The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > Royal House of Denmark > Prince Joachim, Princess Marie and Family

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #261  
Old 07-17-2016, 03:21 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 8,788
And as on queue here is a BT article focusing in particular on Joachim's workload, or lack of it as it is claimed in the article. Så få dage arbejder han: Joachims driverliv

BT has calculated the number of workdays for the individual members of the DRF for the first six months of 2016, whether an event has lasted a few hours or it was a full day event.
Being Regent or Rigsforstander has not been counted in. - Nor has time at the office.
I.e. only events where they have been seen out and about is counted.

Joachim is getting some heat.

But I think I'll leave the details to someone else, lest someone should think I'm biased.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #262  
Old 07-17-2016, 04:44 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 3,470
So the CP who has only done 55 duties is OK because he did a photo call But his brother who on top of duties, works a part time job in defense, gets flack for only doing 30 It would be like calling Edward lazy because he doesn't carry out as much as Charles.

As for the defense 'he has only done 2 engagements' These reporters do realize this is not a ceremonial position where he is going to be out in the public eye everytime he works right??? Just because he doesn't live in the capital doesn't mean he doesn't work.

The reality though, beyond the defense work, any 'planning' isn't taken into account because how can it? They don't punch a time clock. There is no evidence how much planning any royal does for an event beforehand, and what is done by staff. At least an actual job, like defense or flying, there is a concrete set.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #263  
Old 07-17-2016, 05:15 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: san diego, United States
Posts: 5,755
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
And as on queue here is a BT article focusing in particular on Joachim's workload, or lack of it as it is claimed in the article. Så få dage arbejder han: Joachims driverliv

BT has calculated the number of workdays for the individual members of the DRF for the first six months of 2016, whether an event has lasted a few hours or it was a full day event.
Being Regent or Rigsforstander has not been counted in. - Nor has time at the office.
I.e. only events where they have been seen out and about is counted.

Joachim is getting some heat.

But I think I'll leave the details to someone else, lest someone should think I'm biased.
It's always hard to get an exact number. The counting of events can be difficult when not everything is placed on the calendar . In other families every single meeting is placed on the calendar with or without pictures.
I don't agree them not counting the regent days for Frederik and Joachim. This is a big part of their calendar that limits them in ways. Also the audiences and meetings.

With that said, yes I think Joachim needs to work more. Have some issues and themes to focus on.
The reason for the move to Copenhagen was given so he can focus more on the royal duties, that has not happen..
Reply With Quote
  #264  
Old 07-17-2016, 09:11 PM
Archduchess Zelia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 2,495
Regarding the graph, it should be noted that they have only counted on engagement per day of official visits and visits with Dannebrog – and during most official visits QMII, Mary and Frederik generally do multiple engagements per day.

I think this is a very valid discussion to have. And make no mistake, while BT undoubtedly did this piece to sell papers, it also largely reflects the views of the general public – what's the point of funding Joachim when he doesn't seem to bother giving anything in return? Joachim and Marie hold part-time "consulting jobs" with the Danish Defence and the DEMA, respectively, both of which seem like de facto jobs meant as some sort of poor damage control to the criticism they've faced since moving away from Schackenborg. And I do think it's shocking that they can't muster up more engagements than Joachim's retired, 82 year old father. But again, I've never been a big fan of Joachim's (and I have criticised Prince William for doing the exact same thing) so colour me biased

Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
So the CP who has only done 55 duties is OK because he did a photo call But his brother who on top of duties, works a part time job in defense, gets flack for only doing 30 It would be like calling Edward lazy because he doesn't carry out as much as Charles.
This a ridiculous not only because the article is about Joachim and not Frederik (so why would we discuss Frederik's workload here?), but also because if you take a moment to look into Joachim's part-time job, you'll find that the actual amount of time he spends on it is highly dubious. I'm also very curious as to where in the article you find that Frederik is somehow spared from criticism because he attended the photo opportunity in Gråsten? As I mentioned earlier, this discussion is not merely the result of Joachim and Marie skipping out of Gråsten but a general frustration towards them and their lack of visibility.
__________________
"I am Denmark's first female Prime Minister. But you know what? I won't be the last."
— Helle Thorning-Schmidt, former Prime Minister of Denmark

Reply With Quote
  #265  
Old 07-17-2016, 10:12 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: san diego, United States
Posts: 5,755
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
Regarding the graph, it should be noted that they have only counted on engagement per day of official visits and visits with Dannebrog – and during most official visits QMII, Mary and Frederik generally do multiple engagements per day.

