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  #301  
Old 10-13-2016, 06:29 PM
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This is one of the most well thought out posts I've read in a long time and totally agree with the insights that you've given.

William and Harry, of course, now have totally different lifestyles than each other. One is married with a wife and very young children and serving the people with Air Ambulance work while the other is single, traveling the world finding out his passions and developing those passions and working to bring those passions to the forefront. Yet, together, William, Harry and Kate are meshing together very well to form what I call the "three musketeers" to work together under the umbrella of their foundation.

No child who is independent thinking follows exactly in the parent's footsteps and do exactly like their parents did and this rings true with William and Harry. I think their father is quite proud of them and their mother is also (if one believes that a person can be spiritually with their loved ones after death).

Thanks for a great post and welcome to TRF Loonytick!
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  #302  
Old 10-13-2016, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by loonytick View Post
I think the biggest indicator of William and Harry's relationship has to be the way they've chosen to work together in official capacity. Yes, they each do a lot of things independently of the other. But they created an office at Kensington Palace to share, they've found ways to coordinate their charitable focuses (and Kate's) into an overarching theme of mental health, and they've worked together on several occasions to organize large events such as the Concert for Diana.

Prince Charles was pretty vocal (well, as vocal as royals get in these situations) about wanting them to stay under the umbrella of Clarence House and he's seemed to allow Clarence House staffers a degree of leeway to complain to the press about the differences of philosophy and strategy that exist between his office and theirs. It seems like a strong statement on their part to step together out of that situation and take charge of their own royal careers together. Even just moving to Kensington at all, when there seemed to be moves to phase out the royal residences there and try to keep more royal apartments on the St. James complex (which is where Clarence House is, right?), seems to have been something of a coordinated power move on their part. They're standing united in their decision create their own charitable work rather than simply take on management of the Prince's Trust, too. All in all, while their father certainly has one model in mind for modernizing the royal family once he becomes king, William has his own ideas percolating for how things should be once he's on the throne, and Harry's working together with him to lay a foundation.

And more generally, it seems to me that there's a pretty sharp contrast between William and Harry's comfort with each other and the way the next generation older operates. Charles and his siblings have acted quite independently of each other from the start of their lives as working royals. It's very rare to see any combination of Charles, Anne, Andrew or Edward show up at the same event beyond the really big ones where everyone is expected to attend to the Queen; when they are together they all seem much more relaxed with the Queen than with each other. That's not to suggest bad relationships or outright dislike, just that they aren't around each other enough to be close. They all circle their mother in orbits that rarely intersect. And honestly, that's not that uncommon in families, royal or not. In contrast, William and Harry do a number of joint appearances every year and it's not uncommon to see them playing polo together or choosing to attend the same sporting event. They gravitate towards each other when they're in the same place, they tease each other, and it's not uncommon for them to settle into a more relaxed posture than the "royal on duty" pose when they turn to speak to each other. They may not be the very best friends, they may sometimes push each other's buttons, but they certainly have a comfort with each other that goes far beyond what their father has with his sister and brothers.
INteresting post and I agree with most of it. THe part I have an issue with is comparing William and Harrys relationship, with that of Charles and his siblings. DIfferent times, different lives.

The Queen, in many respects, had 2 families - consider the age differences. So difficult for each pairing to be close.

Charles spent most of his life separated from Anne. Boarding schools, university and then naval career which meant he spent the majority of time away from home. Anne also spent time in boarding school, but no university. Instead, royal duties, 3day eventing and marriage. Not close thru circumstances.

Similar differences between Andrew (away a lot due to naval service) and Edward.

The requirements expected of these children were fixed firmly in pre-war Britain mindset which was firmly Edwardian.

The main difference though is that William and Harry share experiences, the worst of which is the death of their mother. Those shared experiences still bind them.

The other main influence is the understanding that their father, and HMQ have given these two boys to establish themselves. And this is where they can sometimes come together but also can find their individual path.

To return to the original post - it made me stop and think and that, for me, is the definition of a great post.
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  #303  
Old 10-13-2016, 10:48 PM
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I think you make a good point about generational differences and the separation by circumstances that Charles and his siblings shared. But, and I cannot emphasise this enough, we do not know how close they are as a family.

After seeing Harry tossing Zara's and Peter's kids around with wild abandon at an equestrian event, it was obvious they were all having a great time, the kids knew him so I suspect they are all closer than we know, as are William, Harry and their cousins Beatrice and Eugenie. Harry even holidays with them on occasion at their Chalet with Andrew and Sarah.

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  #304  
Old 10-14-2016, 05:20 PM
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I completely agree about the differences in the two generations' upbringings. I think that absolutely plays quite heavily into the difference between the relationships that have formed between the two groups of siblings. I can't help but assume that those differences -- both of upbringing and of the way their relationships have ended up -- might fuel contrasting ideas of how the family should function on a more formal level.

