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  #81  
Old 02-07-2012, 10:04 AM
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I guess it all depends on what work the Danish people and state want the Crown Princely couple to do. Do they want their royals to become involved with international NGOs and world economic forums or do they want to restrict their patronages to domestic charitable/ cultural organizations for which they would undertake engagements at home and then also undertake official visits abroad as requested by the government. Was it not semi controoversial when Frederik joined the IOC? Each nation takes a different approach to the work they want their royals to do and the types of organizations their royals can be involved with.
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  #82  
Old 02-07-2012, 11:06 AM
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Yes, Frederik joined IOC (he really wanted it) but now we found out that he's not working enough with this organization. So why he's trying so far to be a member (and caused a controversy) if now he doesn't have time to attend a meetings?
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  #83  
Old 02-07-2012, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by nwinther View Post
Sure, then they go on a lot of holidays - or travel a lot is perhaps a better description. But even then they aren't cut very much slack.
Do they have lots of holidays?! They have their summer holiday, one week in the autumn when the kids have their holiday. (Not this year) One week for skiing etc.
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  #84  
Old 02-07-2012, 11:45 AM
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Here is the documentation DR1 will be using in the documentary tonight: http://www.dr.dk/NR/rdonlyres/893D70...deltagelse.pdf

It's based on the DRF's official calendar for 2010-2011.
And as far as I can tell from glancing down the pages is thatadminitsrative work and meeting and preparations are not included.
However periods where Frederik was Regent are included as work, - even though he may not have been out on public duties during those days.

Kronprinsen har 100 arbejdsdage færre end danske arbejdere - Politiken.dk
Historian Jes Fabricius Møller explains in this article from Politiken that you cannot compare Frederik with an ordinary employee or manager. Partly because he is royal, but also because he is bsically on hold to start his real job. I.e. being king.
"You cannot call the tasks of the Crown Prince for work and you cannot call his apanage salary, because in that way you try to convert the use and function of the DRF into a cost benefit calculation, and you cannot do that".
Frederik basically has one task:
"He is waiting to become king. While he is waiting he can fill out the time with charity and work/tasks of general use (to the society), but it's not something you can compare to working for a salary.
The Royal Family is very dependant on the public backing and there is no doubt that the Danes value hard work very much.
The DRF has to be aware of that".

Historian Lars Hovbakke Sørensen says: "As soon as he steps outside the mansion, he is in principle at work. Even though they may seem to have a cosy time and live a luxurious life, it is in reality an extremely demanding line of work, because they are constantly being scrutinized".
It seems to me that the debate on how much work the Crown Prince Couple actually does is in itself part of the problem they must face in justifying their existence beyond the ''waiting'' that Muhler notes here. Indeed, comparisons with other Crown Princes are difficult, because each has individual circumstances and interests. The British Crown Prince is famously a successful entrepreneur to support his many charities. The Norwegian couple appear at Davos to talk about global leadership... the list continues. Perhaps the Danish crown prince has need of one issue that he can concentrate on that will ''brand'' him as the prince who does whatever that choice might be; yet no doubt such a choice will prove controversial as other issues may be just as needy of his attention. In other words, royals never win, whatever they do. As Prince Charles once famously said, I could just go skiing and be done with it! I do hope Muhler will tell us about the documentary, and perhaps we outside Denmark might even be able to see it!
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  #85  
Old 02-07-2012, 11:50 AM
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T4Phage, what would you like him to do then? In contrast to England, Canada etc where a lot of support of the disadvantaged depends on private charities to raise money and where a member of the Royal family can lend his/hers support, is not relevant in Denmark in the same way, due to the fact that this is provided for by the government. Should he return to active duty in the Danish military? I'm not trying to provoke you, just want to hear yor opinon.
I would like him to do more than simply showing up to a sporting match, watching it, perhaps handing out an award or posing with the players and then calling it work. You can defend this any way you want, but it is not work. It is a hobby sold as work. I am not saying he can't do these sorts of events at all, but there should be work of more substance in between.

Personally, I would like to see him do more events like the Crown Princess does. And of course, some of you will say but if he does that, then what is left for the Crown Princess? Well, the rest of the royals manage. There is a lot more Frederik can do than sell off his hobby in sports as work.

