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  #661  
Old 08-25-2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
What I'm finding most disturbing about this discussion are the self-righteous pontifications, the sanctimonious condemnations, the complete loss of perspective, the reduction of human foibles to black and white, the presentation of personal opinion as incontrovertible fact ("that's all that's to it and nothing more"), the quick and easy dismissiveness as individuals are assessed, found wanting, and discarded ("he IS a lost boy"), all the while delivered in the tone and stance of being oh-so-morally-superior.

From my observation, what makes it even more ugly and unsettling is the apparent glee some members display in their harsh but happy rush to judge and condemn. Added to that is the underlying cold nastiness that others inadvertently reveal about themselves. Ugh. This thread, now at 33 pages in 6 days, continues to expand. The way I sense it, so is the ickiness factor.
Thank You! Very well said.
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  #662  
Old 08-25-2012, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
Not quite. I'm not concerned whether members consider Harry a hero or a villain. What I do find unedifying is self-righteousness and nastiness. These are often apparent in tone rather than content and it is tone which gives a debate, a discussion, a thread or an entire forum it's atmosphere or flavour. If gleeful maliciousness or sanctimonious finger waving edge out good nature and good humour, the atmosphere can deteriorate and become very uncomfortable. That adversely affects the member experience and members' overall enjoyment of the Forums.

It was my observation tonight, together with another colleague, that some of these concerns were being realised. As a result I made my - up till then - one and only post in this thread.
Warren, you are a prince among men (pun intended!). This needed saying so badly, and you've said it beautifully.

What people don't seem to want to understand is that human beings aren't robots. Just because Harry's 27 and from a rich family doesn't mean he should be expected to never make a mistake. Unless I'm missing something, unscrupulous girls (or men) don't swan around with a sign on their foreheads saying 'Beware! I'm trouble!'. We all make judgements on the people we meet, we sometimes get it right, we sometimes get it wrong.

Harry has to be able to meet new people, particularly new women. Otherwise, life would be pretty bloody dull simply being round the same small group of people all the time. He made a mistake in this instance about at least one of these women, but being almost 28, or 58 for that matter, doesn't automatically make a person a brilliant judge of character.

As a 27 year old, I make stupid mistakes all the time. Last year, despite having been driving for almost a decade, I made a stupid mistake and crashed into the back of the car in front of mine. I was going too fast and was too close to the car in front, which I know is stupid, but I still did it. I've also made stupid decisions about men more than once in my time. Why? Because I'm human! Apparently, though, many on this forum would have me hung up for not always doing the right thing because I'm 27 and should apparently be able to make the right decisions all the time!

Harry has always been very popular for being rambunctious, energetic and fun. He's always enjoyed a drink and a night on the tiles, like most people do. He takes it too far occasionally, like most people do. The fact that he made a silly mistake while in the buff doesn't change the fact that he's serving his country and putting his life on the line in doing so, and he completes his royal duties in an effective way. Harry's popularity will not be affected in the slightest by this.
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  #663  
Old 08-25-2012, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
But I am 100% sure that he was not being serious when he said he would beat up the dealer if he lost...
You say this with that level of certainty because .... you were there? Have personal experience of what Harry is like as a drunk?

It's unlikely the dealer was 'scared' in any case. The level of security is such in those casinos that such a threat would have had casino security on top of the situation within seconds. The dealer was not in danger - and if Harry were competent he would know such a 'threat' could not be enforced and so saying such might be a 'joke'. Yes. He was, however, drunk - and neither you nor I can know exactly how acute his sense of the ironic was at that moment.

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he is has never shown the slightest tendency toward being aggressive or violent!
And you know this because......how? There have been public instances of Harry being aggressive while drunk as has been pointed out already above.

If Harry was only drunk is a question. If he had a little 'something more' in his cocktail, all bets are off regarding his inhibitions. One thing is clear - he was pretty full of himself and was feeling pretty invincible and unaccountable. I think the friendliness of the Americans charmed him into feeling that he was 'among friends'. We are a friendly sort that way.
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  #664  
Old 08-25-2012, 02:40 PM
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If he has a new girlfriend the best thing she can do is dump him as quickly as possible.

He may have a lot of things going for him but it seems inside his head, just a lot of sawdust. A scarecrow has more sense.
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  #665  
Old 08-25-2012, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by angieuk View Post
If he has a new girlfriend the best thing she can do is dump him as quickly as possible.

He may have a lot of things going for him but it seems inside his head, just a lot of sawdust. A scarecrow has more sense.

He DOES have a lot of things going for him, though. There was a very nice video of him posted in the current events thread in conjunction with the Paralympics. Whatever his faults may be I think Harry is a genuinely caring person with a lot of empathy.