Basically, for Charles and his generation, the most important relationship for them as royals is to their mother; again, that doesn't mean they don't like each other, only that they don't see a need to coordinate with each other to any significant degree. Charles seemed to expect his boys to follow suit and have their primary relationship be with him, working under the umbrella of his staff, taking on the duties of his foundation, etc. But the way they function seems to suggest that they instead look to each other for that role. That doesn't mean they don't love their father or enjoy him, it doesn't mean they don't respect him (and it doesn't mean they're always happy with each other). But it does change the way they seem to make decisions about how to proceed in their capacity as royals.
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  #305  
Old 10-14-2016, 05:44 PM
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I think a lot of the differences also have to be accredited to positions too. Charles has been heir to the throne since 1952. Second to no one else but his mother as far as royal positions go. When we really think about it, one thing Charles had to do was to actually carve out what the Prince of Wales' role was to be and he's still in that role after decades. There really hadn't been much of a definition of what the Prince of Wales does before Charles and he very well could have structured it to be the playboy "party prince" social butterfly which seemed to be the leanings of the PoW prior to Charles. But define that role Charles did and he perhaps is the hardest working and if you go by measuring accomplishments, the most successful. He did it himself as he had to. Of course, we can also see that he had an example in his father who had to carve out his own role as the Duke of Edinburgh.

With this in mind, I'm sure Charles remembers all too well what his father would have "liked" him to have done with his life just as he expected Charles to get out of Gordonstoun the education Philip had and like a lot of kids growing up, we vow to not be with our children the way our parents were with us. William and Harry's positions on the totem pole in their adulthood is far different than what their father's were and I think that Charles may have actively encouraged his boys to find their own path and to carve out their roles themselves as he did and his father did and so far, I think its working out wonderfully.

So, in reality, I don't think Charles has pushed at all to have his boys follow in his path and take over his trusts and charities and whatnot. William has, however, been slowly but surely getting familiar with the workings of the Duchy of Cornwall as that will fall to William and he is becoming prepared for that.

These people know what they're doing and everything is well thought out in advance. We really only see a fraction of the machinations of what is called the "Firm".
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  #306  
Old 10-15-2016, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Is it?

Not that's it's a popularity contest but I have seen a lot of opinion polls regarding the BRF and I've seen a lot of polls saying William should become the next king after the death of the Queen. I've never seen any poll to suggest people want Harry to become king.

I was 'difficult' and 'shy' at times as kid but grew up to be a responsible adult.

Ken Wharfe has had no contact with William or Harry for 20 years.
it looks like he has an axe to grind. maybe it was not getting invited to the diana concert.
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  #307  
Old 10-15-2016, 07:05 PM
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it looks like he has an axe to grind. maybe it was not getting invited to the diana concert.
I did not get invited either, and I seem to be able to keep an open mind.
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  #308  
Old 10-15-2016, 07:56 PM
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It was worse for me. They didn't even tell me there was going to be a concert let alone give me an invite to it. I've not been the same since. Oh woe is me!
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  #309  
Old 10-23-2016, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
I think you make a good point about generational differences and the separation by circumstances that Charles and his siblings shared. But, and I cannot emphasise this enough, we do not know how close they are as a family.
I have to agree. Going by public outings can be no judge of anything. A whole life is going on behind the scenes. In one memoir by one of Charles' servants, it is mentioned how often Anne showed up at Highgrove to visit with her brother, even the Queen (and the brothers). Plus the servant mentioned that Zara would just show up to play with her cousins. Clearly, with a family that spends every holiday together (at least in part) there are connections.

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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
After seeing Harry tossing Zara's and Peter's kids around with wild abandon at an equestrian event, it was obvious they were all having a great time, the kids knew him so I suspect they are all closer than we know, as are William, Harry and their cousins Beatrice and Eugenie. Harry even holidays with them on occasion at their Chalet with Andrew and Sarah.
Exactly so. That's a close family. Plus whenever we see Zara with her Uncle Charles (or any of her family) she is very demonstrative. All seems in order.

BTW Charles apparently read to his young brothers as a big brother, when he wasn't away at boarding school.

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Cute!
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  #310  
Old 10-23-2016, 01:43 AM
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When do we ever see Harry interacting with George and/or Charlotte as we have with Harry tickling and roughousing with Zara's daughter? The occasions when Harry and the Cambridges get together for lengthy periods of time so a real relationship could grow between uncle and nephew and niece are few and far between as far as I can see.

Of course when Harry sees them there would be fun, but it's hardly on a daily or even weekly basis, IMO. The Cambridges are based in Norfolk for most of their leisure time, Harry in London when not travelling with friends.

