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  #41  
Old 03-26-2015, 07:14 PM
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Thank you. Lovely earrings for Princess Marie.
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  #42  
Old 04-17-2015, 12:52 PM
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This may warrant a completely new thread.

My question is: What is Joachim going to do now?

Our Marie is no issue here IMO, she still have her protections and obligations as the secondary princess she is.

Joachim is the main issue here.
Schackenborg was sold and J&M are financially very secure now and so are their altogether four children. Recent polls have suggested that the public may not be prepared to have Joachim's children live of an apanage, simply because with eight children in the DRF there is a limit to how many working princess and princesses DK realistically need.
So Joachim's children may well prepare themselves for a position akin to Princess Elisabeth or Count Ingolf. I.e. showing up for grand occasions and perhaps have a protection or two but otherwise only being one generation away from being commoners.

Now, with Schackenborg no longer being his direct responsibility and probably living from investments, what is Joachim going to do with the added time at his disposal?
It has been almost a year since the sale of Schackenborg and allowing for time to untangle himself from the estate, and establishing a new home in Copenhagen it is soon time IMO for Joachim to come out and more clearly define his new role.

There are in my eyes two options:
Taking on more protections, and that could very much mean taking over from perhaps primarily his father and/or getting more and deeper involved in some charities, like becoming a board member in CARE and similar organizations. Perhaps also becoming a board member in WHO, which PH has been involved a lot with for many years.
Also, constitutionally speaking there is also still a role for Joachim for the next ten-fifteen years, should QMII be too frail to function or die, since we must expect Christian to study abroad after he turns eighteen. So Joachim will still have to step in as Rigsforstander from time to time.

The second option is for Joachim to announce that he (but not Marie) will give up his apanage and settle for an expense account and only take on royal duties when he is needed. In that way he is basically free to spend his whole day at the golf course if he wish to as he is no longer a "state employee". In that way he will have made himself an independently wealthy semi-commoner, who do not have to be accountable to anyone. Except that he as a member of the DRF can't involve himself with politics and business that is not very personal.
That option I think is unlikely. It will also put pressure on Countess Alexandra should he do that.

What he can't do is to continue as now. That is, being in a some kind of work-limbo. Otherwise in six months from now, the papers will justifiably ask about his status and what the state actually gets in return for his apanage. Countess Alexandra is getting considerable negative press for receiving an apanage and not doing much work in return, so will Joachim.

A third option which is unrealistic for the next eight years at least. i.e. until Felix turns eighteen, is to settle most of the time abroad, probably France or Switzerland. He can then do a Benedikte and return when needed as Rigsforstander and when he has a duty in connection with a protection.
That will reduce the number of active adult DRF members to four (later six), - M&F, Christian and Isabella, with two more adults as spares, J&M. We must assume that in ten-fifteen years from now the regent Couple are either dead or de facto inactive.
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  #43  
Old 04-17-2015, 12:58 PM
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Will be interesting to see.
and i hope he gets more of a define role.
in the past months, I had seen more work events for Marie than Joachim.

With his financial future more than secure, and Alexandra still being paid by the state, there might be a few more negative press towards him.

He use to do overseas economic trips, but Frederik with Mary have taken over that.
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  #44  
Old 04-17-2015, 01:03 PM
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I hope this isn't a silly question but here goes! Does Marie receive a separate state allowance from Joachim?
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  #45  
Old 04-17-2015, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by crm2317 View Post
I hope this isn't a silly question but here goes! Does Marie receive a separate state allowance from Joachim?
Joachim gets the apanage, but he and our Marie divide it in some way.
Basically Marie already has an "expense account".
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  #46  
Old 04-22-2015, 01:41 PM
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From August 1, 2015 - The couple will have a new secretary

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1 August 2015 joins Colonel Soren Bo Bojesen as new private secretary at TRH Prince Joachim and Princess Marie Hof.
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  #47  
Old 04-25-2015, 07:04 AM
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How is Prince Joachim seen in Denmark? In the open comments sections in Danish media (I know, I know, open sewer, etc. but still...) I understood a lot of negativity towards him, connected to the sale of Shackenborg and the "refusal" to continue the family-business at the Château de Caïx.

I must say, a life in France, also with an eye on his children and his French-born spouse, living in the beautiful Cahors region, with swimming pool et al... Hmmmm... could be worse... Prince Joachim's grandchildren could continue a life outside Denmark with his paternal surname De Laborde de Montpezat and the Danish comital title Count (Countess) de Montpezat. Privacy and a good life guaranteed...

