed monarch sitting on the throne of England as William's consort. Political considerations most likely will factor into her suitability.

This doesn't really matter. Prince Philip was born a prince of Greece, does it cause any problems with the Greek government? Not that I'm aware of. Perhaps if the future Queen of England was the King of Greece's daughter it could somhow stir the Greek govt. to restore the monarchy!! Which they should do regardless.
  #545  
Old 08-06-2006, 08:46 AM
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In the words of Lady Montdore, "Whoever invented love should be shot". Theodora and William would be a perfect match. Look at Grand Duke Jean and Princess Josephine-Charlotte of Belgium. An arranged marriage but they learned to love one another and were perfect for Luxembourg.
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  #546  
Old 08-06-2006, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzu An
Well, the issue I think the Greek government has with the Greek royals is that the meddling of Constantine caused the takeover by the Communist? forces (or was it a military dictatorship?). The Greek royals are always poncing around jabbering about how much they love Greece and are Greek, however the Greeks want nothing to do with the royals. I think Greece would be offended since it would be gushed over by the press as a royal union despite the fact that Theodora is not legally recognized as royalty, as an official representative of Greece. For her to pass herself off as one would cause awkwardness since the Greek royals are still clinging to pretentions and are not maintaining a low profile.

The reason the Russian government wouldn't care (I think) if William wanted a Romanov Grand Duchess (They are Grand Duchesses, not Princesses) is that the Romanovs have worked very hard to stay as low profile as possible and have never gone on television and described their love for the Russian people and pranced around blatantly displaying their royal jewels and orders with prominence. I think the fact that many of them were wiped out by the Bolsheviks have encouraged them to play it safe.

When the Greeks were initially overthrown they were pretty quiet and Philip is/was royal himself so it was a pretty decent match, good for a future queen. He also renounced his royal title and lineage by changing his surname to Mountbatten and was titled Duke of Edinburgh on the morning of his wedding. He had to do this since he had to become an English subject to avoid hostility because of his German roots.

But now with Constantine running all over the place and Marie Chantal, I can't blame the Greek government if they got a little peeved. The Greeks have been a pretentious little thorn in the side of the Republic and as long as they keep this sort of thing up, the Greek government could become quite resentful of a marriage between Theodora and William since she would be described as a Greek royal despite the fact that the royal system was abolished quite some time ago. I think honestly that it would be socially astute, but politically unwise.
As a Greek Australian, I disagree with your post above 100%. Everything you wrote is wrong in my mind.
  #547  
Old 08-06-2006, 11:03 AM
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Prince Phillip married QE long before Constantine was removed from the throne. He has not been referred to as a Prince of Greece since before his marriage, so I don't think the Greek government takes offense at his being the Queen's consort. However, Theodora's father is the reason that the Greek monarchy was abolished. Feelings there are probably still a bit raw. I know that the Greek president refused to attend the royal wedding of CP Naruhito and CP Masako because Constantine was given an invitation addressed to him as "King of the Hellenes". As far as a Romanov Grand Duchess, the Russian Revolution was almost a century ago. It's not quite the same thing.
  #548  
Old 08-06-2006, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiyo
From purely a genetic standpoint, I think it would be best to have some more "common" blood enter the bloodline to try and undo some of the damage that hundreds of years of royal inbreeding has done.
this is a funny post....since we haven't seen any children born with birth defects that would come from "inbreeding" it doesn't appear to be a problem worth worrying about.
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  #549  
Old 08-06-2006, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimebear
Prince Phillip married QE long before Constantine was removed from the throne. He has not been referred to as a Prince of Greece since before his marriage, so I don't think the Greek government takes offense at his being the Queen's consort. However, Theodora's father is the reason that the Greek monarchy was abolished. Feelings there are probably still a bit raw. I know that the Greek president refused to attend the royal wedding of CP Naruhito and CP Masako because Constantine was given an invitation addressed to him as "King of the Hellenes". As far as a Romanov Grand Duchess, the Russian Revolution was almost a century ago. It's not quite the same thing.
I still don't think the Greek government would be ''offended'' or angry if Theodora married William. Especially not if she renounced her Title of Princess of Greece and Denmark and claim to the Greek Throne, like Prince Philip did. And Prince Philip is still of the same lineage (grandson of King of Greece) even if he did ''renounce'' it and the Greek government doesn't care. And really does it matter if the Greek govt. is a little offended. It's not like Greece is the most important country in the world or anything.
  #550  
Old 08-06-2006, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess
this is a funny post....since we haven't seen any children born with birth defects that would come from "inbreeding" it doesn't appear to be a problem worth worrying about.
Not all birth defects are visible.
  #551  
Old 08-06-2006, 01:10 PM
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Theodora is not a suitable candidate as the daughter of a deposed King who has always been viewed with mixed feelings by the British Government.