He might well go to Sandringham for the odd shooting weekend with friends and see the Cambridge family at Anmer then (perhaps, maybe,) and the same when the Cambridges are at KP there could be an evening together, but at the moment it appears that the brothers lead fairly separate lives. It could well be different when Harry marries, has a family, but that's how I see it at present anyway.
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  #311  
Old 10-23-2016, 01:56 AM
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Curryong, every thing you posit is supposition, not fact. Not so? There is absolutely no way for you to be able to state as fact who is visiting who, when, or how often. That's just so. Would you agree?

For example, I have had occasion to be surprised that Prince Charles is often abroad on private trips. There is absolutely no press about it. I have started to wonder if when it is reported that he is spending long weeks at Balmoral, or Birkhall, might those be times he is actually traveling? Dunno, just a thought. My point is, we know very little about the royals' private lives, unless someone tittle-tattles.
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  #312  
Old 10-23-2016, 01:59 AM
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William and Harry are close to their older Philips cousins. That is quite evident. William and Zara appear to be especially close. It's only a year age difference between them. They would have grown up together with Highgrove and Gatcombe Park being close by. Harry bridges the gap with his younger York cousins.

On the surface, Charles would seem closest to his sister than his younger brothers. He also seems to have a close relationship (closer than it seems with his brothers)with his first cousins David and Sarah who are in the same age range of Andrew and Edward and spent much time with the Queen's family. Charles is godfather to one of Sarah's son and David's son is named after Charles.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
When do we ever see Harry interacting with George and/or Charlotte as we have with Harry tickling and roughousing with Zara's daughter? The occasions when Harry and the Cambridges get together for lengthy periods of time so a real relationship could grow between uncle and nephew and niece are few and far between as far as I can see.



Of course when Harry sees them there would be fun, but it's hardly on a daily or even weekly basis, IMO. The Cambridges are based in Norfolk for most of their leisure time, Harry in London when not travelling with friends.



He might well go to Sandringham for the odd shooting weekend with friends and see the Cambridge family at Anmer then (perhaps, maybe,) and the same when the Cambridges are at KP there could be an evening together, but at the moment it appears that the brothers lead fairly separate lives. It could well be different when Harry marries, has a family, but that's how I see it at present anyway.

If Harry walks across the grounds of KP to Apt 1a, we aren't going to know about it. If William and Kate takes the kids to Clarence House or Highgrove we aren't going to know about it. I haven't ever seen a photo of Michael Middleton holding George or Charlotte but I firmly believe he does.

Harry didn't have to follow his brother to KP. He could have stayed under the umbrella of his father's staff. He didn't have to form a foundation with his brother, do joint engagements with his brother and his sister in law. He chose to do all of those things.


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  #313  
Old 10-23-2016, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
When do we ever see Harry interacting with George and/or Charlotte as we have with Harry tickling and roughousing with Zara's daughter? The occasions when Harry and the Cambridges get together for lengthy periods of time so a real relationship could grow between uncle and nephew and niece are few and far between as far as I can see.

Of course when Harry sees them there would be fun, but it's hardly on a daily or even weekly basis, IMO. The Cambridges are based in Norfolk for most of their leisure time, Harry in London when not travelling with friends.

He might well go to Sandringham for the odd shooting weekend with friends and see the Cambridge family at Anmer then (perhaps, maybe,) and the same when the Cambridges are at KP there could be an evening together, but at the moment it appears that the brothers lead fairly separate lives. It could well be different when Harry marries, has a family, but that's how I see it at present anyway.
I agree. I don't believe there is any animosity or strain between the brothers, but I've always maintained that they move in different orbits and aren't major players in each other's personal lives. I see them is having a more Charles-Anne type closeness rather than a bond like Elizabeth-Margaret, or Peter-Zara, or Beatrice-Eugenie.

Heck, I think Harry is much closer to Eugenie than he is to his brother. And that's not a bad thing, because like I said there's no animosity. Just different people who are a more natural fit with other people.
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  #314  
Old 10-23-2016, 02:57 AM
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Much of what we post here is opinion and conjecture.

I'm not saying that we know everything about the Cambridges and Harry's private lives. However, I do keep a close eye on Harry's doings, his popping off to Sweden and to Germany on private trips for instance. Nor am I saying the brothers aren't friends, the shared memories of their childhood and their mother's death and its aftermath would ensure that, I should think.

However, IMO, with the Cambridges MOSTLY living a family life in Norfolk, and Harry MOSTLY based in London, as a bachelor with his mostly London based circle of friends, the brothers' lives have for the time being gone in separate directions. Therefore, except for official engagements they probably, IMO, don't see that much of each other.

