The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1241  
Old 03-15-2018, 08:00 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 14,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Was Autumn a British subject at that point? An alternative explanation is a change of mind. It hasn't been used for Mike, so it won't be used any longer for any future consents (the next most likely being the Cambridge prince(sse)s...).
Autumn was a Canadian citizen at the time and as Canada has HM, The Queen of Canada, I would presume that yes, Autumn falls into the category as one who has The Queen as her Head of State.
__________________

__________________
No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it.

~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #1242  
Old 03-15-2018, 08:02 PM
AdmirerUS's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 6,003
Has anyone here even thought about the LACK OF CAPITALIZATION OF PHRASES in the doc and what meaning that conveys? There are complete phrases that ARE NOT IN CAPS and my heart flutters to think of what that means for the future of the realm.

I may not sleep tonight.
__________________

__________________
"And the tabloid press will be a pain in the ass, as usual." - Royal Norway
Reply With Quote
  #1243  
Old 03-15-2018, 08:05 PM
ACO ACO is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 2,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The most logical explanation, to me, is the the "our beloved and trusty" adjectives denote a subject of Her Majesty's realm. It has absolutely nothing to do with her personal feelings whatsoever.
Possibly. Good speculation. Who knows.

Also didn't notice "Our most dearly beloved " vs "My most dearly beloved"
Reply With Quote
  #1244  
Old 03-15-2018, 08:09 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 3,511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Autumn was a Canadian citizen at the time and as Canada has HM, The Queen of Canada, I would presume that yes, Autumn falls into the category as one who has The Queen as her Head of State.
Of course! Didn't think it true

One other thing. Some noticed that difference in 'my' vs 'our' beloved grandson. In the queen's announced it states 'my' but in the official document 'our' (plural) is used (in all references to the Sovereign).
Reply With Quote
  #1245  
Old 03-15-2018, 08:21 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 14,178
Another possible explanation may lie in who exactly was sitting in on this meeting of the Privy Council.

Its my understanding that not all Privy Councilors are required to grant the Instrument of Consent. Its possible that when drawing up William and Kate's, Philip was among the Privy Councilors at the meeting and hence the use of "our beloved grandson". Philip may not have sat in on the meeting for Harry and Meghan's and therefore, the use of "my".

Just a thought from an caffeine deprived one brain cell.
__________________
No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it.

~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #1246  
Old 03-15-2018, 08:24 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 8,932
“Our” seems along the line of the royal “We”.
Reply With Quote
  #1247  
Old 03-15-2018, 08:27 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: -, Netherlands
Posts: 1,454
Roger Bacon, the inventor of the magnifying glass, can be proud of himself.
Reply With Quote
  #1248  
Old 03-15-2018, 08:34 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,827
There is a difference between the Declaration of Consent and the Instrument of Consent.



Declaration of Consent to the marriage of Prince William of Wales and Catherine Middleton

https://privycouncil.independent.gov...9-feb-2011.pdf

MY LORDS,

I declare My Consent to a Contract of Matrimony between My Most Dearly Beloved Grandson Prince William Arthur Philip Louis of Wales and Catherine Elizabeth Middleton, which Consent I am causing to be signified under the Great Seal and to be entered in the Books of the Privy Council.



Declaration of Consent to the marriage of Prince Henry of Wales and Meghan Markle

http://privycouncil.independent.gov....ess-Part-1.pdf

MY LORDS,

I declare My Consent to a Contract of Matrimony between My Most Dearly Beloved Grandson Prince Henry Charles Albert David of Wales and Rachel Meghan Markle, which Consent I am causing to be signified under the Great Seal and to be entered in the Books of the Privy Council.





Instrument of Consent to the marriage of Prince William of Wales and Catherine Middleton

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYV028kWkAM3Yys.jpg:large
https://www.royal.uk/her-majesty-que...rine-middleton

Elizabeth the Second by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith

To all to whom these Presents shall come, Greeting!

