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  #221  
Old 06-23-2017, 06:46 PM
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I saw 'journalist/royal biographer' Penny Junor on tv last night saying PH didn't have to walk behind his mother's coffin, he was given a choice. Was she present when the discussions took place? Did someone who knows someone, who knows someone else give her that info? Did she just guess? Finally PH gets to give his feelings about what took place and because it doesn't jive with what others have said or because it was 20 years ago, there's all this unnecessary whining. Like I said earlier, I'm looking forward to William and Harry's upcoming interviews about their mother. It may not fit the script or history as some feel, however it is their story to tell.
Also, choice can be influenced indirectly. The adults may have said or possibly even thought they were giving William and Harry a choice whether or not to walk, but William and Harry may have felt pressured to do so all the same. They were emotionally vulnerable and still children who had suddenly lost one the the most important people in their lives.
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  #222  
Old 06-23-2017, 08:07 PM
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Speaking of Penny Junor, now I see she's flogging a new book giving Camilla's side of the story. Supposedly she had access to Camilla's friends etc. Unbelievable! Yet some people are so upset by a sentence from a long Newsweek interview that Harry gave. He was a child when his mother was abruptly taken from him.

Seems that there were and still are a lot of manipulative people around with ulterior motives no wonder Harry and William are so desperate to stand up for their beloved mother.
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  #223  
Old 06-23-2017, 08:12 PM
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His quote about walking behind the coffin, saying that wouldn't happen today, makes me suspect that in hindsight some in the family have concluded there were other options not thought of at the time that would have been better, some different way of having children participate visibly without feeling so exposed in their grief. The BRF, like the rest of us, learn from missteps and adjust.
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  #224  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:18 PM
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Also, choice can be influenced indirectly. The adults may have said or possibly even thought they were giving William and Harry a choice whether or not to walk, but William and Harry may have felt pressured to do so all the same. They were emotionally vulnerable and still children who had suddenly lost one the the most important people in their lives.
Well put, O-H Anglophile. It was a shocking time. I'm sure the adults were reeling, certainly Charles was, especially given his task. The most difficult in the world, with his youngest son wanting to come on the trip. They did the best they could, with massive public and press pressure, even political pressure.

But it reminds me of Charles indicating the pressure he felt to marry Diana from his father's letter. I've mentioned this before, but it keeps popping up, how vulnerable the key members of the BRF are to public pressure. Hard way to live.

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Speaking of Penny Junor, now I see she's flogging a new book giving Camilla's side of the story. Supposedly she had access to Camilla's friends etc.
Thank you for the heads-up. Am going to look for it. Do you know the title? It's not showing up when I do a search.
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  #225  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:19 PM
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I have a lot of close family in the UK also, however with differing opinions. Most felt as I do in that it was interesting to read about Harry's opinion in the entire Newsweek article. Overall he has shown interest and dedication to various charities, some of which my family also support.

Indeed, I believe a PR disaster and what is disrespectful to the Harry and William is the unnecessary retelling of betrayal and pain that continues to diminish and tarnish the Monarchy. If it is true that this book was sanctioned by Camilla and Charles then I truly do not understand what they, the heir to the throne and his wife were thinking. Poor William and Harry, can't even get to commemorate the 20th year of their mother's death, without selfish people who should know better, causing them more pain.

New Biography of Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall on Her Affair with Prince Charles

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Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
I live in Norway now but I have subscriptions on most UK newspapers/websites and have access to UK TV channels through the tvpc link and I talk to my mother, stepfather, half brothers and friends who live in the UK often, and as you wrote: The vast majority think that he has a life of privilege and it comes at a cost. If he doesn't want to pay it, then leave.

This is as you also wrote the response from ordinary people (including friends of mine.)

So in the UK this is actually not just a PR disaster, it's a huge PR disaster.



1. He doesn't think before he speaks and that have to change quickly.

2. When Harry says: ''Is there any one of the royal family who wants to be king or queen? I don’t think so, but we will carry out our duties at the right time'', then the manipulating British press will of course write that Harry says no-one in the royal family wants to be King/Queen. And I have to say that it surprises me that he did not see it coming. Is he really that naive?