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  #48  
Old 04-25-2015, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
How is Prince Joachim seen in Denmark? In the open comments sections in Danish media (I know, I know, open sewer, etc. but still...) I understood a lot of negativity towards him, connected to the sale of Shackenborg and the "refusal" to continue the family-business at the Château de Caïx.

I must say, a life in France, also with an eye on his children and his French-born spouse, living in the beautiful Cahors region, with swimming pool et al... Hmmmm... could be worse... Prince Joachim's grandchildren could continue a life outside Denmark with his paternal surname De Laborde de Montpezat and the Danish comital title Count (Countess) de Montpezat. Privacy and a good life guaranteed...

Joachim is not and has rarely been particularly popular in the eyes of the average Hansen.
He has an aristocratic air about him, he speaks posh, he insist on maintaining the proper form (i.e. formal you), he is not a person whom people warm to at once when you meet him and he is not a particular open person.
So all in all he is seen as pretty arrogant.

He gained considerable popularity while being married to Alexandra, mainly because she was popular and glamorous. But also because Frederik at that point went through the period where he was reluctant and insecure about his future role and apart from driving cars and chasing the odd model what was he doing? While Joachim was married, got children and settled down, so perhaps Joachim would be a better king?

Then came Mary and M&F became the superstars. Not least following the shock of the divorce between Joachim and Alexandra. Joachim initially got practically all the blame, because Alexandra was genuinely popular and she was rarely seen making any mistakes. - That view has changed somewhat as you know...
That Joachim went on the odd binge in his despair didn't exactly help his reputation.

Then our Marie came and her (sometimes reluctant(!)) popularity rubbed off on Joachim as well, not least because he started to let his hair down in public.
Then came the sale of Scackenborg. Joachim was labelled a failure who was bailed out by his wealthy friends. And even though quite a few have started to actually look at the figures and the fact that Joachim was never asked whether he wanted to run a manor, he is still considered a failure and a deserter by many.

So Joachim has inherited his father's curse: Being the least popular member of the DRF. - Whether that is deserved or not is up to you, you of course know my opinion.
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  #49  
Old 04-25-2015, 09:40 AM
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Thanks for the insightful reply. I have always liked Prince Joachim, especially because of that regal air around him. When the guests arrived at Christiansborg Palace for Queen Margrethe's 75th birthday, I saw that it was -beside the Queen- only Prince Joachim who really inspected the guard of honour lined up inside. That was respectful and I like that. The Prince's ascetic looks in combination with this tall figure also help to have a regal attitude.

Are people in Denmark really expecting that they can address Queen Margrethe, Prince Henrik, Prince Frederik and Prince Joachim on informal level? Using the formal form signals distance and respect and there is nothing wrong with that. Imagine a German saying Du against the Bundespräsident. Never. They will always use Sie. Or a French speaker who says Tu to King Philippe or to Grand-Duke Henri? Never. They will always say Vous. Or a Dutch speaker who says Jij to King Philippe or King Willem-Alexander? No way. Instinctively the form U will be used. That does not count for Kings. That counts for any person with whom they are not familiar with.
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  #50  
Old 04-25-2015, 09:49 AM
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I know we shouldn't compare different monarchies, but in the Netherlands at the moment it's quite common to call the king "Willy" in public media (and not even meant derogatory or anything, just an affectionate phrase), and i expect there will certainly be people in the public if he walks around in public on King's day who will address him as "jij" instead of the formal "U"...
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  #51  
Old 04-25-2015, 04:58 PM
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The formal you is indeed a pretty strange thing.

I think most people would automatically address QMII with formal you, they just don't like being told to. It's also more natural for someone her age and position.
I also think many people would find it more natural to address M&F's generation with informal you and even expect to be allowed to. - But the very same people could get themselves in trouble if they used the same informal address outside DK.
I'm not sure whether it's ignorance, lack of respect for other forms of address or a tall poppy syndrome. I'm probably not the right one to answer such a question anyway.

For me it would be natural to address a member of the DRF in a formal manner. I would actually prefer to do so. It's ingrained in me that you show respect for the rank, even if you don't respect the man. I trust you understand what I mean.

I'm glad to learn that the Dutch call King W-A Willy. That means he is doing something right. Also that they address him with informal you when he is say, walking along a crowd. But would these same people address him with formal you, face to face at an audience for example? If so, is it that a good an idea?
Personally I don't think so. Royals are special, that's the basis for the whole concept of royalty. As such there should be a formal distance IMO.

