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  #721  
Old 08-26-2012, 02:00 PM
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I think many soldiers behave like this but that is no excuse for him

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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Fact???!?!??

how do you know how Prince Harry behaves when he's in service? Or for that matter, do you know how other soldiers behave when they are not on duty?
He'll surely have to answer his superiors about this, but if he had been a liabilty to the armed forces, he would have been out of them a long time ago..

the things that are being dragged into this thread are just horrible.....
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  #722  
Old 08-26-2012, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by tea-n-tiaras View Post
Yes, "Lie low and stay out of site." is pretty lame if that is all that is said and done. It shows only a protection of self interest and a manipulation of the public.
As for the body guards, I think Prince Harry knew full well those pictures were being taken and that's why the bodyguards did nothing!
IIRC, as a royal, Harry travels with specially trained police officers as his protection. They're not comparable to the private bodyguards/babysitters celebrities often hire but rather more comparable to the American Secret Service. Harry's bodyguards don't work for him - he's not their boss - and their job is to keep him alive, not make his life more comfortable or save him from his own stupidity.
Also, Harry needs to feel comfortable with these people if they're going to be able to effectively protect him. If the officers were continuously confiscating cameras and making people put their clothes on and shutting down parties then any bets as to how long it would be before someone like Harry got sick of them and either started trying to give them the slip or refused to have them around at all? Not long at all, I'd say.
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  #723  
Old 08-26-2012, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
I am not one of the Americans who is outraged...I think it's all ridiculously overblown... but you don't seriously believe it's only us do you??
I don't see the negative reaction to this as overblown - it's just a pov, no more or less. Rather, I see the reaction to those who view this in a negative way and do not see this as 'a bit of the lads having fun' as overblown. That's where the ott extreme seems to be.

I am not going to be too detailed, but Harry making a choice for a career in the army means he has accepted a level of responsibility willingly, over and above his royal birth. His responsibility is for the safety of his comrades in arms in a war zone. We are fighting a complex enemy that has pretty fundamental codes of conduct amongst themselves. The foreign soldiers on their soil already are from a debauched culture in their eyes - which puts our soldiers at always greater risk. Allowing a royal to 'play soldier' so he can be a 'hero' back home after this bit of privileged in-your-face 'lads will be lads' is to put other soldiers at greater risk. Not acceptable.

Please note - for those who have a difficulty teasing out the distinctions: I do not find the escapade my cup-of-tea but I do not judge it. I am not in a position to be holier-than-thou or sanctimonious - and I do not believe anyone here has been. Describing posters that way is just a cheap shot, a way to dismiss significant points without actually having to do the intellectual heavy-lifting to mount a sound rebuttal. Nor do I think anyone is being 'malicious' when they state what they are thinking. I am not shocked nor am I outraged (I think few are that). I can still like Harry and yet totally see that he has some serious issues - and some attitudes (evident in this episode) that are not nice. I have known many 'users' in my life and been charmed by them, and still are charmed by them - that does not make them any less 'users', worthy of some unpleasant adjectives, often said to their face.
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  #724  
Old 08-26-2012, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susan alicia View Post
I think many soldiers behave like this but that is no excuse for him
you are absolutely right about that ("if all soldiers would jump of a cliff, that doesn't mean harry has to jump" ;o) )
but the fact that he did something that he shouldn't have, has been covered in this thread extensively (from all angles, from all psychological viewpoints) so I didn't think it was necessary to add that again...(and again, and again)
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  #725  
Old 08-26-2012, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Fact???!?!??
Yes - it's a turn of phrase - but since you're being particular, ask any soldier who has been in a war zone. Ask around. Do a straw poll.

Again, for those unable to tease out the distinctions: this is not about the actual carousing. He can do what he likes - and soldiers for sure do. This has nothing to do with moral judgements or personal preferences. This has everything to do with having made choices that someone of his age and experience with celebrity should have forestalled before the first round of drinks got going in a public place like Las Vegas. He should have gone back to Necker - but we can suppose why he didn't. This has everything to do with the putting himself into a situation that could shame the military, his family and any woman he might be committed to. What this says about him is not attractive - but he clearly think he can do whatever he likes without consequence. The best thing that could happen to Harry is that he be reprimanded in such a way that sticks with him - for his own sake.

Quote:
How do you know how Prince Harry behaves when he's in service?
I don't believe that is a point that has been raised - at least by me - but I could see it being an issue if Harry is in any way a 'hot dog' when 'on duty'.