I don't take Max Hastings seriously, but more serious people like Dickie Arbiter who have always praised Harry for what he does, is now saying ''that he has done much for mental health and has been good at talking about his own feelings, but that we now have reached a point where enough is enough.''

I have pro royal friends at my age (25-30) who now accuses him, William and Charles for being spoiled lazy idiots who are damagaging the monarchy, and who now says they want the UK to become a republic when the Queen dies. (And how people can call Charles lazy is without my comprehension)

I have an angry mother and grandparents who accuses Harry of being disrespecting to the Queen.

Several commentators and ordinary people have also come to the conclusion that Harry blames HM because he had to go behind his mother's coffin.

That's not what we call good PR, and what's even worse is that this has hurt the monarchy.
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  #226  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:29 PM
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Well, it's not available in the US yet, I guess. It's not coming up.

I (for one) am eager to hear the 'other side'. It is a genuine love story that should be told. IMO.
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  #227  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:32 PM
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If you think that is disaster wait till you read the Camila story in the DM. Anything Harry has done is nothing compared to his father and stepmother it mightn't be straight from their mouths but their friends
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  #228  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:37 PM
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If you think that is disaster wait till you read the Camila story in the DM. Anything Harry has done is nothing compared to his father and stepmother it mightn't be straight from their mouths but their friends
I don't agree. I don't think the two can be equated. One is speaking for others (specifically: a son ascribing feelings to the father by inference); the other is the story of a love that has had great importance (like it or not) for a future monarch. Different. Not the same. (Why should Diana always govern the situation, every dialog? What is that about?)
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  #229  
Old 06-23-2017, 10:11 PM
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well, Diana, her feelings and reactions and love for Charles will also come into the book too, I would guess, unless Miss Junor is going to leave a great deal out.
I think it is a pretty appalling idea actually, however Penny Junor approaches it. It's a story of adultery and betrayal, of Charles's wife and Camilla's husband after 1984/86, four children were involved, and if Charles and Camilla are endorsing and cooperating with this book, I'm amazed they want the whole scandal brought up again in the time before Charles ascends the throne.

Edit: I see Penny Junor's publishers are going to release the book on June 29th this year. What an interesting, and calculated, date. Just in time for the two docos in which Diana's sons will participate, talking about their feelings about their mother's death and funeral.
Serialised in the DM too. William, Harry and other members of the BRF like the Queen and Prince Philip will enjoy this rerun of the war of the Wales, I'm sure.
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  #230  
Old 06-23-2017, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
I don't agree. I don't think the two can be equated. One is speaking for others (specifically: a son ascribing feelings to the father by inference); the other is the story of a love that has had great importance (like it or not) for a future monarch. Different. Not the same. (Why should Diana always govern the situation, every dialog? What is that about?)
Great love story?a story of adultury, and betrayal.
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  #231  
Old 06-23-2017, 10:38 PM
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Great love story?a story of adultury, and betrayal. As you said. Always, they are trying to take advantage o Diana so evil
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  #232  
Old 06-23-2017, 10:42 PM
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The more I think about it, as much as I do admire Harry's openness and candor recently, I can very much see where this one statement about being King is a good example of "open mouth, insert foot". He may not have intended the statement to garner the reactions that it did but sometimes when one doesn't choose their words properly and with a lot of thought, they just come out so very wrong.

Of course we're never going to hear about his family's reaction to his words but I can't imagine them being overly happy at the way a statement could insinuate that they could even resent their roles but plug on because that is their "duty".

Charles has defined his role as Prince of Wales excellently and I see no reason to believe that won't continue when he is king. William (and Kate) are very much following in the example the whole family sets and draws the line between public duties and private lives and thoughts.