If it's conjecture to post that Harry may well not have that close a relationship with George and Charlotte due to his not seeing them every week, why is it not conjecture to build a whole scenario on Harry being constantly at Apartment 1a, taking food etc? That provided fodder for a dozen posts ages ago, yet it was based entirely on one weak throwaway joke by William.
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  #315  
Old 10-23-2016, 03:18 AM
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They do have such a thing that's called a telephone. You can use it to call people you don't see a lot in order to keep in touch. Nowadays you can also use Skype and talk for free for hours.
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  #316  
Old 10-23-2016, 03:21 AM
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From Good Morning America interview with Mrs Obama and Harry ...

“I have to say that the most precious thing – if you haven’t already fallen in love – is to see him with his nephew,” Obama told Robin Roberts of Harry after kicking off the Invictus Games on Sunday night.
Obama noted that the little Prince didn’t understand why Harry was on his best behavior around President Barack Obama and the First Lady, explaining, “Throughout he was like, ‘Uncle Harry, Why are you so quiet?’ ”
Added Harry, “Usually I’m throwing him around the room and stuff.”...




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  #317  
Old 10-23-2016, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
From Good Morning America interview with Mrs Obama and Harry ...

“I have to say that the most precious thing – if you haven’t already fallen in love – is to see him with his nephew,” Obama told Robin Roberts of Harry after kicking off the Invictus Games on Sunday night.
Obama noted that the little Prince didn’t understand why Harry was on his best behavior around President Barack Obama and the First Lady, explaining, “Throughout he was like, ‘Uncle Harry, Why are you so quiet?’ ”
Added Harry, “Usually I’m throwing him around the room and stuff.”...




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That's nice. But I don't think anyone is claiming that Harry has never met or interacted with his nephew - at least I hope not, that would be bonkers.

I'm sure Harry loves George and Charlotte just like he loves William.

Just like I'm sure Charles loves Anne, Peter, and Zara. Heck, we've had very cute and affectionate pictures of Charles and Zara interacting.

That doesn't mean Charles and Anne are very close, or BFFs, or often spend their free time together. They like William and Harry seem to move in their own orbits.
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  #318  
Old 10-23-2016, 03:55 AM
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However, you don't have to physically near someone to have a relationship with them. Lots of adult siblings don't live near each other. I don't live near mine. I see her in person three times a year but we talk or text almost every day.

As an adult you can also choose who you interact with. We see William and Harry interacting all the time. We don't see the Queen's children doing engagements with their siblings but we see Harry and William doing it all the time.


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  #319  
Old 10-23-2016, 04:33 AM
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However, you don't have to physically near someone to have a relationship with them. Lots of adult siblings don't live near each other. I don't live near mine. I see her in person three times a year but we talk or text almost every day.

As an adult you can also choose who you interact with. We see William and Harry interacting all the time. We don't see the Queen's children doing engagements with their siblings but we see Harry and William doing it all the time.


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1. I agree that siblings don't need to be physically close to be emotionally close. Look at Beatrice and Eugenie. They went to different boarding schools, Universities, and Eugenie lived in NYC for 2 years while Beatrice was in London now they switched and Beatrice is in NYC and Eugenie is in London. Yet, the two sisters appear to be as close as ever. They probably talk and text everyday like you and your sister do. Even Harry's close bond with Eugenie survived her living in NYC. But the distance is besides the point. When I look at Harry and William, I don't see a Beatrice-Eugenie type bond, or even a Harry-Eugenie type bond.

2. We see Harry and William interact at royal engagements. And it makes sense they team up professionally because they are both part-royals and are both under Charles' financial umbrella. Charles and Anne were a different story. Charles is/was the heir and funded himself through the duchy of Cornwall. Anne is funded through The Queen and thus has a completely different staff. Charles and Anne also seem to have different charitable interests. Where William and Harry have both made wildlife, mental illness, etc. into focus points, and thus they consolidate Charles' limited financial resources. But when it comes to their down time or personal lives they don't seem to spend more time with each other than Charles and Anne do.



Once again, I don't think Harry and William dislike each other. They have warmth between them. They don't have a relationship like Andrew and Charles which is rumored to be prickly. They also don't appear to have a drama-filled, turbulent relationship like Diana and her 3 siblings. I see a pleasant yet somewhat detached relationship.
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Old 10-23-2016, 05:23 AM
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We see probably less than 1% of their personal lives and what they may or may not do with it.

I can speculate that William is probably in Norfolk because the Cambridges spent several days in London and there is a gap from last Tuesday's to this Monday's engagement for William so he probably had some air ambulance shifts in between. I have no clue where Harry spent his weekend.

I personally see a closest between the 2 brothers, look at them at London 2012. William and Harry went to events together without Kate. Look at their interactions at the England Wales rugby World Cup, the visit to the Star Wars set, the Batfa Aardmann Studios Shawn the Sheep event. The James Bond Premier that William and Kate could have attended by themselves but Harry came along too.

William will have financial independence from his father when he is the Duke of Cornwall. I bet the joint engagements between W and H still continue.


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