.
Very good point.
The official visit to Saudi Arabia and Qatar were certainly more than one event per day. And during the State visit from Mexico it was definitely Frederik and Mary multiple times throughout the day with the presidential couple for the visit.

It's again why it's hard to come up with one simple number.
The fact is Joachim is now in Copenhagen and no longer has the farm business to take up his time. It's now been two years and there has not been an increase of Joachim's workload.
Reply With Quote
  #266  
Old 07-17-2016, 10:19 PM
GracieGiraffe's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Giraffe Land, United States
Posts: 2,533
I suppose we really don't know how much time they put in behind the scenes... or not. I've always wondered how much prep the royal has to do and how much is done by their staff. This goes across the board.

In this case either more transparency is required, or the numbers are non-transparent for a reason.

I suppose this should be on the Graasten thread, and I'll go post it there, but is there any reason for them to miss that shoot? Don't they have the leeway, unlike most of us, to plan their vacations as they want them?
__________________
The future George VII's opinion on infant carriers,
"One is not amused."
Reply With Quote
  #267  
Old 07-17-2016, 10:26 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 3,470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
Regarding the graph, it should be noted that they have only counted on engagement per day of official visits and visits with Dannebrog – and during most official visits QMII, Mary and Frederik generally do multiple engagements per day.

I think this is a very valid discussion to have. And make no mistake, while BT undoubtedly did this piece to sell papers, it also largely reflects the views of the general public – what's the point of funding Joachim when he doesn't seem to bother giving anything in return? Joachim and Marie hold part-time "consulting jobs" with the Danish Defence and the DEMA, respectively, both of which seem like de facto jobs meant as some sort of poor damage control to the criticism they've faced since moving away from Schackenborg. And I do think it's shocking that they can't muster up more engagements than Joachim's retired, 82 year old father. But again, I've never been a big fan of Joachim's (and I have criticised Prince William for doing the exact same thing) so colour me biased



This a ridiculous not only because the article is about Joachim and not Frederik (so why would we discuss Frederik's workload here?), but also because if you take a moment to look into Joachim's part-time job, you'll find that the actual amount of time he spends on it is highly dubious. I'm also very curious as to where in the article you find that Frederik is somehow spared from criticism because he attended the photo opportunity in Gråsten? As I mentioned earlier, this discussion is not merely the result of Joachim and Marie skipping out of Gråsten but a general frustration towards them and their lack of visibility.
Was there an article criticizing Fred for doin 55? No. Or maybe someone can post a link. The fact is he is being criticized for not doing as much as his brother who is the heir. People get all pissed off and up in arms when people criticize other royals for being work shy. But Joachim its ok?

Visibility? I guess he needs to publish his time card or have photos taken as he goes to his defense job because it is not a public event its 'dubious' and doesn't count.

And yes, the article made a clear point of praising Fred for never missing the photos and Joachim missing 2.
Reply With Quote
  #268  
Old 07-18-2016, 03:44 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: xxx, Finland
Posts: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
Regarding the graph, it should be noted that they have only counted one engagement per day of official visits and visits with Dannebrog – and during most official visits QMII, Mary and Frederik generally do multiple engagements per day.
.
If this graph is counting engagements, one event per day during official visits etc, then it's not really very accurate:

F&M visit to Saudi Arabia, 5 days counted as 5 engagements per person, when they really had 23 engagements on the agenda.

Women Deliver conference, 4 days = 4 engagements for Mary, but on the official agenda she had 27 events during those days.

And the same for QM on Dannebrog, F&M during State Visits and so on.
Reply With Quote
  #269  
Old 07-18-2016, 07:49 AM
Muhler's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 8,788
It is indeed getting increasingly difficult to defend Joachim in particular but also our Marie to some extent. In the sense that they receive an apanage.

It would perhaps be wiser if J&M did a Benedikte - i.e. basically having an expense account under QMII. Which means they would get paid for the work they do and not for what is expected of them.