WHEREAS by an Act of Parliament intituled "An Act for the better regulating the future Marriages of the Royal Family", it is amongst other things enacted "that no descendant of the body of His late Majesty King George the Second, Male or Female, (other than the issue of Princesses who have married, or may hereafter marry, into Foreign Families,) shall be capable of contracting Matrimony without the previous consent of His Majesty, His Heirs or Successors, signified under the Great Seal, and declared in Council":

NOW KNOW YE that We have consented and do by these Presents signify Our Consent to the contracting of Matrimony between Our Most Dearly Beloved Grandson Prince William Arthur Philip Louis of Wales, K.G., and Our Trusty and Well-beloved Catherine Elizabeth Middleton

IN WITNESS whereof We have caused Our Great Seal to be affixed to these Presents

GIVEN at Our Court at Buckingham Palace the ninth day of February Two thousand and Eleven in the Sixtieth year of Our Reign

BY THE QUEEN HERSELF SIGNED WITH HER OWN HAND



Instrument of Consent to the marriage of Prince Henry of Wales and Meghan Markle

http://privycouncil.independent.gov....ess-Part-1.pdf

ELIZABETH THE SECOND, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Our other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, To all to whom these Presents shall come, Greeting!

WHEREAS by an Act of Parliament entitled "Succession to the Crown Act 2013", it is amongst other things enacted that "a person who (when the person marries) is one of the 6 persons next in the line of succession to the Crown must obtain the consent of Her Majesty before marrying", such consent to be signified under the Great Seal, declared in Council, and recorded in the books of the Privy Council:

NOW KNOW YE that We have consented and do by these Presents signify Our Consent to the contracting of Matrimony between Our Most Dearly Beloved Grandson Prince Henry Charles Albert David of Wales, K.C.V.O., and Rachel Meghan Markle.

In Witness whereof We have caused Our Great Seal to be affixed to these Presents.

Given at Our Court at Buckingham Palace the Fourteenth day of March 2018 in the Sixty-seventh year of Our Reign.

BY THE QUEEN HERSELF SIGNED WITH HER OWN HAND
Reply With Quote
  #1249  
Old 03-15-2018, 08:35 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 12,414
I just went back through the CC in 2011 and Philip did not attend any council meeting prior to the wedding.

I have only been reading the CC since 2002 but other than the day when both Camilla and William were appointed members of the PC I have no recollection of any member of the BRF actually attending other than The Queen.

Of the over 600 members usually there are 4 - 5 members actually present.
Reply With Quote
  #1250  
Old 03-15-2018, 08:38 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 8,932
Thanks Tatiana Maria
Reply With Quote
  #1251  
Old 03-15-2018, 08:59 PM
Lady Nimue's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Pacific Palisades CA, United States
Posts: 4,421
What a fun discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
No it's not. We're comparing apples to oranges.

This is the OFFICIAL copy (the apple) which matches William and Kate's official copy.

It is NOT Harry's more elaborate and decorative copy (the orange) which will be his to keep and won't be released until days before his wedding.

If Harry and Meghan's orange doesn't match William and Kate's THEN we can debate this.
Seems reasonable to me.
__________________
Russian National Anthem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGoNaLjQrV8
O Magnum Mysterium: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWU7dyey6yo
Reply With Quote
  #1252  
Old 03-15-2018, 09:06 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 14,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I just went back through the CC in 2011 and Philip did not attend any council meeting prior to the wedding.

I have only been reading the CC since 2002 but other than the day when both Camilla and William were appointed members of the PC I have no recollection of any member of the BRF actually attending other than The Queen.

Of the over 600 members usually there are 4 - 5 members actually present.
That shoots my theory right down the drain. Good thing about making mistakes though is that one gets the opportunity to learn from them.

Where else in the world can someone log on and explore the ins and outs of an enactment of the Royal Marriage Act even down to the specific wording and discover just what the Privy Council does.

I love this discussion.
__________________
No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it.

~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #1253  
Old 03-15-2018, 09:09 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 8,932
Tatiana Maria’s post points out the difference. ‘My’ was used for both William and Harry in the declaration of consent and ‘Our’ was used for both William and Harry in the instrument of consent.
Reply With Quote
  #1254  
Old 03-15-2018, 09:22 PM
Nico's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,464
Uh oh so there is a difference?
Maybe because she's a divorcee ? Anyone seen the Instrument of Consent for Charles and Camilla ?
Reply With Quote
  #1255  
Old 03-15-2018, 09:23 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 5,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Tatiana Maria’s post points out the difference. ‘My’ was used for both William and Harry in the declaration of consent and ‘Our’ was used for both William and Harry in the instrument of consent.
The relevant difference though is that William’s instrument of consent included the words “ our trusty and well-beloved”, whereas Harry’s did not.
Reply With Quote
  #1256  
Old 03-15-2018, 09:29 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,537
Look...I don't see what the big deal is!! Meghan Markle has been treated like a member of the royal family since her engagement. And, she and Harry will have big roles in the upcoming CHOGM next month. No one can dispute that the Queen and the BRF have welcomed and supported Meghan.