William will very likely marry a British aristocrat.
  #552  
Old 08-06-2006, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felicia
It's not like Greece is the most important country in the world or anything.
I'm sure the 10,000,000+ citizens of Greece would disagree with you.
  #553  
Old 08-06-2006, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissy57
Isn't this what his father did - chose a woman who was suitable for the position but not the one he loved? Do we really want a repeat?
Ok, here goes . I think you have misunderstood what I meant, in that I am not at all advocating an arranged marriage. Not at all. What I meant (and I also want to add that mine was a hypothetical arguement, not connected whatsoever to Kate Middleton or a negative reflection on her) was that he should marry a woman he can love, but that he should also marry a suitable one. For instance, hypothetically, if he were to date Jane Smith, who was universally deemed unacceptable and inappropriate, he ought not to marry her. But if he then dated Mary Kerr, who seemed suitable and had no huge skeletons in her closet, then by all means, he ought to marry her. He ought not marry simply for duty, but neither, in my opinion, should he marry simply for love...he must consider both when deciding. And futhermore, popularity is not a constant. At present, he is popular as the son of Charles and Diana, but has in reality done few royal engagements, due to school and now the army. It remains to be seen if he will be a popular Prince of Wales or King, and to an extent that depends on his marriage in addition to his behaviour and work in his capacity as a senior member of the Royal Family.

As to my definition of a completely inappropriate girl, I'm afraid that you have completely misjudged me. I am not asking for a virgin princess educated in an Anglican convent who has never met an untitled person or anything equally ridiculous. I would deem someone inappropriate who is indiscreet, has too colourful a past (for whatever reason), is lazy, or generally seems as thought they wouldn't fit into the royal lifestyle. I have to admit, it is difficult to describe, but in the words of US Justice Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it." You mentioned the other crown princesses/princesses: I was a little skeptical of Maxima because of her father, but her behaviour has changed my mine. I also like Mathile, Mary, Laurentien, Alexandra, all of Princess Margriet's daughters-in-law, Claire, Sophie (of Liechtenstein), Angela, and Sophie Wessex. The ones I am less fond of are Letizia, Mette Marit and Camilla, all of whom would meet my standards for inappropriate.

I have to disagree also with your assesment of how a marriage might hurt the country. You are completely correct that a disastrous arranged marriage could be highly detrimental, but to give an example of another way, one need only mention Wallis Simpson. Had she married Edward and he not abdicated, it could well have ended the monarchy, such was the widespread dislike of her and the idea of the twice-divorced American as queen. I think William shall have to find a very delicate balance...too far towards either way will never work.
  #554  
Old 08-06-2006, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Theodora is not a suitable candidate as the daughter of a deposed King who has always been viewed with mixed feelings by the British Government.

William will very likely marry a British aristocrat.
Rubbish. Theodora is the most suitable candidate there is. And you have no way of knowing who he will likely marry and who he will end up marrying. The King of Greece is very close to the British Royal Family and the Queen of England is Theodora's godmother. King Constantine is William's godfather.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiyo
Not all birth defects are visible.
There are no more ''birth defects'' as a result of ''inbreeding'' in the British Royal Family, and I'm not sure there ever were. The Hemophilia could have been related to ''inbreeding'', I'm not sure. It was probably a spontaneous mutation in Queen Victoria herself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimebear
I'm sure the 10,000,000+ citizens of Greece would disagree with you.
I am a citzizen of Greece. What I meant was Greece is not one of the most POLITICALLY important or strategic countries in the world (like America, China, etc). Of course the country of Greece is important but the world's future does not depend on what the Greek govt. thinks of a Princess of Greece marrying the future king of England. So I'm sure the 10, 000,000 + citzens of Greece would agree with me on that.
  #555  
Old 08-07-2006, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felicia
Rubbish. Theodora is the most suitable candidate there is.
My goodness! You certainly are keen on this Theodora bird.

Since Kate is the only 'serious' girlfriend William has had so far, and he seems very fond of her, I'd have to say that chances are he'll marry someone like her.
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  #556  
Old 08-07-2006, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn
My goodness! You certainly are keen on this Theodora bird.

Since Kate is the only 'serious' girlfriend William has had so far, and he seems very fond of her, I'd have to say that chances are he'll marry someone like her.
Sounds absolutely logical to me. Time will tell, though. He is still quite young
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  #557  
Old 08-07-2006, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felicia
I still don't think the Greek government would be ''offended'' or angry if Theodora married William. Especially not if she renounced her Title of Princess of Greece and Denmark and claim to the Greek Throne, like Prince Philip did. And Prince Philip is still of the same lineage (grandson of King of Greece) even if he did ''renounce'' it and the Greek government doesn't care. And really does it matter if the Greek govt. is a little offended. It's not like Greece is the most important country in the world or anything.
Why would she need to renounce her title as a Princess of Denmark? Surely if her Aunt Margarethe was happy enough for her to retain this part of her birthright then it has nothing to do with the Greek government. The greek royals were Princes of Denmark before Greece elected George I as King of the Hellenes. As Theodora is descended in both the male & female line from Christian IX she is entitled to be known as a Princess of Denmark.
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  #558  
Old 08-07-2006, 01:12 PM
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Wink