You are misunderstanding why this incident - that is now public - makes his presence an added complexity for anyone serving beside him in a war zone. The enemy we are fighting may be fundamentalist but that does not mean they are dumb - far from it. They do have internet access - and they do judge. I am not going to go further - you can connect the dots - or ask someone who has been in [this particular] war zone. Its the notoriety of this event - that he could have avoided - that makes him the liability - on top of his royal status. He should know that, likely does know that, and so should have done everything to avoid it possibly happening (being made public, not the carousing). He owes that to his mates. (Nothing to do with carousing per se).

Quote:
He'll surely have to answer his superiors about this, but if he had been a liabilty to the armed forces, he would have been out of them a long time ago..
He is Royal - and he is being given special considerations to enable him to claim extraordinary service to his country. This is what the BRF does. That's a pov. Many military seriously doubt he is ever allowed to be in harm's way - that he ever really does the grunt work. If you believe that having Harry deploy in a war zone does not cost more money - does not require more logistical protections be put in place - then you live in a different rational world than I do.

Quote:
the things that are being dragged into this thread are just horrible.....
You mean different pov's? What is 'horrible' about different points of view? Are you more experienced with chat sites that permit only one narrative to hold sway perhaps? I for one value the varying opinions. I learn a lot - and even change what I think as I read and consider what others have written. Wouldn't happen were not there a free discussion happening here.
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  #726  
Old 08-26-2012, 03:32 PM
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Horrible = the certainty with which opinions are brought as fact, what I specifically was refering to were statements like he *is* an alcoholic, this is all *because* he misses parental guidance, etc.

over and over and over again, and when somebody tries to argue against such a "fixed" statement, then the "free speech" thing is thrown in his face...
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  #727  
Old 08-26-2012, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Reports that billionaire hotel developer Steve Wynn picked up the tab for Prince Harry's stay last week lend credence to scuttlebutt that he's unhappy with his security team. And that may be putting it mildly.


According to a source, the Prince Harry scandal could get much worse.


"Something pretty gigantic" is involved, the source said, something more serious than "strip billiards" at one of Wynn's properties.
More: Las Vegas Review Journal
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  #728  
Old 08-26-2012, 04:18 PM
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According to an opinion poll carried out in the past few days, the Brits are relaxed about this and Harry's approval rating is 75%. Presidential candidates would walk over broken glass for a rating like that! actually any politican would

I got shouted down before when I said this, but others have come in and agreed - the US posters in the main see this as a far more serious issue than those in England.

Harry will go back to his Army post (army, not RAF as assumed by some), get an enormous rollocking and then get on with his job.

The job is to serve in the army and go to Afghanistan - simple. He doesn't need to be told he's got this wrong - he knows cos people he respects have told him.

There should be a clear line drawn between our own personal moral code/values and those we expect of a member of the royal family. Imposing our own on another individual is not a good thing, IMO.

I don't expect the BRF to be the leaders of moral standing in my country and the majority of Brits feel the same. I think that generally we believe that personal values, developed through religious beliefs and/or personal understanding /experience is the way to go.

He's had a really drunk weekend, made a complete pr*t of himself and I'm hopeful that this is the end of it.
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  #729  
Old 08-26-2012, 04:44 PM
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apologies, I skim through the postings sometimes and I do think this fun in vegas has been discussed from every angle possible, with repeats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
you are absolutely right about that ("if all soldiers would jump of a cliff, that doesn't mean harry has to jump" ;o) )
but the fact that he did something that he shouldn't have, has been covered in this thread extensively (from all angles, from all psychological viewpoints) so I didn't think it was necessary to add that again...(and again, and again)
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  #730  
Old 08-26-2012, 04:49 PM
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By the looks of it there is still another shoe to drop.

These cliff hangers are cruel re "Something pretty gigantic" .....now, for the hints of what could yet come, I do feel for all concerned.
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  #731  
Old 08-26-2012, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdngirl View Post
Oh Iluvbertie, if it any consolation to you, I really don't think Harry would take his utter lack of judgement in his private life and transfer it onto his army life. I think when you are in a war zone, you are concerned for your fellow man, and act accordingly.

Let's face it, this is probably not the first time Harry has done something like this away from the Army, and he has shown himself to be an exemplary officer.

Which is why there are reports that his senior officers are concerned about his lack of judgement and whether or not he is in fact ready to go to war - because they expect better judgement 24/7 from their officers -as they should.