I noticed too that Joachim inspected the honor guard properly. It's a typical Joachim to do that. And it is appreciated by soldiers. You stand there in your finest and you would like to by acknowledged by your commander. So sorry if I p*ss someone off, but it is sloppy of Frederik not to inspect the honor guard.
Unfortunately Joachim is indeed, yes let's say it as it, disliked because he is a stickler for such formalities. It's stiff, and silly and way over the top is the opinion of many. - Except if you are at the receiving end of such a courtesy.
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  #52  
Old 04-25-2015, 05:56 PM
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I thought, and i think someone wrote on here, that there is a difference between the army and navy and the way they inspect the guards. Frederik being very in tune with the military and navy in general, im sure he means no disrespect.

for me, im warming up a bit to Joachim although he does come off as a bit i dunno arrogant.
But compare to other royal siblings to the heirs, Joachim does seem to work for the royal family, although i think he needs to increase his workload more, since he no longer has his farm. Marie seems to have more events recently.
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  #53  
Old 04-25-2015, 06:17 PM
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I thought, and i think someone wrote on here, that there is a difference between the army and navy and the way they inspect the guards. Frederik being very in tune with the military and navy in general, im sure he means no disrespect.

for me, im warming up a bit to Joachim although he does come off as a bit i dunno arrogant.
But compare to other royal siblings to the heirs, Joachim does seem to work for the royal family, although i think he needs to increase his workload more, since he no longer has his farm. Marie seems to have more events recently.
Not as far as I know. There is a difference in the way the honor guard works. On a ship Frederik would be piped aboard, but he would still have to pass the honor guard in a proper manner. Looking the soldiers in the eyes is a commanders accept of a salute. If we are to put in on the edge, it's akin to ignoring an outstretched hand.
The general tone in the navy is way more informal than in the army, that's true.
But when inspecting an honor guard from the army, you do it the army way, no matter what uniform you wear, if any.

I agree with you, Joachim has to step up his workload and soon. That is within the next six months or he will get even more heat than usual.
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  #54  
Old 04-25-2015, 06:46 PM
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thanks Muhler, hmm it might have been a space out moment for Frederik, he usually does inspect them.

And agreed about Joachim, with the news he sold his farm, and then a poor work agenda, and then him not taking over the French wine production...people add it up and think, well what is he doing?
and to add more to it, his ex wife stills receives money from the state.
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  #55  
Old 04-26-2015, 05:30 AM
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thanks Muhler, hmm it might have been a space out moment for Frederik, he usually does inspect them.

And agreed about Joachim, with the news he sold his farm, and then a poor work agenda, and then him not taking over the French wine production...people add it up and think, well what is he doing?
and to add more to it, his ex wife stills receives money from the state.
Perhaps, Frederik might have been going through his speech in his mind. Whatever.

That's Joachim's fault too, you know. He should pay for Alexandra out of his own purse. - Except that he has already paid to Alexandra from his own purse. Her apanage is additional child-support from the state.

Personally I can't blame Joachim if he decided to give up his apanage, take over the wine production at Cayz and move to France permanently. If you can't do anything right, why bother? - Of course he would be blamed big time for that as well!
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  #56  
Old 04-26-2015, 06:02 AM
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That's Joachim's fault too, you know. He should pay for Alexandra out of his own purse. - Except that he has already paid to Alexandra from his own purse. Her apanage is additional child-support from the state.

Personally I can't blame Joachim if he decided to give up his apanage, take over the wine production at Cayz and move to France permanently. If you can't do anything right, why bother? - Of course he would be blamed big time for that as well!
Joachim bought Alexandra a house 10 years ago and doesn't he also pay the normal alimony? I don't see why he should pay her anything else.

The last bit in your post.... Sorry but are you serious?

J&M moved to Cph almost a year ago. So far, it doesn't show in the official calendar. I doubt he will be blamed for all and everything going wrong in the world if they start to be seen more in public.
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  #57  
Old 04-26-2015, 06:16 AM
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I know we shouldn't compare different monarchies, but in the Netherlands at the moment it's quite common to call the king "Willy" in public media (and not even meant derogatory or anything, just an affectionate phrase), and i expect there will certainly be people in the public if he walks around in public on King's day who will address him as "jij" instead of the formal "U"...
I think you can not use the language of comedians as standard for the rest of the country. I have heard no one saying "Hallo Willy, dank voor je komst!" (Hello Willy, thanks for coming!) but it is still "Majesteit, wij zijn vereerd met uw aanwezigheid vandaag". (Your Majesty, we are honoured with your attendance today).