In that way we would still have someone ready to stand in for M&F, while they at the same time are more free to do what they want.
Because in fifteen years Christian and Bella are old enough to begin to sideline J&M in earnest.
Reply With Quote
  #270  
Old 07-18-2016, 08:17 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: xxx, Finland
Posts: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
It is indeed getting increasingly difficult to defend Joachim in particular but also our Marie to some extent. In the sense that they receive an apanage.

In that way we would still have someone ready to stand in for M&F, while they at the same time are more free to do what they want.
Because in fifteen years Christian and Bella are old enough to begin to sideline J&M in earnest.
I don't really understand your "some extent"....?

I thought it odd, that the article concentrated on Joachim. Your Marie has even less official engagements than him, even if the figures in the article aren't completely accurate.


Fifteen years is a long time....Realistically speaking, Frederik could become King next week or next month. The next in line, Christian, and the other kids are all 10 and younger. Joachim & Marie would be needed to do the job the CPC are doing now. Can they just opt out of it and continue with the workload they have if that happens?
Reply With Quote
  #271  
Old 07-18-2016, 08:39 AM
GracieGiraffe's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Giraffe Land, United States
Posts: 2,533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
It is indeed getting increasingly difficult to defend Joachim in particular but also our Marie to some extent. In the sense that they receive an apanage.

It would perhaps be wiser if J&M did a Benedikte - i.e. basically having an expense account under QMII. Which means they would get paid for the work they do and not for what is expected of them.

In that way we would still have someone ready to stand in for M&F, while they at the same time are more free to do what they want.
Because in fifteen years Christian and Bella are old enough to begin to sideline J&M in earnest.
I think it makes more sense, as you suggest, for working royals to live under one big expense account.
__________________
The future George VII's opinion on infant carriers,
"One is not amused."
Reply With Quote
  #272  
Old 07-18-2016, 09:07 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Was there an article criticizing Fred for doin 55? No. Or maybe someone can post a link. The fact is he is being criticized for not doing as much as his brother who is the heir. People get all pissed off and up in arms when people criticize other royals for being work shy. But Joachim its ok?

Visibility? I guess he needs to publish his time card or have photos taken as he goes to his defense job because it is not a public event its 'dubious' and doesn't count.

And yes, the article made a clear point of praising Fred for never missing the photos and Joachim missing 2.
The fact is nowhere in the article it says that he should work as much as his brother, the heir. Joachim is critizised for working as little as his father who is officially retired although J+M's move to Copenhagen a few years ago was officially explained with their workload. He is critizised for not coming to Graasten although he constantly declares how important South Jutland is for him. There is a huge gap between what J+M say and what J+M do. And this article points that out.
And yes, Nordic, Marie is (and always has been since her wedding) the family member with the fewest engagements. It's odd that they don't mention her. Since she is at least half responsible for the couple's "freeloader" image.
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old 07-18-2016, 12:22 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 8,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
I don't really understand your "some extent"....?

I thought it odd, that the article concentrated on Joachim. Your Marie has even less official engagements than him, even if the figures in the article aren't completely accurate.
Because it's not a question of quantity, that is how many events a royal do, not even quality, it's a question of profiling. And in that respect our Marie has a way higher profile than Joachim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Fifteen years is a long time....Realistically speaking, Frederik could become King next week or next month. The next in line, Christian, and the other kids are all 10 and younger. Joachim & Marie would be needed to do the job the CPC are doing now. Can they just opt out of it and continue with the workload they have if that happens?
Yes, they can.

M&F would be in the same situation as the current Regent Couple was in the 70's and 80's. They ran the show on their own, only supported by Benedikte and Queen Ingrid.

Is it desirable to have a couple of royals in perfect working order, not pulling their weight while M&F are all over the place? Absolutely not
But it's perfectly possible.
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Old 07-18-2016, 12:50 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: xxx, Finland
Posts: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
M&F would be in the same situation as the current Regent Couple was in the 70's and 80's. They ran the show on their own, only supported by Benedikte and Queen Ingrid.

Is it desirable to have a couple of royals in perfect working order, not pulling their weight while M&F are all over the place? Absolutely not
But it's perfectly possible.
Did Benedikte and Queen Ingrid have official events at the time, or was it more a question of moral support?