Sometimes in order to get things right though, one has to make a mistake in order to learn from it.
After further thought after my previous post, I feel the same way. I don't believe Harry meant these words the way they came out. Unfortunately, the press has interpreted them the way they want to create drama. It is easy to blame to press, but unfortunately this is what the press does. They create drama, twist intended meanings, and blow things out of proportion to make money. I wish Harry (and William) would just quit being so open with the press when they give interviews. I think there is a place for it like with their mental health initiative. But for the most part, they just need to be silent and don't give the press any ammunition, and for goodness sakes, don't give the anti-monarchists any ammunition. On a personal note, I wish they would be more like the Queen and just maintain an air of mystery, which is one of the things that makes the monarchy so attractive to me. I don't want to see how ordinary they are because then they become very uninteresting.
I wish they would just do their duties and support causes they are interested in (giving interviews only in direct relation to those causes). Another thing I noticed in the article was that it indicated that Harry wasn't interested in any curtsying. I really hope that does not die out with the Queen and Charles, but I fear it will. The more ordinary they become, the more I will lose interest, and I fear many others will too. I really hope Harry has learned his lesson.
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  #233  
Old 06-23-2017, 10:56 PM
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Great love story?a story of adultury, and betrayal.
Definately not a 'great love story'...I would not care to read it.

While I do think Camilla has done a good job as the Duchess of Cornwall and apparently made Charles happy...no one needs reminding about what went on...books about this will just be hurtful to the children involved.


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  #234  
Old 06-23-2017, 11:35 PM
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Let's not get into the Charles and Camilla stuff here folks.
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  #235  
Old 06-24-2017, 12:02 AM
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Gee whiz, it might benefit many of us to not sit in judgment and instead reflect on our own lives, eh! Wowza with the rush to judgment in here. Good grief, and thanks be to heaven for the more sound, thoughtful and reasonable voices who have articulated their less strident opinions.

I guess there will always be those who can't get enough of on those royals for anything and everything that doesn't meet up with media vultures and 'royal followers' self-centered and high-minded approval!

IMO, Prince Harry is the 'bee's knees,' right along with his lady companion MM. Whether they are in it for the long haul or not, I wish them well. IMO, MM likely has been and is very supportive of Prince Harry in his desire to come into his own and to craft a meaningful and productive role as a royal. Part of that, as Harry obviously sees it, is being as forthright and open as possible, particularly in relation to the public work he is doing with his charities. He's certainly protective of his privacy, and I personally think he is quite careful and cautious about OTT media prying. But he also has an open and somewhat cheeky personality, which he is learning how to manage in a positive fashion. He's obviously been through a hellish emotional roller coaster as an adolescent and young adult. I for one am glad to see he's making it to the other side. It's not a piece-of-cake living in a fish bowl with the whole world having an opinion about your every move, every utterance, every girlfriend, and every blown-out-of-proportion public smooch!

Meanwhile, I think it pays to take anything printed in the media with a grain of salt. Prince Harry did not give the interview yesterday, and as mentioned it was part of a long term project with a journalist following Harry around. I worked in magazine publishing, and I know that articles are planned and written usually months in advance of publication (generally about 3 months or so ahead for monthly publications, but the planning for some projects is far earlier in advance than that). In this case, its been reported that the interview took place last October. Lots of things occur during the editing process, let me tell you. Plus, it's very easy to slant a piece the way editors desire for whatever reason. Fact checking can be an exhaustive process, but it isn't always done carefully or extensively, especially by weeklies.

That said, it seems clear to me that Prince Harry was responding in an extended way to questions he was asked. And it was in part a rhetorical question, "Does anyone want to be King or Queen?" Harry ended up answering his own question, but it was still rhetorical. And reflecting on such a question is not out of the ordinary, as we've seen similar pondering by other modern European royals. Let's face it, even past royals like Prince William of Gloucester, who was not close to ever inheriting the throne, chafed at not being able to live a normal life. In William of Gloucester's case, because of old-fashioned, antiquated attitudes that were further complicated by the long shadow of the 1930s era 'abdication crisis,' he was robbed of being able to marry the older woman he loved. Months after agonizingly parting from her, he died suddenly and tragically. His story is a revelation and it needs to be told and widely disseminated, but I think it is painful for many older members of the royal family to have this grievous wound reopened. As the older royals continue to pass on, hopefully more about this dashing, endearing and swoon-worthily handsome Prince William can be shared.

Linking the below for those who haven't seen the 2012 documentary about William of Gloucester: "I felt that as a member of the royal family, I was somehow expected to behave in a particular way... [I'd like to be treated] perfectly naturally."