Regarding hemophilia in the British Royal family and inbreeding --

There's a lot of speculation as to how Queen Victoria turned out to be a hemophiliac carrier -- it would have to be her, since her husband was not a hemophiliac. (further explanation: Hemophilia is a mutation only on the X chromosome; if only one X in a female is affected the other will compensate for blood clotting. Since males only have one X chromosome, the mutation is always dominant / expressed in phenotype).

Regardless of this, you can look through her subsequent family tree and trace out all instances of hemophilia, and it would be safe to assume that many of the females are recessive carriers as well.

What does this have to do with inbreeding?

Well, for the Windsors, they are lucky because they escaped any carrier of the mutation in their line of the family tree --- while Philip is actually a decendant of Victoria as is Queen Elizabeth II, both of their genetic lines escaped the mutation.

The German, Spanish, and Russian families who all intermarried with the British royal family were not so lucky, with the Russian being the worst off ---

through Princess Beatrice (daughter of Q. Victoria - Albert), hemophilia spread via her marriage and issue to Henry Maurice of Battenburg. They had two hemophiliac sons and a carrier daughter, Eugenie.

Eugenie then married Alfonso XIII of Spain and ended up having two more hemophiliac sons, though these two did not have any issue so the hemophilia presumably died out since there are no further occurrences down the family tree.

Of more importance was Princess Alice, grand duchess of Hesse (again a daughter of Q. Victoria and Albert) who married into the German royal family via Ludvig IV, archduke of Hesse. Her daughter Alix was a carrier for hemophilia and carried the disease into the Russian ruling family, the ill -fated Romanovs. As a direct result of this disease, the entire course of Russian history was to be altered soon after.

So you can see, there is a certain amount of "inbreeding" in the royal families that end up resulting in several royal families across Europe having members with the same rare genetic condition. However like many genetic mutations it was a self-correcting issue since most affected members died too young to pass on their genes, or it was simply filtered out in future generations by outmarriages to people who did not have the gene.

It's certainly nowhere near as bad as ancient Egypt's tradition of sibling marriages (it's no wonder some of those pharaohs and queens were stark mad) and as far as the increased risk of genetic abnormalities goes, once you go past first cousinship it's very small.

As far as who William chooses to be his wife, unless he chooses his first cousins there's very small chance of anything really "bad" happening. Plus in this day and age you'd think the Royal family would look into genetic counseling to make sure that there isn't any potentially lethal or serious problem for the future children.
  #559  
Old 08-08-2006, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wymanda
Why would she need to renounce her title as a Princess of Denmark? Surely if her Aunt Margarethe was happy enough for her to retain this part of her birthright then it has nothing to do with the Greek government. The greek royals were Princes of Denmark before Greece elected George I as King of the Hellenes. As Theodora is descended in both the male & female line from Christian IX she is entitled to be known as a Princess of Denmark.
Yes I agree actually, she shouldn't have to renounce those titles at all. But did not Prince Philip have to renounce being a Prince of Greece and Denmark in order to marry the future Queen? So maybe Theodora would have to do the same in order to marry William?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn
My goodness! You certainly are keen on this Theodora bird.
Since Kate is the only 'serious' girlfriend William has had so far, and he seems very fond of her, I'd have to say that chances are he'll marry someone like her.
Chances are equally he might not. He might end up marrying Princess Theodora or who knows who! Plenty of time left. It would be a bit odd if he rushed in and married his first girlfriend, but I suppose that is a possibility. I can't see it happening myself.
  #560  
Old 08-08-2006, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odrade
Regarding hemophilia in the British Royal family and inbreeding...
Interesting post Odrade. I already knew all of it myself. As you explain though, the emergence of the hemophilia in Queen Victoria's son Leopold and as carriers in several of her daughters has nothing to do with QV marrying her first cousin Albert. It just started with Queen Victoria herself, since Albert was not a carrier at all. Even marriages to first cousins usually do produce perfectly healthy, normal children. There is very little genetic risk in marrying your first couisn and having children. However if you marry your DOUBLE first couisin or were, God forbid, going to have a child with your sibling or uncle or something, then the risks are quite high. So even if William were to marry a first cousin on his mother or father's side, probably there would be no bad outcome for the children. But of course he won't do this, as it would be frowned upon in general. Theodora is so distantly related to him there would be NO genetic risk. I'm not sure that Tsarevich Alexei being a hemophiliac was the sole reason for Russian history being changed as you say, there were other reasons as well for the Russian Royal Family being so greiveously killed.
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