From:
Prince Harry dumped by Cressida Bonas over naked hotel antics - Mirror Online
Harry will be summoned to see the Commanding Officer of the Household Cavalry Regiment, his parent unit, amid concerns that his has brought shame on the regiment.
The source said: “It is not what he did that will concern the Commanding Officer it is the decision making process he could which allowed him to compromise himself. It raises concerns about his mental readiness to deploy on high intensity operations.
“Officers have a duty to make sure that any Apache pilot is ready for operations. That means their mental ability to make the decision is finely tuned.
“If pilots or crew are not focused or that their decision making is not tip top they will not be deployed. They will be seriously questioning whether he is a mature enough decision maker to make snap life or death judgements in the war zone. They could stop him going to Afghanistan, not to make a point but because they don’t think he is ready for it.”

So there are now questions about his fitness for operational duties.
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  #732  
Old 08-26-2012, 05:34 PM
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]

The Mirror is not a reliable source of information.

There is absolutely NO WAY that the Army would discuss the specifics of an individual officer with the press.

The paper may have spoken with a former member of the military about this which is a coincidence because so have I - I'm married to one,

there is no specific charge to answer as we are talking "off duty activities" but the Commanding Officer will have a conversation about bringing the army and regiment into disrepute (under Section 252 Army Act 1963). It will accepted by the officer and the CO that the events took place and the "charge" is confirmed. 2 or 3 weeks pay (to charity) and additional duties are the normal punishment.

I know this not because I've spoken to Harry's CO but because this is standard practice and Harry will be treated the same way as any other officer.

REPEAT - the same as any other officer.
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  #733  
Old 08-26-2012, 05:41 PM
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I think the best way to bring Harry to never ever doing a hotel adventure again would be to bring him to read these now 37 pages of diagnosis of himself. I am pretty much certain that he would even swear of never entering a hotel room again....:-)
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  #734  
Old 08-26-2012, 05:47 PM
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Harry should state that he will never take a drink of alcohol again, because he sees what it does to him, especially his judgement. He is "allergic", better word "sensitive" to alcohol and it makes him behave this way, whatever you call "this way". If he doesn't do anything else for his country, the monarchy, and himself, it would be a contribution for him to swear off alcohol. He doesn't need it to lead an interesting life. He already has an interesting life, and it could be very much more interesting if he got straight on this and reexamined his values.
I can barely understand the comments on how Harry might have done this to make sure the girls at home knew he was not ready for marriage. If marriage is such a desperate situation for Harry--to be feared--so badly, maybe he should start thinking about finding a worthy life partner, and being alcohol free would help him find such a partner.
He probably should marry fairly soon, and if the only way to do it is to resign the army and work "at home" for his family, that would be a positive step. But who is helping Harry think straight? He sure needs a mentor. A guide. Maybe even a clergyman.
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  #735  
Old 08-26-2012, 06:00 PM
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Agreed. I believe, however, that this will be very, very hard to do given his circle of friends. Alcohol is almost everywhere a person socializes; and unless a person has a core group of non-drinking friends (say, an AA group) remaining sober is almost impossible. However, The Duke of York has managed to remain a teetotaler since the early '80s; it is possible.

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Originally Posted by Mariel1 View Post
Harry should state that he will never take a drink of alcohol again, because he sees what it does to him, especially his judgement. He is "allergic", better word "sensitive" to alcohol and it makes him behave this way, whatever you call "this way". If he doesn't do anything else for his country, the monarchy, and himself, it would be a contribution for him to swear off alcohol. He doesn't need it to lead an interesting life.
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  #736  
Old 08-26-2012, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyoftheLake View Post
By the looks of it there is still another shoe to drop.

These cliff hangers are cruel re "Something pretty gigantic" .....now, for the hints of what could yet come, I do feel for all concerned.
The 'teaser' yes. I have begun to suspect that something happened that night that makes leaking all this 'easy' for the women. I wonder if in his attitude he pissed someone off.

He has partied in Britain, after all, where there is more respect and honoring (maybe is the word) of a royal person. No such respect and honoring is here in the US. He was partying among people for whom he was just one among many celebrity-types among a crowd. He perhaps conveys a sense of entitlement that just begs to be taken down a peg or two. Never know - might.

I doubt what gets revealed will shake anyone's 'faith' in him that are already enamored of him. It will, after all, be his business (if it is what I think it is). What remains the problem is his inability to gauge the peril to his privacy. But then, I think that was the point of not going back to Necker - he wanted the public venue - he was seeking it out. For his own reasons.