Prince Harry was not complaining or whining in any way, shape, or form. He has already achieved more significant accomplishments of a positive nature in his young life than many of us ever will in our own. I don't envy or begrudge him anything. I'm happy for him and his brother that they've been able to traverse the rough seas they've weathered so publicly their entire lives. I admire how they are living their lives and what they are doing with their charity, Heads Together. The more I see and hear them speak, the more I admire and respect the caring and responsible young men they have become. They are not perfect. No one in the royal family is, and none of us are either. We all have to deal with the cards we are dealt.

Some of us should probably try to get our heads out of the clouds of antiquated royal snobbishness and tsk-tsking 'tude.

Anyway, here's Good Morning America's more positive take, but yeah it's us Americanos... And remember that grain of salt, will ya?!
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  #236  
Old 06-24-2017, 12:12 AM
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Wonderful post, MaiMia! Nothing I can add, I agree with all your points.
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  #237  
Old 06-24-2017, 03:25 AM
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I appreciate your considered observations as well @Curryong.

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... IMO both Harry and William needed less "ordinary" and more "royal". When you think of their ages and what they have achieved it's not an awful lot. William's "job" keeps his flying hours up and OK Harry's career was, to all intents and purposes, taken away in this age of instant communications which made his army situation untenable.

But fair dues! Ordinary men and women would be on the dole in their situations and competing for jobs with younger, more qualified people. They witter on about "Ordinary" yet do not live ordinary lives, they are merely acquainted with some of those who do... Harry buys his chops in a supermarket and thinks that makes him 'ordinary'. He is royal and should be pulling his royal weight and following Queen Mary's famous dictum ‘We are a member of the British royal family. We are never tired, and we all love hospitals.’

Has he ever thought about the life and choices (or lack thereof) of ordinary men, the devastating loss of a parent in a family that ends up scrounging up enough money to bury them with respect? No Nannies, no loving families surrounding and enabling them because there is now only one income instead of two and they are about to lose their house.

Ordinary! Pffft!
Pffft is right. Pray tell what it is you feel William and Harry need to have accomplished at 'their ages.' I've never heard either William or Harry complain of being 'tired.' If you'd like to see Prince Harry visiting hospitals, there are plenty of pictures and stories of him visiting hospitals and extending his time in a caring and thoughtful way to do what he can to cheer and support those in need. Not to mention his other charitable endeavors, and his many acts of kindness and genuine caring.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/349062...l-wards-visit/
If this story and those pictures don't wring our emotions on a number of levels, I'm not sure what will. It's quite clear to me that Prince Harry is a very loving and genuinely caring human being who adores children to the depths of his heart and soul.

Prince Harry's heartwarming embrace with terminally ill boy, 5, at Wellchild awards in London | London Evening Standard

Prince Harry meets disabled children in Chile - BBC News

Disabled Hucknall teenager praised by Prince Harry for work helping poorly children | Nottingham Post

Prince Harry on his decision to leave the military (scroll to 3:51):


In my opinion, both William and Harry likely know more about the struggles and challenges of 'ordinary' people, than you happen to think they do. I've never heard either of them express a wish to be 'ordinary.' I have heard them talk about the fact that they are normal human beings with similar faults, emotions, and aspirations of other normal human beings.

And btw, Prince William does a lot more than simply 'keep his flying hours up,' with the important work he does as an air ambulance pilot. He doesn't blowhard about the things he has done and seen in his line of work, which involves helping to rescue and give aid to people who are injured, lost, or otherwise in grave situations.

William: "The Queen believes in [us] finding our own path... with the right people and family members around to offer guidance... [She believes in] mixing the traditional with the modern... I take my royal duty and responsibility very seriously. But it's about finding your own way at the right time... If you're not careful, duty can weigh you down an awful lot at a very early age, and you've got to develop into the duty role... I have my finger in many pies at the moment, and as time passes I hope to take on more... I'm going to get plenty of criticism over the course of my lifetime. It's something that I don't completely ignore, but it's also something I don't take completely to heart... The idea of duty and service to others is very important, but if I can't give my time to my children as well, then I worry about their future. I want to bring them up as good people... Plus, serving the community [in my role] with the air ambulance is very important to me... I certainly don't lie awake waiting and hoping... [to be king] because it sadly means that my family have moved on, and I don't want that."
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  #238  
Old 06-24-2017, 04:35 AM
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Exactly. It was unutterably the wrong thing to have allowed to have happen. Both William and Harry should have been left alone at Balmoral. The tabloids (and perhaps the PM) have a great deal to answer for regarding how they fed into the Diana-mania-fannish-hysteria, rather than let sanity prevail. (I hope Harry understands how the BRF's hand was being forced, and does not 'blame' them for the ordeal; it had everything to do with the public mania at the time). IMO.
I doubt that the boys would have wanted to miss their mother's funeral. In any case, males walking behind the coffin of a major deceased member of the royal family is a royal tradition. Check out any number of royal funeral processions from Queen Victoria, Edward VII, George VI, and on through the Duke of Windsor and beyond. In the case of the Queen Mother in 2002, Prince Harry and Prince William once again walked behind the coffin of a departed loved one. On this occasion, they were accompanied by soldiers in uniform and scads of male members of the royal family and of the Queen Mother's household. In a break with tradition, a female member of the royal family joined the male procession: Princess Anne (The Princess Royal).