But let's be honest, Harry and Meghan have known each other for less than 2 years. W&K knew each other for around a decade and dated for 7 years before becoming engaged...even living together for many years. IMO, Kate had a lot of time to prove how trustworthy she was....Meghan hasn't.
Reply With Quote
  #1257  
Old 03-15-2018, 10:24 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Bellevue, United States
Posts: 1,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Thanks Tatiana Maria
Now I understand what you meant.

The DECLARATION OF CONSENT (the apple) uses the same wording as William's.

But the INSTRUMENT OF CONSENT differs ("trusty and well-beloved" in Catherine's case but not Meghan's). This is the document that was made public shortly before William's wedding (the orange). But in Harry's case it was published with the DECLARATION OF CONSENT and follows it on the Privy Council website.

So we have both the apple and the orange and the oranges differ.

You were right, I was wrong. I apologize for my mistake. And my stupidity too.
Reply With Quote
  #1258  
Old 03-15-2018, 10:31 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torrance, United States
Posts: 4,184
Gwain-Please do not be so hard on yourself. It isn't always easy keeping up with the Windsors.
Reply With Quote
  #1259  
Old 03-15-2018, 10:35 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 8,932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
Now I understand what you meant.

The DECLARATION OF CONSENT (the apple) uses the same wording as William's.

But the INSTRUMENT OF CONSENT differs ("trusty and well-beloved" in Catherine's case but not Meghan's). This is the document that was made public shortly before William's wedding (the orange). But in Harry's case it was published with the DECLARATION OF CONSENT and follows it on the Privy Council website.

So we have both the apple and the orange and the oranges differ.

You were right, I was wrong. I apologize for my mistake. And my stupidity too.
I’m wrong more often than not so We all learn from each other on here which makes it a great forum
Reply With Quote
  #1260  
Old 03-15-2018, 10:40 PM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Texas, United States
Posts: 3,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
Out of curiosity, do you think the Queen personally writes these consents or is it a mere formality by the time the consent is actually given?
It's her grandsons wedding. I'm sure she reads and signs off on what she is signing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
I don't. As AlowVera points out the document matches the wording used in William and Catherine's.

The words "trusty and well-beloved" only appear in William and Catherine's own copy, issued on April 21, 2011, just eight days before their wedding.

If Henry and Meghan's copy - which presumably will be issued days before their wedding - doesn't include those words then AND ONLY THEN will we have reason to wonder.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Catherine.html
So if this is official and the document released today is identical to WnK's first document why are people still up in arms? Wait for the document released in May; though if it does contain the words people will just say it's fake sincerity because of the hoopla over this version.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Meghan Markle: Future Tiaras and Jewels soapstar Royal Jewels General Discussion 178 09-07-2018 03:20 PM
Meghan Markle: Family and Background - November 2017-May 2018 soapstar The Duke and Duchess of Sussex and Family 3421 06-19-2018 02:39 PM
Meghan Markle: Wedding Dress Suggestions and Musings soapstar Royal Style File 1819 05-19-2018 07:22 AM
Meghan Markle: Wedding Tiara and Jewelry Suggestions and Musings Tilia C. Royal Jewels General Discussion 999 05-19-2018 07:02 AM




Popular Tags
administrator alqasimi aristocracy belgian royal belgian royal family chittagong countess of snowdon crown crown prince hussein's future wife crusades current events danish history denmark duchess of cambridge duchess of sussex duke of sussex dutch history french royalty future wife of prince hussein general news germany headship henry v house of bernadotte house of glucksburg house of grimaldi house of orange-nassau jumma kiko king philippe letter lithuania lithuanian palaces marriage mbs meghan markle monaco royal monarchist monarchy monogram naples nelson mandela bay nobel prize norwegian royal family official visit pakistan potential areas prince charles prince daniel prince harry princely family of monaco princess benedikte qe2 queen mathilde queen paola rania of jordan romanov family rown rumania savoy shakespeare south korea spanish royal state visit sweden swedish history united kingdom usa valois windy city


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:10 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019
Jelsoft Enterprises
×