I think I fall somewhere in the middle of the opinions regarding the Vegas episode. I think it's much more serious than his most vigorous defenders do but much less serious than what his harshest critics are saying. It's not a great situation, but it's not insurmountable, either, as long as it doesn't become a pattern.

Going forward, I hope we see much more of well groomed Harry speaking up for a good cause, and much less of his drunk, pasty butt!
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  #666  
Old 08-25-2012, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
Not quite. I'm not concerned whether members consider Harry a hero or a villain. What I do find unedifying is self-righteousness and nastiness. These are often apparent in tone rather than content and it is tone which gives a debate, a discussion, a thread or an entire forum it's atmosphere or flavour. If gleeful maliciousness or sanctimonious finger waving edge out good nature and good humour, the atmosphere can deteriorate and become very uncomfortable. That adversely affects the member experience and members' overall enjoyment of the Forums.
I think it has everything to do with what one brings to the table as a propensity - in how one interprets opinions one is not comfortable with - than any objective 'tone'. Tone is a very subjective judgement. I have certainly experienced as an observer and as a recipient objective content getting ott and very personal responses. Interpreting the tone of a text starts a slippery slope imo. One has to only experience the 'flame-wars' that can occur on other chat sites solely because someone doesn't like someone's 'tone' to realize how righteous, indeed, some people can get over 'tone'. (The most effective trolling on the IMDb message boards, in fact, use this objection to a poster's 'tone' to keep the pot stirred).

It should be kept in mind that the current population - unlike 30 to 40 years ago - has a high personal acquaintance with addictions, recovery (12-Step Programs) and various and sundry psychological issues - either personally or with family or friends. There is a high level of savvy regarding psychological terms - unlike 50 years ago, when it could be reasonably said, psychological stuff was best 'left to the professionals'. No longer - the terms are the lingua franca of our lives because often rooted in everyday experience where we try to understand the social world we live in. It remains impolite to call each other by these terms, of course - but who among us has not said to someone, "Do you think I'm/you're being paranoid?" or something similar and then had a weighing in.

For sure I can vouch for how uncomfortable a chat site can get when it's decided that it's open season on a poster or posters because the ideas they float are deemed unpopular, don't quite fit with the prevailing narrative. If 'tone' becomes an issue - such a subjective thing - its a near no-win situation. I recall the literal sanctity that surrounded JFK, the US president killed in 1963. Had anyone dared breath the truth about his sexual shenanigans in the 1960's into 1970's - and some did - they would be hooted off the stage, relegated into social exile, debunked as a crank and 'malicious' person. This is not far from that atmosphere back then.

I am also well aware that some of this is a male-female thing. Separate issue but I think it comes out in discussions around sexual matters. A thread on just that might be interesting to have - because it's certainly coming up here. I for one have not found this thread to be unpleasant (except for one or two occasions when posters felt they could smear another poster by false inference). There is definitely a difference of opinion - but stating the view that Harry is a 'little boy lost' is an opinion not a tone imo. Mentioning it in the context you have is a form of leveling a penalty and dampening down posters saying their truth.
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  #667  
Old 08-25-2012, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by princess carmen View Post
I think Harry showed bad judgment you don't get naked in front of strangers, especially if your in his position. I don't think he is an alcoholic that is not possible with the flying he does.
Well said . . .
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  #668  
Old 08-25-2012, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
He DOES have a lot of things going for him, though. There was a very nice video of him posted in the current events thread in conjunction with the Paralympics. Whatever his faults may be I think Harry is a genuinely caring person with a lot of empathy.
I agree. Having problems does not make one a whit less interesting or worthy of love. Of the two brothers it is Harry I think that is the more pleasant and charismatic on a personal level - most alcoholics are, I have found. (some are not, of course). However, he also has an alcohol problem. Just google Prince Harry and you will see that he once snorted vodka up his nose - its serious, folks, when someone thinks that to have a good time they must be drunk.

As someone has mentioned to me - often people believe alcoholism is about 'needing' to drink every day. It isn't. Binge drinking may be something one tries out a few times. If it goes beyond that, especially to black-out - a person needs to re-evaulate their lives and where they are heading. The young people on this board who think that Harry doing this makes it 'okay' and 'cool' - and do not yet recognize its danger to him and themselves when they do it - are being done a disservice by those who are saying it is harmless and an over reaction.
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  #669  
Old 08-25-2012, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyger View Post
One thing is clear - he was pretty full of himself and was feeling pretty invincible and unaccountable. I think the friendliness of the Americans charmed him into feeling that he was 'among friends'. We are a friendly sort that way.
Just wondering ...
After his US-military training he went to Las Vegas for a few days. Maybe he stayed in the same place back then. Did maybe the same things. Nothing happened afterwards, so maybe he was simply convinced everything would be fine this time, too. Lots of speculation. I know. Just an idea ...
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  #670  
Old 08-25-2012, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyger View Post
I agree. Having problems does not make one a whit less interesting or worthy of love. Of the two brothers it is Harry I think that is the more pleasant and charismatic on a personal level - most alcoholics are, I have found. (some are not, of course). However, he also has an alcohol problem. Just google Prince Harry and you will see that he once snorted vodka up his nose - its serious, folks, when someone thinks that to have a good time they must be drunk.