The death of Diana, was of course very different, unexpected and enormously tragic. As has been said by others, it was an extraordinary time of unrequited grief, shock, and high emotions. I read an article from a few years ago in which it was said that a conference call argument (between the Prime Minister and others) ensued after Prince William announced he did not want to walk behind his mother's coffin. Prince Philip reportedly cried out in defense of his grandson to let him do what he wanted (expletive deleted)! And then Prince Philip offered to support William and Harry by walking with them. It was not mentioned in that article what Prince Harry's feelings were at the time. But as Harry noted during his recent candid interview, he was only twelve-years-old! Amidst all the surreal drama and grief, he surely was having a hell of a time processing any of his emotions.

Probably, due to their ages and to the sudden and tragic nature of what happened, Prince William and Prince Harry should have more wisely been allowed to stand next to the Queen as their mother's coffin passed by, and then be driven in a car with the Queen to the church. Meanwhile, Charles Spencer, Prince Charles, and Prince Philip (representing his grandsons) could have been the ones to walk behind the coffin (perhaps accompanied by a few soldiers in ceremonial dress). ETA: I had another thought -- why couldn't Diana's sisters and/or her sisters' husbands also walk behind the coffin in lieu of Diana's adolescent boys (one of whom reportedly expressed a desire not to do so)?

Here's a picture of the Queen Mother's funeral procession:
http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/0d80cab288...ion-aat5p7.jpg
William and Harry to follow Queen Mother's coffin - Telegraph

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Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
... Another thing I noticed in the article was that it indicated that Harry wasn't interested in any curtsying. I really hope that does not die out with the Queen and Charles, but I fear it will. The more ordinary they become, the more I will lose interest, and I fear many others will too. I really hope Harry has learned his lesson.
Why on earth do you care so much about 'curtseying'??? I would imagine that those in the public who meet the royals and feel curtseying is such a 'thing,' can continue to do so out of admiration and respect. Possibly its more that Prince Harry and other younger royals feel that curtseying protocol amongst 'lesser' and 'major' members of the firm is rather silly, antiquated and unnecessary. Excepting of course from showing the Queen, Prince Philip and other venerable elders due respect.

What do you mean when you say, 'the more ordinary they become...' They are all human beings, not mythical creatures. I truly doubt any member of the royal family are overly concerned about people who profess to being willing to 'lose interest' in them for strange reasons.

Once Diana, Princess of Wales was stripped of her 'HRH' title after the divorce from Prince Charles, fourteen-year-old Prince William reportedly told her, "Don't worry Mummy, I will give it back to you one day when I am king."

According to protocol, after being stripped of 'HRH,' Diana was supposed to curtsey to other members of the royal family, including her own sons!
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  #239  
Old 06-24-2017, 11:04 AM
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Prince Harry escapes row over claim that no royal wants the throne by jetting off on a ten-day safari at £350-a-night luxury African camp

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  #240  
Old 06-24-2017, 11:23 AM
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Oh lord love a duck! Its the Fail once again putting things into *their* perspective of things. Not even going to open something that is blatantly geared as click bait.

I'm sure that if Harry is away on personal time, it was planned long before any of these controversies that have cropped up recently came about.

Besides, what's wrong with going on an African safari? Sounds like something fun to do in my book and is available to whomever has the money to book one.
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