Joachim and Alexandra News: August 2004 - September 2004

[hillary_nugent]

Although many Chinese don't really consider her one of them but do the Cantonese consider her somewhat Cantonese? i mean wasn't she born in Hong Kong?

[felipa]

Originally Posted by hillary_nugent

Although many Chinese don't really consider her one of them but do the Cantonese consider her somewhat Cantonese? i mean wasn't she born in Hong Kong?

Mainland Chinese, including those who speak Cantaonese, don't consider her as Chinese at all. ( Btw, this Cantonese dialect is spoken in Guandong & partially Guangxi provinces.) As how the HK people think of her, you may have to check with ppl who are from there.

[Julia]

Alexandra besøger PUKPolfoto 01-09-2004 En kører fortæller om sin sport til prinsesse Alexandra. Prinsessen besøgte onsdag Københavns Gokart Bane på Amager hvor hun fulgte med i livet en eftermiddag i Politiets Ungdoms Klub. Prinsesse Alexandra var inviteret af ungdomsklubben som tak for den økonomiske støtte, hun har ydet klubben gennem Prins Joachims og Prinsesse Alexandras Fond. (Magnus Møller/POLFOTO)

[Julia]

More from the Copenhagen Gokart club (is that correct???)

Having a look and chatting with the drivers...

[Alexandria]

Great pictures Julia! I particularly love the second photo from the first set. Alexandra looks radiant.

[Julia]

Originally Posted by Alexandria

Great pictures Julia! I particularly love the second photo from the first set. Alexandra looks radiant.

Thanks! Alexandra does look very radiant in that second photo. One of the best candids taken of her this year!

[galuhcandrakirana]

Originally Posted by felipa

Never mind. We Chinese have never claimed that Princess Alexandra has anything to do with China except the fact she used to live in HK. She is always discribed as "British-born" Princess by British media. Maybe next time you should make clear that you are not British in any shade?

I am not British by blood nor by law. I even don't live in British teritory or ex-teritory or commonwealth country)... I like a hardworking person that the one make me in love with Alexandra, and also her dedicate to her adopt country. oh...btw I wrote I'm not from that country just an instant reaction after heard my coleague's comment that the one who like or support Alexandra is chinesse, austrian, poland etc and the one like marry mostly Australian. I am not agree 100% with her comment.

[galuhcandrakirana]

Originally Posted by Julia

Alexandra besøger PUKPolfoto 01-09-2004 En (Magnus Møller/POLFOTO)

She looks fantastic as usual,......thanks for the photos Julia

[Jasl]

Originally Posted by felipa

Never mind. We Chinese have never claimed that Princess Alexandra has anything to do with China except the fact she used to live in HK. She is always discribed as "British-born" Princess by British media. Maybe next time you should make clear that you are not British in any shade?

It is not only the British media that considers Alex "British-born" - the Danes do it all the time too, and that's how she's been presented to the world.

I have friends from HK and when I ask them if they consider themselves British-born (because I was confused too), they say no. Most of them readily recognise that they were under the protectorate of the UK, and you can readily detect some kind of ... well not sure, not loyalty to Britain, but some feeling of assurance (perhaps arrogance even? but in a good way) that they could retain their British citizenship (or a form of it) after the handing over, but I can't imagine many HK Cantonese readily calling themselves "British-born".

I only have a vague idea about this but HK was I believe never really considered as part of Britain, rather it was considered as a British territory, just as India, Australia, South Africa, Canada etc were once British territories... yet it is unlikely that people born from these countries would call themselves "British-born". It would be like people from New Caledonia calling themselves "French-born" - its just not the done thing. Indeed, its more likely that people from HK would consider themselves, first and foremost, as Cantonese, rather than British (perhaps there's the rub... the ability or inability to speak fluent Cantonese etc). I mean Alex being "British-born" is a bit like some senior/old Indian born in India calling himself "British-born". Or someone from Greenland calling themselves "Danish-born". I just don't think its that common and to me anyway, is kind of misleading. So that's why I was a bit confused about the description of Alex as British-born. Perhaps if they had said of British descent (partly British), then that would make more sense.