I can speak for my milieu - normally I just don't bother talking about my interest in royalty. This, however, has made the news on the major networks - and I have to say the view here seems to be laughter - not outrage. ("Well that didn't stay in Las Vegas.") When it gets mentioned there is disbelief - not in his actions but in that he allowed himself to be compromised publicly. Its assumed almost at once that he wanted to exhibit himself - no one can make out why it would happen otherwise. The most common and obvious question posed is: 'What was he on?'

The poll someone mentions is interesting. It reminds us ever more forcefully that we as a general society are not free of a crippling double standard. Someone here posted suggesting that these women will be migrating from Las Vegas to Tampa, Florida for the Republican National Convention. This is indicative of how the women at these parties get viewed. Harry is 'the lad' - the women are 'chicks' and 'ungrateful' and akin to 'loose' in a way I think you know what I mean.

The British propensity to rail against the infractions of Sarah, Duchess of York, or talk of royal women behaving in an un-royal way now rings very hollow. I doubt they would tolerate anything even close to this happening with Beatrice, say. One can only imagine the conversations that would take place if it were Beatrice caught naked and hugging strange men in suggestive poses.

I also think the wish of many posters for this not to be discussed at such length and depth is precisely because it is an embarrassment. They want it to go away - and I don't blame them. However, so it is, its a fascinating event. Sadly, Harry misjudged - he thought the Americans were like the British who will remain discreet regarding royal propensities. Nope.
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  #737  
Old 08-26-2012, 07:14 PM
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one more article

Prince Harry: Royal experts give their verdicts - brave as a lion, but always the playboy prince - Telegraph
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  #738  
Old 08-26-2012, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Daria_S View Post
Oh, I believe Wills is going to live off of this for a good while, and use it as 'payback' of sorts for any pranks that Harry may have pulled on him that he didn't care for (and maybe for the speech that Harry gave at his wedding last April ). Holy smokes...

On a more serious note, I really won't want to be Harry right now. I'm sure he'll be chewed up and spat out not only by the press, but his Papa and Granny (and maybe even William, all joking aside). I sincerely hope he can build his image back up, because he has so much potential and has done a great deal of good.
I really don't think Harry needs to build his image back up - all of this has only made him more popular, a legend even. Harry has always had this mischevious streak in him and we all love him for it.
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  #739  
Old 08-26-2012, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post

There should be a clear line drawn between our own personal moral code/values and those we expect of a member of the royal family. Imposing our own on another individual is not a good thing, IMO.

I don't expect the BRF to be the leaders of moral standing in my country and the majority of Brits feel the same. I think that generally we believe that personal values, developed through religious beliefs and/or personal understanding /experience is the way to go.

He's had a really drunk weekend, made a complete ***** of himself and I'm hopeful that this is the end of it.
I believe that as long as the Royal Family receives tax dollars that there most certainly should be an expectation of a standard of behavior from them. They are basically ambassadors for Great Britain. Prince Harry is 3rd in line for the title Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church of England. (Which are by the way are titles that I believe should be taken away by virtue of the fact that this family's morals make it hypocritical for them to keep those titles.)

Everyone "imposes" their moral values on people. We expect a certain level of behavior from those in privileged positions whose lifestyles are supported or protected by tax payer dollars just like we expect a certain behavior from those in our lives. Everyone makes judgements about others behavior based on their own system of values. If Prince Harry had gotten drunk and gone out driving and run someone down there would be plenty of people "imposing" their own "personal moral code/values on others." You and others just don't expect Prince Harry to exercise self control or wisdom in the area of sex and/or drinking or in making wise choices that would reflect well on his country or his family. Maybe that is at the heart of his problems. Nobody ever taught him morally right behavior or expected him to exercise self-control or held him accountable for his behavior.

I see his behavior as self-destructive. He does not even have the sense to protect himself or his family.

As to this being the "end of it," I would doubt it will be the end of it. It is his pattern. It is the way he has lived his life and will continue to live it this way unless something drastically changes. I will hold out hope for a drastic personal internal change for his sake.
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Old 08-26-2012, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by tea-n-tiaras View Post
. If Prince Harry had gotten drunk and gone out driving and run someone down there would be plenty of people "imposing" their own "personal moral code/values on others." .
Well that would have been illegal and rightfully criticised. Nothing that Harry did in LV was illegal or terribly unusual. It was also done in the privacy of his own hotel suite. It was the violation of his privacy that should be the story.


"An American has no sense of privacy. He does not know what it means.There is no such thing in the country". George Bernard Shaw
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