As someone has mentioned to me - often people believe alcoholism is about 'needing' to drink every day. It isn't. Binge drinking may be something one tries out a few times. If it goes beyond that, especially to black-out - a person needs to re-evaulate their lives and where they are heading. The young people on this board who think that Harry doing this makes it 'okay' and 'cool' - and do not yet recognize its danger to him and themselves when they do it - are being done a disservice by those who are saying it is harmless and an over reaction.
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Alcohol abuse generally refers to people who do not display the characteristics of alcoholism but still have a problem with it - these people are not as dependent on alcohol as an alcoholic is; they have not yet completely lost their control over its consumption.

Consuming moderate quantities of alcohol will not usually cause any physical or psychological harm. Unfortunately, for some people social drinking eventually leads to heavier drinking, which can cause devastating health and psychological problems. According to the National Health Service (NHS), UK, approximately 1 in every 13 people in the UK is an alcoholic - a sizable proportion of the UK population drinks excessively
What Is An Alcoholic? What Is Alcoholism?
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  #671  
Old 08-25-2012, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by angieuk View Post
If he has a new girlfriend the best thing she can do is dump him as quickly as possible.

He may have a lot of things going for him but it seems inside his head, just a lot of sawdust. A scarecrow has more sense.
Seriously? The fact that he misjudged a couple of girls while on a lads holiday means that he's more stupid than a scarecrow? If that's the criteria then most men are utter dunces.

If occasionally getting drunk with his mates and making a fool of himself while doing so were a reason to dump a guy then British women would have to start emigrating to find partners.

Harry is a handsome, buff, fun-loving guy who appears to be a very good friend (as proved by the incident with his mate who was recently mugged). He's a pilot in a seriously demanding job, he's served his country in war and also dedicates time to good causes. Oh, and he's a multimillionaire. Even with the occasional lads weekend with his mates, that's still an incredibly attractive package. If anything, it's the fact that he's apparently not even entitled to privacy while in a private hotel room on a private holiday that should make a woman think twice about becoming involved with him. That's pretty sad for Harry.
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  #672  
Old 08-25-2012, 06:21 PM
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I can only speak for myself, Warren; and I certainly have no "glee" when thinking or speaking about the situation in which Harry has found himself. As for sanctimony, people have different values which they hold dear. For me, drinking too much and being nude at parties isn't "okay." That is my personal moral conviction. I do sometimes think that Harry could end up in serious, serious trouble someday because he appears to me to be reckless and someone who can't stop drinking once he starts. There are people who are "binge" alcoholics. They can be sober for periods but can't control their drinking when they get the chance to indulge. I wish the best for him in terms of having a stable life, one without the high-level partying that could damage him at some point. People die from overdrinking and high-jinks. It happens.


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If gleeful maliciousness or sanctimonious finger waving edge out good nature and good humour, the atmosphere can deteriorate and become very uncomfortable. That adversely affects the member experience and members' overall enjoyment of the Forums.
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  #673  
Old 08-25-2012, 06:38 PM
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Prince Harry dumped by Cressida Bonas over naked hotel antics - Mirror Online

For Harry's sake I hope there isn't any more pics or videos yet to be seen out there.
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  #674  
Old 08-25-2012, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Naggi View Post
OMG aren't you guys getting tired discussing Harry's night of fun. Obviously he had fun.
Yes, I am. It's been a week now and it's getting kind of boring isn't it?
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  #675  
Old 08-25-2012, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyger View Post
I agree. Having problems does not make one a whit less interesting or worthy of love. Of the two brothers it is Harry I think that is the more pleasant and charismatic on a personal level - most alcoholics are, I have found. (some are not, of course). However, he also has an alcohol problem. Just google Prince Harry and you will see that he once snorted vodka up his nose - its serious, folks, when someone thinks that to have a good time they must be drunk.

As someone has mentioned to me - often people believe alcoholism is about 'needing' to drink every day. It isn't. Binge drinking may be something one tries out a few times. If it goes beyond that, especially to black-out - a person needs to re-evaulate their lives and where they are heading. The young people on this board who think that Harry doing this makes it 'okay' and 'cool' - and do not yet recognize its danger to him and themselves when they do it - are being done a disservice by those who are saying it is harmless and an over reaction.
You know Tyger I generally enjoy your posts...many of them are quite insightful.

But for you to make such a firm diagnosis of a serious disease like ALCOHOLISM in the same breath that you admonish me for saying I don't think he is naturally aggressive/violent is just....completely absurd

Do you have access to his medical records, or have personal knowlege of his attendance in therapy to treat such a problem?