He does good work when he represents Denmark abroad and in my opinion, he should be doing more events like that both in Denmark and abroad. The Norwegian CP couple have an area they like to focus on and are passionate about it. Frederik is passionate about sport....and yet the IOC and DIF say that Frederik barely shows up to meetings and the DIF themselves stated they expected more. Isn't this something he wanted so very much? So why isn't he doing the required work? No one is asking him to go all out, but at least do the required amount of work to show he IS doing something.

I know that not everyone will agree with my point of view, but it is my point of view and I felt that I am able to voice since this is the topic at hand.

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Originally Posted by agami.pearl View Post
Compared to Mary, 'just' a consort, mother of four, Frederic looks really bad, for me he's not working enough. Soon he'll be a king and should take his role more seriously. Time to end light sport events, vacations, visits without any major goal. In comparison to Haakon, W-A or Felipe he seems to be rather 'work shy'. Victoria is still working even being close to give birth. His counterparts are attending worldwide events, economic missions, are watching how other organizations work (Guillaumne in Brussels). And still have time to rest and enjoy family lives. Hes' getting lot of money from state and enjoys new cars, luxury vacations. Maybe it's how DRF functions, but I don't believe that he won't work more. Yes, preparations to engagements need time, but he had staff to help him, he's not doing everything alone.
It' s just my opinion, rather unpopular at this forum.
Thank you! This is what I have been saying for so long! But this point of view is always met with "you can't compare the DRF with other RF's". Right....So is there something different about the DRF that prevents their CP from taking on similar worldwide events and great causes as his other counterparts have?
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  #86  
Old 02-07-2012, 02:32 PM
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I think the obvious points of comparison to Frederik would not be royals in other countries, but rather Queen Margrethe and, especially, Crown Princess Mary. IMO, at this stage in their lives, Frederik shouldn't be doing significantly less work than his mother. Yes, he's in a holding pattern waiting for his "real job" of King to start, but surely it would be better to ramp up to the duties of a monarch over time than to have to go from zero to sixty immediately on the death of his mother. In all fairness, Frederik does seem to be doing this, albeit more slowly than some would evidently prefer.

The most valid comparison to make, IMO, is to Mary. Mary may be just the consort but for all practical intents and purposes she and Frederik are in the same situation. They represent the same country, they're around the same age, they're working from the same overall financial pool and, obviously, have the same family day to day issues with the children, etc. Does Mary do more events than Frederik? Because to me that would be hard to defend, especially given the fact that Mary's been pregnant or post partum for a significant portion of time since she got married. If I had to guess I'd say Mary is in fact busier than Frederik, but I don't know if the numbers bear this out.
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  #87  
Old 02-07-2012, 02:52 PM
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Okay, the segment about Frederik has just ended.

The DR1 programme Detektor, deal with various claims in the public debate recently and then double-check and veryfy these claims. - Often to the very considerable embarrassment of various columnists, editors and journalists.

This was basically a response to a debate started by another DR1 journalist named Koplev. (I wrote a summary about that about a month or so ago). In there he claimed that Frederik really only work for 40 days a year. (A claim initially started by the republican tabloid Ekstra Bladet).

The jounalists at Detektor went to the court and were handed out Frederik's official calendars for 2010 and 2011.
They counted the number of events he took part in, in Denmark and abroad, and those two figures. Then they added the days where he was Regent. And reached the figures 136 and 140 days respectively.

Detektor did not go into details about what is considered genuine work, what can best be described as a hobby and what is a mix of work and pleasure. - That is simply another debate.
Nor could they answer how much time Frederik is using on administrative work, briefings, writing speeches, preparations and so on.

They wanted to question Koplev about his claims, but he declined with the words: "You may be right. - So what"? 136 and 140 days of (official) work did not impress Koplev.

-------------

In short: Not much new, except that the 40 days claimed by Koplev, by any standard is a laughable claim. - Personally I don't care about Koplev and whatever agenda he may have, if he as a journalist can't do his work proberly, he is of no significanse.

So, it's basically down to how much each of us think is appropriate.
Well, I fully expect to see Frederik take on considerable more tasks in the next few years, as his mother is getting older and de facto retire. (Something she has earned). Frederik is in his prime, he is well prepared and he has (I believe) had the children he will have, it's time to start shifting from focusing primarily on his small children, which is very understandable, to focus more on his role as the day-to-day regent.