If they did have official events, then the Regent Couple ran the show with two other members of the family. M&F would be on their own, if J&M "opted out".
Reply With Quote
  #275  
Old 07-18-2016, 01:07 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 8,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Did Benedikte and Queen Ingrid have official events at the time, or was it more a question of moral support?

If they did have official events, then the Regent Couple ran the show with two other members of the family. M&F would be on their own, if J&M "opted out".
I thought you meant with their current workload.

I don't think J&M opting out completely is a realistic scenario. Not unless they decided to move to France or something like that. And that would be most odd IMO.

Yes, Benedikte did her bit but not to the extent that she is doing now, she after all had children, husband and the estate at Berleburg to keep her busy.

Queen Ingrid also stepped in on a relatively low key basis. And as you may recall she also stepped in as Rigsforstander, even is she was not in the Line of Succession.

So in a scenario where J&M opted out more or less completely, it would not only be possible that Mary would from time to time be Rigsforstander, it would be inevitable IMO.
(Which would make Mary the de facto head of state from time to time. There is a particular website where they would have a collective heart attack, should that happen... )
Reply With Quote
  #276  
Old 07-18-2016, 01:17 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: xxx, Finland
Posts: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I thought you meant with their current workload.

I don't think J&M opting out completely is a realistic scenario. Not unless they decided to move to France or something like that. And that would be most odd IMO.

Yes, Benedikte did her bit but not to the extent that she is doing now, she after all had children, husband and the estate at Berleburg to keep her busy.

Queen Ingrid also stepped in on a relatively low key basis. And as you may recall she also stepped in as Rigsforstander, even is she was not in the Line of Succession.

So in a scenario where J&M opted out more or less completely, it would not only be possible that Mary would from time to time be Rigsforstander, it would be inevitable IMO.
(Which would make Mary the de facto head of state from time to time. There is a particular website where they would have a collective heart attack, should that happen... )
Sorry, badly put: I meant with their current workload, but if they continue with that if Frederik becomes King next week, it would, for me, be kind of "opting out".

Several members of this board would be having the collective heart attack too...
Reply With Quote
  #277  
Old 07-18-2016, 01:32 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: san diego, United States
Posts: 5,755
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricarda View Post
The fact is nowhere in the article it says that he should work as much as his brother, the heir. Joachim is critizised for working as little as his father who is officially retired although J+M's move to Copenhagen a few years ago was officially explained with their workload. He is critizised for not coming to Graasten although he constantly declares how important South Jutland is for him. There is a huge gap between what J+M say and what J+M do. And this article points that out.
And yes, Nordic, Marie is (and always has been since her wedding) the family member with the fewest engagements. It's odd that they don't mention her. Since she is at least half responsible for the couple's "freeloader" image.
very well stated.
If the numbers are accurate (which I think they are wrong in only counting one engagement per day, since we know F&M do multiple engagements per day especially during official visits; and not counting Joachim and Frederik's regent days, etc...)
if they are correct, we see that Benedikte is doing more than Marie and almost as much as Joachim. Of course, maybe these past months were the heavy ones for Benedikte and the upcoming months will be heavier for J&M, but for me this is off.
take for example the 4 days Women Deliver conference in DK. yes it was very much Mary behind it but if Frederik and Benedikte found a way to attend a few sessions and relate it to their work...was there not one session at least that Marie could have attended?

2 years have gone by since Joachim sold his farm, one of the reasons was that it was hard to balance his royal duties and farm work, now he has no farm and his royal duties have remained the same
Reply With Quote
  #278  
Old 07-18-2016, 09:55 PM
Archduchess Zelia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 2,495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Was there an article criticizing Fred for doin 55? No. Or maybe someone can post a link. The fact is he is being criticized for not doing as much as his brother who is the heir. People get all pissed off and up in arms when people criticize other royals for being work shy. But Joachim its ok?
No. That was my point. We're discussing Joachim because it's an article about Joachim. BT doesn't shy away from criticising any royal so if Frederik's workload (or lack of so) was a problem, trust them to have him be the focus of another article. It's notable, as it has been pointed out before, that this graph apparently counts work days rather than the actual amount of engagements of the individual royal – so that would raise both QMII, Frederik and Mary's scores – the same can't be said for Joachim.