The Tutoiement and Vouvoiement still seems strong in German, French, Dutch, Spanish, etc. It is really not recommendable to be on informal terms when you have a job interview in these countries, unless your intuïtion says that it is okay to do so (for an example when you apply working for an organization with a very informal internal style).

Anyway, I can not blame Prince Joachim for being a bit distant and aloof. I think monarchy must not come too close to the people. A bit of distance and decorum, a bit of mystery, that is the best recipe.



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  #58  
Old 04-26-2015, 07:07 AM
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The use of formal and informal you varies from country to country and from culture to culture. For example my experience with French and Spanish business contacts show that the French are much more formal than the Spanish. I used to work for a wholesale company and nearly every Spanish buyer used very informal language with first names and informal you. The French buyers usually used the informal you and “Madame”. My experience with Dutch people is that they are very quick with using the informal “jij” but my teacher told us that it is still a tradition use the formal “u” for one’s grandparents! (Dutch posters, can you confirm this?) That is not because of the distance within the families, it’s a cultural convention.

Now to my attempts in studying Danish: every textbook I worked with emphasizes that there is no need to study the formal forms, because they are only used to address members of the Royal Family. (Can the Danish posters confirm this?) Because if that is true I understand why some leftist journalist challenge this language use.

If you use the formal forms for the police officer, the judge, the prime minister, etc., it is natural that you use for the Royals as well. But if the Royals are the only ones who expect this form of address, then this might be hard to swallow for some.

I wrote this because I wanted to show that maybe it is not helpful to compare the Danish issue with other countries. To my it seems to be an issue that is entirely rooted within the Danish culture itself.
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  #59  
Old 04-26-2015, 07:30 AM
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Joachim bought Alexandra a house 10 years ago and doesn't he also pay the normal alimony? I don't see why he should pay her anything else.

The last bit in your post.... Sorry but are you serious?

J&M moved to Cph almost a year ago. So far, it doesn't show in the official calendar. I doubt he will be blamed for all and everything going wrong in the world if they start to be seen more in public.
I am.

I do believe if he wish to remain an active member of the DRF with apanage and all, that he should step up his workload - and soon.
Let there be no doubt about that.

But I won't knock him on the head if he decides to pull the plug and opt out of the DRF as a working member.
If you face a physical obstacle you have a number of options:
A) Climb the thing.
B) Find a way around.
C) Climb the thing and die trying.
D) Give up.

With people it's even harder. Because if people have decided they don't like you, the obstacle can be almost insurmountable.
And that's Joachim's main problem. He is not folksy, he lacks people skills and people have decided they don't like him.

But keep in mind that while Frederik was in Greenland finding himself and finding a meaning with his future as king and not least finding Mary. (And fortunately he did! On all three counts. For Frederik as well as Denmark. Or we would very well have had an unhappy Crown Prince by now).
While that went on, Joachim was working on a pretty derelict estate, while also taking part in official functions and travels. He was raising a family and trying to mend a marriage that for whatever reasons was creaking in the seems. Not getting much help from Alexandra BTW, because she's a city-person and Schackenborg is about as far from the city as you can possibly get here in DK, unless you move to a very small island.
Then his marriage failed. It could happen to anyone, but Joachim got all the blame.
He had to pay big time to his ex-wife. That wouldn't exactly have helped his finances in running the estate on top of all the other worries and the feeling of failure he must have had.
Yet, he still went out and did his duty.

Has that been acknowledged? Not much. Because many people have decided they do not like Joachim.
So why not say goodbye and move to France?
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Old 04-26-2015, 07:57 AM
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My experience with Dutch people is that they are very quick with using the informal “jij” but my teacher told us that it is still a tradition use the formal “u” for one’s grandparents! (Dutch posters, can you confirm this?) That is not because of the distance within the families, it’s a cultural convention.
in my own (dutch) experience it's still considered decent to address a grown-up you don't know with the formal "u" and only switch to informal "jij/jou" when you are more familiar; but this is slipping and loads of people habitually use the informal address with everyone..
(but for instance, if i meet the director of the company i work for, I would address him with "u", just because I don't really know him that well) (not all colleagues do that though, so it's not mandatory)

In my family we used the informal phrase also for the grandparents (but then, we were never a very formal family to begin with, my grandparents loved having the whole family-bunch together and never really bothered about what they were called )

Officially in written languages there is also a distinction between the formal "u" and formal "U" (the latter, capital U, is in the current official dutch spelling only used for "God and the King" and when addressing other people you'd use small u)
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