BUT! Alex is now Danish, and a very good one at that! So everything else is all in the past because her life, her family, her work is now in Denmark and she is now Danish :)...

[galuhcandrakirana]

Originally Posted by Jasl

It is not only the British media that considers Alex "British-born" - the Danes do it all the time too, and that's how she's been presented to the world. .............So that's why I was a bit confused about the description of Alex as British-born. Perhaps if they had said of British descent (partly British), then that would make more sense.

Refer to patrilineal system which adopted by the British (it also has found in Chinese culture) Alex is British. Alex father is a son of a British man (as we all already know) so he is a British…then Alex as her father’s daughter is automatic British by blood; British by British custom; British by British government law (even she was born and growth in Hong Kong). It was not clear for me if your Hong Kong friends have similarity with Alex situation or they don’t have British blood at all, if they do not have more likely they don’t like to call themselves as British-born especially after Hong Kong has returned to China mainland. Btw if British media consider her as a British-born I think they do what they know exactly.

It would be like people from New Caledonia calling themselves "French-born".

Where did you get this information…a friend of mine with Kanak father and French-European mother even does not call herself French-born…She always said she is Kanak with French nationality (I don’t know if it because of she has a feeling against French ‘metropole’ government ) and as she said to me that many kanaks even don’t want to call themselves French. Anyway I respond this matter just want to share a little news I have. Lets go back to Alex.


BUT! Alex is now Danish, and a very good one at that! So everything else is all in the past because her life, her family, her work is now in Denmark and she is now Danish :)...[/quote] I absolutely agree.

[Jasl]

Originally Posted by galuhcandrakirana

Refer to patrilineal system which adopted by the British (it also has found in Chinese culture) Alex is British. ...Btw if British media consider her as a British-born I think they do what they know exactly.

Yes I think you're right there. But still I think if Mary for example, were to call herself "British-born", having as she does a full-bloodied Scot for a father and was a holder of a full British passport, I would still call it misleading. And so because it would be misleading, and I think a slight on her country (Australia), she has always considered herself Australian-born and not British born.

In regards to being called "British-born" by the British, well some people in the press are very lax in their research, for example, Hola saying that Mary wore midriff-bearing tops to weddings... so not true, and Australian media calling Mary a lawyer. Australians ought to know that she's not a lawyer because they know the correct admission process to become a solicitor in Australia, yet they incorrectly labelled her as a lawyer. Its more likely that the British press adopted what's been previously written (like the lawyer thing and middriff bearing thing), rather than a re-affirmation of the truth.

Where did you get this information…a friend of mine with Kanak father and French-European mother even does not call herself French-born…She always said she is Kanak with French nationality (I don’t know if it because of she has a feeling against French ‘metropole’ government ) and as she said to me that many kanaks even don’t want to call themselves French. Anyway I respond this matter just want to share a little news I have. Lets go back to Alex.

But that's exactly what I'm saying!!! Your friend finds it abnormal to call herself French even though she has some French blood and French citizenship. I think your friend's situation is very similar to Alex's - having a parent with some French (in Alex's case British) blood, and having some sort of French (in Alex's case British) citizenship, yet was born in New Caledonia (Hong Kong) and grew up there. So New Caledonians labelling themselves French would be unnatural for them just as I would have thought it would be unnatural for Alex to call herself British-born. Or just as it would be unnatural for Mary to call herself British born. You know what I mean?

BUT! Alex is now Danish, and a very good one at that! So everything else is all in the past because her life, her family, her work is now in Denmark and she is now Danish :)...[/quote] I absolutely agree.[/quote]
I knew you'd agree with that! Coz its definitely true. Just wish they'd stick to "Hong-Kong born" that's all. Its likely that Alex would prefer that, seeing as that's how she's described in the royal website.

[moosey60]

I don't think it matters where she's from. The important thing is that she's a beloved princess who's done much for her country and her family.
Although, I don't consider her Chinese at all. She only looks somewhat Asian...

[Jasl]

Yes Alex has been in Denmark all these years and she is now Danish (though i still think she ought to be referred to as "Hong Kong born" and not the somewhat misleading "British-born".