He is in the military flying helicopters. There must be medical evaluations that he has to undergo on a regular basis. If there was a serious disease such as alcoholism, I am not sure he would be allowed to continue in his job.
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  #676  
Old 08-25-2012, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by angieuk View Post
If he has a new girlfriend the best thing she can do is dump him as quickly as possible.

He may have a lot of things going for him but it seems inside his head, just a lot of sawdust. A scarecrow has more sense.
Are you a doctor?
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  #677  
Old 08-25-2012, 07:29 PM
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Maybe it's been said before - I haven't been through all 34 pages of this thread - but IMO the occasional binge drinker is not necessarily an alcoholic! Harry would have been booted out of the Armed Forces by now had he been a drunkard! He's a young royal, and several of them - including his continental counterparts! - have a habit of holding court and going over the top when partying. They have a number of privileges and freebees, they have people attending to their every whim and there are plenty of folks eager to be part of the fun and some of them will also take advantage of it. It goes with the territory I'm afraid! Most of these royals have not had hands- on parents like the rest of us and most of them have been brought up and supervised by nannies and courtiers.

IMO being royal and being brought up in a royal environment must do something to one's self understanding and sense of reality. These people are not like the rest of us and IMHO we cannot apply our bourgeois standards when judging their behaviour, because they don't operate by them!
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  #678  
Old 08-25-2012, 07:34 PM
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Maybe it's been said before - I haven't been trough all 34 pages of this thread - but IMO the occational binge drinker is not necessarily an alcoholic! Harry would have been booted out of the Armed Forces by now had he been a drunkard! He's a young royal, and several of them - and this includes his continental counterparts! - have a habit of holding court and going over the top when they're partying. They have a number of privileges and freebees, they have people attending to their every whim and there are plenty of folks eager to be part of the fun and some of them will also take advantage of it. It goes with the territory I'm afraid! Most of these royals have not had hands- on parents like the rest of us and most of them have been brought up and supervised by nannies and courtiers.

IMO being royal and being brought up in a royal environment must do something to one's self understanding and sense of reality. These people are not like the rest of us and IMHO we cannot apply our bourgeois standards when judging their behaviour , because they don't operate by them!
viv
Well said Viv,nice to see the voice of reason has not been totally swallowed up in this sanctimonious sea.
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  #679  
Old 08-25-2012, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
You know Tyger I generally enjoy your posts...many of them are quite insightful.
Thank you.

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But for you to make such a firm diagnosis of a serious disease like ALCOHOLISM in the same breath that you admonish me for saying I don't think he is naturally aggressive/violent is just....completely absurd.
I try.

You said 100% certain - and I was just pointing that out - there's no way of knowing whether a drunk Harry threatening to beat someone up was being 'jokey'. We can see how he might - but we can also see how he might not - therefore, not 100%.

The evidence thus far is that he has a serious issue with drinking - its been going on for years - so much so that his father sent him to rehab (we are told). He's snorted vodka. (Dear gawd). He binges and drinks to oblivion - these are all 'signs' - and if a whole nation thinks this is just normal - well, I can still say in the face of it, it ain't. At the rate he's going he's going to lose his looks, his health and a lot more that he currently values.

Quote:
He is in the military flying helicopters. There must be medical evaluations that he has to undergo on a regular basis. If there was a serious disease such as alcoholism, I am not sure he would be allowed to continue in his job.
From what I understand of these things one only has to be 'clean' a certain number of hours before the tests. From everything I am hearing elsewhere drinking and fighter pilots go together hand-in-hand.

Fact is, Harry has brought shame on the military (if not the BRF). Any other common ordinary bloke would be demoted and/or kicked out. Harry, not being ordinary, will likely just get a wrist slap and actually get deployed to Afghanistan. (I have my own views on using a seriously hellish war zone as a photo-op for a royal's rehabilitation - Afghanistan is seriously not safe - for anyone - and personally, I think it's 'not cool' sending him as its disrespectful to those who are there. Afghanistan is not a lark).

BTW I stand on record as deploring the breach of his privacy. I used the word 'despicable' to describe it before the newspapers did. (Not taking any credit there, just saying). However, as I've thought about it I've begun to wonder. I have begun to suspect that something was going on that made breaching the privacy an 'easier' decision than if all was 'normal'. As it happens, we're going to find out. These women have a story to tell - and dollars to donuts its not flattering.

You know it's also possible that Harry does not have one shred of memory about anything that went on. (That would be a good excuse for him to use, in fact).
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  #680  
Old 08-25-2012, 07:41 PM
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I think a lot of people forget something very important : he has killed nobody !
I don't approve of exhibisionism and drunkeness BUT these things are not crimes !!!
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