If you had bothered reading my reply to you, this criticism is fed by a general frustration towards Joachim amongst the Danes. And people aren't frustrated that he doesn't do as much as Frederik – no one expects him and Marie to do as much as the Crown Prince couple – as I said before, it is, however, upsetting to people that he can't even muster up more engagements than his retired, 82 year old father.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Visibility? I guess he needs to publish his time card or have photos taken as he goes to his defense job because it is not a public event its 'dubious' and doesn't count.
The criticism directed towards his part-time job is pretty valid. Documents from the meetings he has attended strongly suggest that rather than spending the normal 20 hours a week on this part-time job, that is more likely to be the amount of time he spends on it a year. Which, to me, is the very definition of a de facto job to detract from all the criticism he's getting. So yes, providing some evidence that it isn't just that would greatly help his case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
And yes, the article made a clear point of praising Fred for never missing the photos and Joachim missing 2.
The article mentions Frederik twice: First, in the beginning, by noting that he, Mary, the children, QMII and Henrik, indeed, were present at the photo opportunity. Secondly, near the end, by pointing out how Joachim acts as regent whenever both QMII and Frederik are out of the country. While I'm not usually one to spring to BT's defence, nowhere in the article did they make "a clear point of praising Fred for never missing the photos". Which would be a stupid thing to do – IIRC he and Mary missed out on the photo opportunity in 2008 and received plenty of flack for it as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
If this graph is counting engagements, one event per day during official visits etc, then it's not really very accurate:

F&M visit to Saudi Arabia, 5 days counted as 5 engagements per person, when they really had 23 engagements on the agenda.

Women Deliver conference, 4 days = 4 engagements for Mary, but on the official agenda she had 27 events during those days.

And the same for QM on Dannebrog, F&M during State Visits and so on.
While I agree that it doesn't give a fair representation of QMII, Mary and Frederik's workload, I would also argue that counting several engagements per day wouldn't change Joachim's score much
__________________
"I am Denmark's first female Prime Minister. But you know what? I won't be the last."
— Helle Thorning-Schmidt, former Prime Minister of Denmark

Reply With Quote
  #279  
Old 07-20-2016, 09:41 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 628
The report does make me wonder how Joachim spends his days, especially if it's true his part time job is more an honorary thing instead of actual work. He doesn't have the country estate/farm to run anymore. His children are getting older and I can hardly see Joachim being their full time caregiver, anyway. The royal engagements he does don't seem to be the sort to require extensive behind the scenes prep. Presumably most of his friends, even the wealthy ones, have some sort of employment or estate management or something that keeps them busy.

A man in his 40s or 50s should have some sort of regular work, IMO, even if he's independently wealthy.
Reply With Quote
  #280  
Old 07-21-2016, 04:44 AM
iceflower's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: , Germany
Posts: 32,775
.

Posts about the family's holidays have been moved to the following thread:


** Prince Joachim and Family Summer Holidays: 2012-2016 **
__________________

__________________
**** Welcome aboard! ****
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
prince joachim, prince joachim and princess marie, prince joachim general news, princess marie, princess marie general news


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
General News about Frederik, Mary and Family Part 13: July 2014 - September 2015 iceflower Current Events Archive 396 09-01-2015 05:48 PM
General News about Joachim, Marie and Family 3: January 2011 - July 2014 dazzling Current Events Archive 433 07-17-2014 03:12 AM
General News about Frederik, Mary and Family 12: August 2013 - July 2014 dazzling Current Events Archive 601 07-17-2014 03:04 AM
General News about Joachim, Marie and Family 2: August 2009 - January 2011 dazzling Current Events Archive 401 01-08-2011 01:25 AM
General News about Joachim, Marie and Family 1: December 2007 - August 2009 isabelle 53 Current Events Archive 399 08-17-2009 04:08 PM




Popular Tags
ascot 2016 best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit camillas outfits catherine middleton style coup d'etat courtship crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit current events december 2015 duchess of cambridge dutch state visit e-mail fashion poll grand duke jean greece haldane kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats princess victoria fashion queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania royal fashion september 2016 state visit state visit from mexico state visit to denmark succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:10 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises