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  #81  
Old 11-09-2007, 05:36 PM
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I agree it's a respectable profession but how is William different to Edward? All that seperates me from William is a pretty uniform and a trip to Boujis. When he's fought in the field, he's a soldier. IMO.
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  #82  
Old 11-09-2007, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
I agree it's a respectable profession but how is William different to Edward?
Edward did not complete training. William graduated from all his training, first the basic officers' training at Sandhurst, then occupational training with tanks and weapons. William is now a working soldier. Edward just did some officer program while at Oxford or something (was it Cambridge?) Anyway, he did not even finish that program..... so, it's different.
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  #83  
Old 11-09-2007, 05:42 PM
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If he's a working soldier what is he doing? What makes him a working soldier? Getting arsey about photographers? Marching in a pretty line in front of Granny?
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  #84  
Old 11-09-2007, 06:54 PM
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If not for those who stay behind, those who go to war would never get there or come back if they managed to make it. They'd also never get paid and when they weren't there, they'd starve. Calling those who don't go into battle just a "man in a costume" is not just wrong, it's rude and insulting.

Soldiers do many things other than fight wars. Bases need to administrated. The whole army requires a very large support system.

He managed to get through the program at Sandhurst and gain a commission in the Army. That's something most people couldn't or wouldn't do. That does make him a working soldier.

There's an army job explorer here if you'd like to explore it more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
I could do what William has done and it wouldn't make me a soldier would it?
It would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
to have William (who can never fight we're told) laying a wreath is as much as insult to his colleagues as it is for Tony Blair to lay a wreath.
People must have been insulted every year for a decade then, as Mr. Blair laid a wreath every year on behalf of the government. Gordon Brown will lay one this year, as will the Defence Minister and the Foreign Secretary, along with the Commonwealth high commissioners. The NAAFI will be marching in the parade, most likely as well.
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  #85  
Old 11-09-2007, 07:02 PM
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Hmm. Sorry, I don't buy it. I see this as yet another excuse for a Royal who'll never see active service to wear a uniform and be showered with medals.
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  #86  
Old 11-09-2007, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Hmm. Sorry, I don't buy it. I see this as yet another excuse for a Royal who'll never see active service to wear a uniform and be showered with medals.
Charles was never showered with medals for his military service (except for the Canadian Forces decoration, which is given to Colonels-in-Chief), so I don't see why William would be.
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  #87  
Old 11-09-2007, 08:26 PM
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William isnt showered with them hes only got one .
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  #88  
Old 11-09-2007, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Hmm. Sorry, I don't buy it. I see this as yet another excuse for a Royal who'll never see active service to wear a uniform and be showered with medals.
It is an interesting conumdrum. If you stand in a garage are you a car? On the other hand, if you go into the "service", you are a soldier or sailor, etc. I see your question, Beatrix Fan. Others are right the army is a profession. You can be a soldier and not serve in a war zone, but you must actually have a real job. It is that these people in question are just parading around and getting titles and medals and such for nothing. Philip was a sailor and a darned good one. Andrew did serve in a conflict. Why is it important that any of the princes dress up like soldiers and yet can never serve in any capacity? Why does Princess Anne dress up in that uniform? Where has she ever served in the line of duty with "her troops". So, in that respect it is a costume party.
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  #89  
Old 11-10-2007, 01:21 AM
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I have this vivid image of a young boy who was dispatched to London to make his people feel better after loosing his mother. I can’t begin to imagine what that must have like for him and his brother, yet he put a smile on his face and accepted flowers and shook hands. I have to admit I actually feel sorry William. He not only has to assume the responsibility of a job he has not chosen, but he must also carry the heavy burden of being his mother’s legacy, not to mention the pressure to exceed everyone’s expectation. We wonder why he seems so timid?

Should he be king? The job is his by birthright; the fact that he’s not exciting matters very little as far as I understand it. There have been far worse than a few boring kings, besides I’m not sure William is boring, dull or anything else for that matter. As far as we call tell, he avoids the media like it’s the plague and keep close to people who won’t easily get bribed for an exclusive.

People who don’t make a lot noise are often misunderstood. I’m also not convinced that wearing your feelings on your sleeves constitute a personality. Wisdom comes with age and experience; he’s only twenty-five so I think I will cut him some slack.

I’m not a fan of Kate, and I actually think he’s probably more comfortable with her than anything. I’m willing to bet he has fear of commitment due to what he witnessed between his parents.

Keep stirring the pot, it sure makes for an interesting read, although next time perhaps you could be a little more gentle and kind to William!
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  #90  
Old 11-10-2007, 01:36 AM
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I must be missing something. I don't understand why someone can't lay a wreath on the cenotaph if they are not/have not been a serving member of the armed forces.

And as for Edward, I think it must have taken courage to pull out of the course he did not want to be doing.
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  #91  
Old 11-10-2007, 01:45 AM
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I Hear Prince hilip was proud of him for it good on him for knowing his own mind.
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  #92  
Old 11-10-2007, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
If you're a soldier, you fight in war zones. If you don't, you're a man in a costume. Simple as. I could do what William has done and it wouldn't make me a soldier would it?

In a word - YES.

The job of soldier (or other serviceman) is far more than serving in war zones.

The majority of the British army at the moment isn't serving in a war zone but they are still doing a necessary job - getting ready, regrouping from having been, training those who will go (a very very important job and one that both William and Harry will have been doing with their troops even though they themselves can't go), administering the pay and equipment and making sure that it gets there (all those jobs are done by soldiers).