I also hope he will spread his field of interest more. His work abroad is fine, I have no problem with that.
It would however be a good idea, not least for Frederik's image, if he took on a wider field of interest. Sport and health is fine, but the danger is that sport is not really considered serious work. It can be compared to the initial critisism of Mary, on only being interested in fashion (which is big business by the way). He has expressed an interest for the environment. Good, let him focus more on that, let him focus more on alternative energy (there is big money in that too), on conservation.
There are plenty of opportunities, grab them.

DK is a country of 5.4 million. Covered by six adult members of the DRF (not counting Benedikte) it's a balancing act.
If the DRF is here, there and everywhere all the time, the novelty, the mystique and the news worthyness will deminish.
That doesn't mean that Frederik can't and shouldn't be seen being committed in something, like the environment. He doesn't have to say anything or do much, just showing interest and being present would help a lot, I think.
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  #88  
Old 02-07-2012, 03:09 PM
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I think what Frederik is missing is "business profile". What do we know about him? He loves Mary, his children and sports? Well, for the average person this is the description of "private" person. We want him to be involved in business or at least social matters which seems to lack.

There is one thing I don't understand: The discussion of the Crown Prince Frederik not working enough is an everlasting one and I am sure the Royal House is aware of this. But so far the Royal Family doesn't seem to even try to change the public picture of Frederic. Is it because they think the Crown Prince does enough or because they don't care or because they may have not realised it? I for my opinion think that Frederic doesn't seem to care much. I think he is quite good looking - though my everlasting favorite will be Hakoon :-) ) but good looks alone does not take you to save harbour. You have to know how to paddle as well :-)
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  #89  
Old 02-07-2012, 03:10 PM
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I think what Frederik should or should not be doing is a debate best left to the Danes.
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  #90  
Old 02-07-2012, 03:35 PM
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Well this is a royal forum covering the entire world. What is next: you and I as Canadian citizens should stick to Queen Elizabeth II and not talk/write too much about it because she's also queen of England and lives there and not here? NO, Danes might be interested to known that people outside their country find their Crown Prince kinda cute, kinda fun-loving but kinda light on the work side and that we wonder what moves him, what are his goals and values as they most probably would reflect on the ones of his people.
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  #91  
Old 02-07-2012, 03:43 PM
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Well this is a royal forum covering the entire world. What is next: you and I as Canadian citizens should stick to Queen Elizabeth II and not talk/write too much about it because she's also queen of England and lives there and not here? NO, Danes might be interested to known that people outside their country find their Crown Prince kinda cute, kinda fun-loving but kinda light on the work side and that we wonder what moves him, what are his goals and values as they most probably would reflect on the ones of his people.
I agree. I understand the statement that the Danes are paying for their royal family and that they should decide. So far no objection. What I don't understand is that the Danish people also pay for their royals to represent them outside of Denmark. So they are paying them their expensive trips, their gala outfits and whatsoever and expect them to be a trademark for Denmark. So listening to others might actually be helpful...
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  #92  
Old 02-07-2012, 03:56 PM
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I agree. I understand the statement that the Danes are paying for their royal family and that they should decide. So far no objection. What I don't understand is that the Danish people also pay for their royals to represent them outside of Denmark. So they are paying them their expensive trips, their gala outfits and whatsoever and expect them to be a trademark for Denmark. So listening to others might actually be helpful...
Perhaps but no one seems to be criticizing the work he does as part of Trademark Denmark when on official visits abroad, either accompanying his parents or as part of economic visits. The criticism seems to be about the work he does domestically, and really only the Danes would really know what organizations are acceptable for the heir to their Danish throne to be involved with and judge the number of engagements he should be undertaking each year. Denmark is a very small country, with 6 working royals to cover the nation, so it seems unrealistic to expect they would undertake an especially heavy number of engagements each year, like a senior member of the BRF for example.
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  #93  
Old 02-07-2012, 04:00 PM
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But it's quite appropriate to expect that they will work as hard as royals in Belgium, Netherlands, Spain or Norway.
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  #94  
Old 02-07-2012, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by agami.pearl View Post
But it's quite appropriate to expect that they will work as hard as royals in Belgium, Netherlands, Spain or Norway.
And how many engagements do those heirs undertake each year, especially in Norway since it has a comparable population?
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  #95  
Old 02-07-2012, 04:12 PM
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Compared to Frederik much more, I never counted it. But important is not only the quantity but also quality. More official visits, meetings with heads of states, supporting the business cases. There is more things in the world than sport.
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  #96  
Old 02-07-2012, 04:18 PM
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Perhaps but no one seems to be criticizing the work he does as part of Trademark Denmark when on official visits abroad, either accompanying his parents or as part of economic visits. The criticism seems to be about the work he does domestically, and really only the Danes would really know what organizations are acceptable for the heir to their Danish throne to be involved with and judge the number of engagements he should be undertaking each year. Denmark is a very small country, with 6 working royals to cover the nation, so it seems unrealistic to expect they would undertake an especially heavy number of engagements each year, like a senior member of the BRF for example.
I very much understand your point and I agree to it. But even working domestically they are still being observed from people living out of Denmark - so in a way they are still trademarking their country. Maybe there are some people who think "what do I care what others think of me?" but please remember: we live in a globalized world with lots of inter-connections and inter-relations between countries corporating with each other. So it is important in these times to give a good impression when you want to do business with others. My apologies, maybe I am too business-orientated here, but I think that this is also one of the duties of the Royal Family - to help business and the industry flourishing in the country.