Anyway, something on Prince Joachim:

Kalender 03/09 04 H.K.H. Prins Joachim deltager i åbning af IT-Universitetet i København og indvielse af universitetets nye bygning i Ørestad, kl. 10.00.

[pepperann]

Originally Posted by moosey60

I don't think it matters where she's from. The important thing is that she's a beloved princess who's done much for her country and her family.
Although, I don't consider her Chinese at all. She only looks somewhat Asian...

Well, you can't exactly say that...the "...I don't consider her Chinese at all" part. It's a fact that she's got Chinese in her blood too, along with British, Austrian Polish. As for looking somewhat Asian, the correct term would be Eurasian. Just my two cents. =)

[pepperann]

Originally Posted by Jasl

Yes I think you're right there. But still I think if Mary for example, were to call herself "British-born", having as she does a full-bloodied Scot for a father and was a holder of a full British passport, I would still call it misleading. And so because it would be misleading, and I think a slight on her country (Australia), she has always considered herself Australian-born and not British born.

In regards to being called "British-born" by the British, well some people in the press are very lax in their research, for example, Hola saying that Mary wore midriff-bearing tops to weddings... so not true, and Australian media calling Mary a lawyer. Australians ought to know that she's not a lawyer because they know the correct admission process to become a solicitor in Australia, yet they incorrectly labelled her as a lawyer. Its more likely that the British press adopted what's been previously written (like the lawyer thing and middriff bearing thing), rather than a re-affirmation of the truth.


But that's exactly what I'm saying!!! Your friend finds it abnormal to call herself French even though she has some French blood and French citizenship. I think your friend's situation is very similar to Alex's - having a parent with some French (in Alex's case British) blood, and having some sort of French (in Alex's case British) citizenship, yet was born in New Caledonia (Hong Kong) and grew up there. So New Caledonians labelling themselves French would be unnatural for them just as I would have thought it would be unnatural for Alex to call herself British-born. Or just as it would be unnatural for Mary to call herself British born. You know what I mean?

BUT! Alex is now Danish, and a very good one at that! So everything else is all in the past because her life, her family, her work is now in Denmark and she is now Danish :)...

I absolutely agree.[/quote]
I knew you'd agree with that! Coz its definitely true. Just wish they'd stick to "Hong-Kong born" that's all. Its likely that Alex would prefer that, seeing as that's how she's described in the royal website.[/quote]



I agree with you Jasl. The thing is, you can hardly ever believe 100% what the media says/writes. There main goal is to sell and make money! Money the root of all evil! Though you really can't live without it.

[galuhcandrakirana]

Originally Posted by Jasl

Yes I think you're right there. But still I think if Mary for example, were to call herself "British-born", having as she does a full-bloodied Scot for a father and was a holder of a full British passport, I would still call it misleading. And so because it would be misleading, and I think a slight on her country (Australia), she has always considered herself Australian-born and not British born…….. as I would have thought it would be unnatural for Alex to call herself British-born. Or just as it would be unnatural for Mary to call herself British born. You know what I mean?

Alexandra’s sister in-law can considered herself as Australian-born; British-born and of course as Tasmania(n?)-born because she was born in Tasmania and her parents was willing to give their new baby born the same citizenships they have, then she can choose the most she likes to be called (I don’t get what you meant with ‘it would be unnatural for Mary to call herself as British born’, I wonder if you are a bit confuse between the meaning of British and Britain)…but Alex (as I know so far) just only had British citizenship, it was the only one she get from her parents…Hong-Kong ‘state’ did not even exist when she was born until she left HK for Joachim so she could not get ‘Hong-Kong citizenship’ to be able for her called as Hong-Kongese or hongkongese-born (or Chinese-Hong-Kong. I will use Hong-Kongese for while until somebody can give me an information about what did Hong-Kong people have call themselves before 1997 unless British). Refer to Alex’s family history I still don’t think that it’s the most right one to call Alex as ‘Hong-Kongese’ because Alex’s paternal grandmother (the only her Chinese blood source) to be said from Shanghai then she is not ‘Hong-Konges’ origin (refer to Alexandra book in Lotte website: “Richard Manley, who with his family, moved to Hong Kong in 1948 from Shanghai…. The grandmother has also said as Chinese with Persian heritage” then we can’t guess how many percent exactly Chinese blood Alexandra has), so, on base of what Alex must call herself as ‘Hong-Kongese’, and then if she could not call herself as Hong-Kongese and British what was her nationality before married?.