The soldiers who stand guard at BP are serving soldiers and also have a duty to perform, as do those whose current job is to simply guard the military posts where decisions are being made or other troops are being trained to go and fight. Many of these troops have never seen 'active' service in a war zone but they are professional servicemen and are entitled to be regarded as such.
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  #93  
Old 11-10-2007, 03:37 AM
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Skydragon, what is this your opinon is as follows I feel they are using the 'cover' of William to make it more acceptable. Is it because he is doing such a short time in the miitary or navy?
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  #94  
Old 11-10-2007, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
I must be missing something. I don't understand why someone can't lay a wreath on the cenotaph if they are not/have not been a serving member of the armed forces.

And as for Edward, I think it must have taken courage to pull out of the course he did not want to be doing.
I don't mean to pass judgement. I respect Edward for the personal choices he made. He pulled out of it, probably because it wasn't suited for him and I respect him for pulling out before he got in more entangled, if that makes sense. I just meant that Edward and William's cases are distinct, because Sam/beatrixfan had implied they are similar.

Having said that, Sam is entitled to his opinion, and as always his "stirring the pot" keeps us on our toes. But I maintain my stance.... Working soldier is a working soldier, regardless of war zone service, just as working sailor or working airman regardless of sea time or flying planes.
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  #95  
Old 11-10-2007, 01:02 PM
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I'm not stirring the pot, I'm just stating an opinion. One's that unpopular but I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way. Princess Anne wears a uniform when she really shouldn't but her work with the Armed Forces might just make it permissable in her case. As for William, he's done nothing in the Army. He has no job, he has no goal, he has no task - maybe they are using William as a cover for Edward. Which means Sophie's out of a job.
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  #96  
Old 11-10-2007, 01:51 PM
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BeatrixFan, it is not true that William has done nothing in the Army. He has done and passed all training courses. He has done all training that goes along his occupation in the Army.
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  #97  
Old 11-10-2007, 02:33 PM
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Ok then he's a trainee. And a trainee shouldn't lay a wreath when more experienced veterans have a bigger cause to do so. He's a boy playing VIP - it's very sad to watch.
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  #98  
Old 11-10-2007, 02:37 PM
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Well, every VIP is a trainee in the beginning. We all start out as boys and girls. William has to start somewhere.

But, honestly, Sam, I'm not trying to persist the argument. I get that you have your way of perceiving the situation. So I and many others don't agree exactly....

I will grant you that William has a long way to go before he will be taken seriously. That much I grant you.
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  #99  
Old 11-10-2007, 05:00 PM
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Trainee in what since. Is it that a 2nd Lt is considered to be a training rank even when you have finished your specialist training. Is that right? So is William still techically a trainee or not. Even if he is still trainee I do not see anything worng with him laying a wreath since he is in the Army.
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  #100  
Old 11-10-2007, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Ok then he's a trainee. And a trainee shouldn't lay a wreath when more experienced veterans have a bigger cause to do so. He's a boy playing VIP - it's very sad to watch.

I want to get this clear - in your opinion ALL the graduates from Sandhurst aren't soldiers until they have been in a war zone - right.

I think that you would be in the vast minority in that view.

ALL the graduates of Sandhurst get the same pay from the British government (public taxes) with only those actually serving getting a bit extra called 'danger money' but on return to Britian their pay returns to their pre-service rate (until they get promotion).

In short William is getting paid the same as any other graduate who graduated on the same day as him, who isn't currently serving in a war zone (and I doubt if all of them have served yet). Those who are currently serving will return to the same pay level as William when they return.

William has completed the initial training as a commissioned officer (something which the vast majority of soldiers in the field haven't done as they aren't commissioned officers and the training is harder for officers), and then, like most other officers done the next part of the training to serve in his chosen unit.

His job now is to train his men and to do other jobs on the base to assist and back up those who are serving in a war zone.

I would really like to know why you think that a trained officer who is being paid as an officer and doing officer's duties isn't a soldier when they are doing the job of a soldier? Soldiers actually spend the vast majority of their service time in non war zones and many never actually go to a war zone. As a British citizen you are paying a lot of soldiers to be soldiers who, in your opinion, aren't actually soldiers.

I think you need to write to your government with your definition of a soldier and insist that only those who are actually serving in war zones be paid like soldiers and referred to as soldiers while those who are training to go, arent' paid or called soldiers. William and Harry are training others to go because the government (the same one that is paying them as officers by the way) has said that they can't go.


You definition of a soldier is very, very, very, very narrow and excludes the majority of the army, by the way.

According to figures available in 2006 8,000 British soldiers were in Iraq and others serving elsewhere but that was the largest deployment but there were 109,000 soldiers. That would mean that quite a large percentage weren't in war zones and a reasonable percentage of that number wouldn't have seen any service in a war zone at that time due to the fact that since they joined their unit that unit hadn't been deployed to a war zone. As the numbers are reduced in Iraq the percentage not being deployed will increase but the size of the army and the work of the army will continue with all these non-soldiers getting paid as soldiers but...

William is a serving officer in the army - you do need to accept that fact and accept the fact that having that position makes him a soldier. Any other definition just defies logic and insults all those men and women who are in your country's army but who haven't seen service in a war zone and may never do so.
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