Maybe I haven't been able to express myself properly (please mind my weak English) - for me it is not the load of their work but more the choice of work that seems to harm their reputation, and especially of that of the Crown Prince. I personally like this family - a "Bilderbuchfamilie" as we would say in German which might equal to "a perfect picture made family" but there is something that especially Frederik lacks and this is his working attitude.
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:24 PM
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Compared to Frederik much more, I never counted it. But important is not only the quantity but also quality. More official visits, meetings with heads of states, supporting the business cases. There is more things in the world than sport.
If there hasn't been a count how can you say with such certainty that Haakon for example does so much more?

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I very much understand your point and I agree to it. But even working domestically they are still being observed from people living out of Denmark - so in a way they are still trademarking their country. Maybe there are some people who think "what do I care what others think of me?" but please remember: we live in a globalized world with lots of inter-connections and inter-relations between countries corporating with each other. So it is important in these times to give a good impression when you want to do business with others. My apologies, maybe I am too business-orientated here, but I think that this is also one of the duties of the Royal Family - to help business and the industry flourishing in the country.

Maybe I haven't been able to express myself properly (please mind my weak English) - for me it is not the load of their work but more the choice of work that seems to harm their reputation, and especially of that of the Crown Prince. I personally like this family - a "Bilderbuchfamilie" as we would say in German which might equal to "a perfect picture made family" but there is something that especially Frederik lacks and this is his working attitude.
I understand the points you are making and to an extent agree with you, but what organizations in Denmark should he be involved with that do not already have a royal patron and also that the government would allow the heir to be actively involved with while keeping him away from politics?
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:57 PM
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I understand the points you are making and to an extent agree with you, but what organizations in Denmark should he be involved with that do not already have a royal patron and also that the government would allow the heir to be actively involved with while keeping him away from politics?
Maybe this is the burden Royals especially in democracies have to carry for all their lives: that they should represent but not get too involved and not too influential. That they should be powerful even though they do not really have power or are strong decision makers. Danger is that the one or other royal feels trapped with no way out of the situation - maybe this is the case with Frederik. He maybe has given himself up. I do not know. It is a thin line for Royals and they have to be careful not to get bored of their own responsibilities.

Truth is that in a modern democarcy with capitalistic values there is no space for a family paid by the people for the only reason to "exist". In these terms I think why do modern countries so much stick to their royals? What are the benefit of them for liberal republic countries for example? Maybe one profound reason is to keep the magic/the myth of history alive? Yes. But also making money out of this and out of their royal family. Keeping the attractiveness for investors. This myth has to pay off domestically and beyond the borders as well. To put it in somehow drastic words: investors want to be photographed with strong people and for this they are willing to pay. But they are less interested to be pictured with people known for being lazy or reluctant to work. The one or other still want a picture with such a person but he for sure will not take him serious.
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Old 02-07-2012, 05:36 PM
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If there hasn't been a count how can you say with such certainty that Haakon for example does so much more?
CP Haakon did 179 engagements last year.
Kong harald - Kongen knuser Mette-Marit - Seher.no Kongelige
Google Translation
(Hope this is not too off topic.)
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Old 02-07-2012, 05:44 PM
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And probably ones with a lot more substance.
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