Will you call British couple’s baby (no matter both of the baby’s parents are British origin or just half origin) an Aborigine if the baby was born and grows up in Aborigine ancestral land while his parent serve as a teacher there? The baby is not even automatically called as Australian even the land under Australia federation territory (As I know that Australia rule allows the baby automatically to be Australian if their parent stay more than 3 years in Australia before the baby born and of course also if the parents agree). The baby can be considered as Australia-born but not always (in case the parents disagree) as Australian-born.

Originally Posted by Jasl

I still think she ought to be referred to as "Hong Kong born" and not the somewhat misleading "British-born".

She still can be said as Hong-Kong-born, refer to the place where she was born.


Well we can not say that everybody agree with the world’s existed custom or law, people always have their own opinion but in fact we live under this situation….since Kanak, Tahitian, Guadaloupean, (French) Guyana, (French) Careebean, etc under French rule they are internationally considered as French just like Aborigine people or indigenous people from Christmas Island (or from other islands in the north part of Queensland) Internationally are considered as Australian no matter they/or other people like it or not.….

So I think for this matter (internationally) the press is on the right path to call Alexandra a British-born, but if Alex prefers to be said as ‘Hong-Kongese’-born I think it just fine for her and also for me.

[konan]

In the German Press there are rumours about a divorce between Joachim and Alexandra, in case they should live their own lives apart from each other. Does anybody knows more about it?

[Jasl]

Will you call British couple’s baby (no matter both of the baby’s parents are British origin or just half origin) an Aborigine if the baby was born and grows up in Aborigine ancestral land while his parent serve as a teacher there? The baby is not even automatically called as Australian even the land under Australia federation territory (As I know that Australia rule allows the baby automatically to be Australian if their parent stay more than 3 years in Australia before the baby born and of course also if the parents agree). The baby can be considered as Australia-born but not always (in case the parents disagree) as Australian-born.

Aborigines are the indigenous people of Australia, but they are not the only Australians. The child of foreigners will never be called an Aborigine, firstly, because only indigenous Australians can be called that, and also because, you're right, that child will not have Australian citizenship. However in my experience, it is more normal for an Australian child from migrant parents who were not Australian citizens when they were born, to refer to themselves as "Australian-born" not ebcause they held Australian citizneship when they were born, but because they were born in Australia. Its something to be proud of, so the place of birth is recognised: "I am Australian-born" (not "I am Greek-born" because my parents received their citizenship after my birth"). If the physical place of birth gives you an opportunity to call yourself Australian-born, then you grab it with both hands. It is something to be proud of.

For example, Mary's parents were still Scots when she was born, so they were fully British. Mary was born in 1972 and it wasn't until 1975 that the Donaldsons added Australian citizenship to their British one. Therefore Mary was British when she was born. But because of the strength of her connection with Australia, and the fact that she lived here for 28 years and because she embraced being Australian, made the fact that she was British-born insignificant - absolutely no-one even refers to it. The only time we even come close to it, is when we are reminded that Mary held dual British-Australian citizenship before her change to the Danish one. But she has alsways been called "Australian born". I suppose that's my whole point - how can one live in a country for 30 years and still refer to oneself as being so and so born, when the link to that other country is so very tenuous compared to the land of their birth (especially in regards to time spent on that island compared to that faraway place)?

As you pointed out, there is no "Hong-Kong" citizenship. Everyone in Hong Kong (barring foreigners and people not from HK) had a form of British citizenship. Yet it is very unusual for people from Hong Kong to call themselves British-born isn't it? Alex wasn't the only one in Hong Kong who had some form of British citizenship - everyone in Hong Kong (not foreigners) had British citizenship (one form or another). Yet in almost all cases (that I know of), they do not refer to themselves as British-born. Just as Kanaks in New Caledonia would not want to refer to thems