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  #941  
Old 06-05-2006, 05:40 PM
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I wonder how people in general can get so strong views from other people they actually dont know. That happens to be in both sides of the rope, there are people who are the biggest fans of a royal or an famous person, having in their mind a surreal view of this person, for me it is surreal as you can see it is impossible to be so perfect as it is being draw by them. It is the same for the ones that see everything they do is wrong, made for bad reasons etc.
People are not perfect, royals are people so they are not perfect. They have advisers so they probably get better giving them enough time, it just happens. We can see what is happening to Albert of Monaco, what happened with Charles and Diana, with the luxemburg's prince, all of them born royals and that didnt stop them from acting as other human beings, you can imagine it cant be so easy for one commoner converted to royal by marriage. They do their best but they are pushed to prove themselves as worthy for the job and that is really a big pressure, when you have all the cameras checking your minimal steps. So i hope people let them a chance, let them grow into their positions and you will see that many of them are more capable than many born royals.
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  #942  
Old 06-05-2006, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grevinnan
Denmark unconditionally love their Queen but will perhaps not have the same feeling for King Fred. Mary needs to find a way to connect with the Danes.
But this is where your post does'nt make sense, to me, because the Danes do love their Crown Prince and Mary has connected wth the population! I dont know why people continue to make these comments that are neither proven or justified. And what's even more amusing is that those who dont think highly of Mary & make these observations, are'nt even Danish.

"MII"
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  #943  
Old 06-05-2006, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royaltywatcher
So her detractors try hard to be heard, and to back up their complaints with facts. And her supporters deny the validity of the facts, enclosing the word "facts" in quotes to further their point.
That's certainly not the case..I provide evidence If I have made a comment. Many who think ill of the woman never provide evidence no matter how many times they are asked to do so, and why? Because they have not a leg to fall back on!

"MII"
  #944  
Old 06-05-2006, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royaltywatcher
The problem with Mary is simple. She doesn't have universal appeal. Some like her, some don't. Other princesses (Mathilde, Alexandra, etc.), seem to appeal to the majority of people.

So her detractors try hard to be heard, and to back up their complaints with facts. And her supporters deny the validity of the facts, enclosing the word "facts" in quotes to further their point. No one will win, because at the end of the day, half the people that know she exists (we are a small group, outside of Denmark and Australia) will like her, and half won't.
I think that's one of the most accurate assessments in this entire thread.
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  #945  
Old 06-05-2006, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UserDane
It's fair enough that we don't agree whether we like a person or not Aussie Princess (I agree with your opinion on Mona Lisa though ).
I admit that I defend Mary when I see the need for it. Not that she cannot take care of herself, because she surely can. I just don't understand the Internet 'culture' that has spread which dictate that whatever Mary does is open to constant critisim - by the same people e.g. Alexandra is always treated with velvet gloves. It's strange really. I have experienced both ladies' arrival to Denmark and like them both but for some reason Alexandra just seem to be doing it right whichever way she does things - according to the Internet opinion. She used 4 years to get settled here before having children (she said so herself), Mary had a child after a year and half, was extremely quick at taking events on her own etc. For the life of me I cannot understand why she cannot be given some slack - or some credit - for trying to do her duties (of which giving birth to the next heir must be considered one) as quickly as she has.

I don't believe that Mary can walk on water - I even suspect that she uses a bathroom like the rest of us. But I don't understand why so many people outside Denmark think that whatever Mary does, it's just wrong, the wrong time, the wrong attitude, the wrong reasons for doing it. Whereas Alexandra seems to be a virtual angel when she does anything. Beats me...
WOW.......Great Post! UserDane........I am 100% in agreement!!:)

Amen
  #946  
Old 06-05-2006, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royaltywatcher
The problem with Mary is simple. She doesn't have universal appeal. Some like her, some don't. Other princesses (Mathilde, Alexandra, etc.), seem to appeal to the majority of people.

So her detractors try hard to be heard, and to back up their complaints with facts. And her supporters deny the validity of the facts, enclosing the word "facts" in quotes to further their point. No one will win, because at the end of the day, half the people that know she exists (we are a small group, outside of Denmark and Australia) will like her, and half won't.
Great post! well said! :)

Really, it's the flipside of the same coin.
  #947  
Old 06-05-2006, 09:23 PM
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Its amazing to see that all the people who have a negative opinion of Mary, even bother themselves to take the time to post about it constantly. If you don't like her, don't worry yourselves. It dosen't make any sense to me.
  #948  
Old 06-05-2006, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UserDane
But I don't understand why so many people outside Denmark think that whatever Mary does, it's just wrong, the wrong time, the wrong attitude, the wrong reasons for doing it.
Trying to play devil's advocate: I think part of the problem is explained right in your comment: The impression I'm given is that in Denmark and Australia Mary is loved 100% by the Danes who have proudly welcomed her to their country and by Australians who are proud that their home-born girl will be queen one day.

I know that the Danish monarchy is very popular, that Queen Margrethe is a much loved and admired monarch, and that Frederik is consistently voted year after year as being one of the most popular people in Denmark, but that popularity doesn't necessarily automatically extend to Mary by association. And such unabashed popularity (about anyone, not specifically Mary) leaves people, certainly me, skeptical. I would believe that the majority of the Danes and Australians love and are proud of Mary, but there is likely even a small population who don't care or don't like her. That is not the impression I read here and at other places on the internet however, which is that Mary is unequivocally loved.

I have read some posts here by Australian members who have said that some people absolutely adore Mary and buy every magazine of her, others care a little bit like when major things happen in her life such as coming back to Australia for a visit, the announcement of her pregnancy and the birth and baptism of Christian, others don't care at all, others are indifferent, and others haven't a clue who Mary is in the least. To me that seems like the most accurate assessment. In Denmark I'm sure everyone has heard of and is aware of who Mary is, but that the adoration for level is comparable: Some people adore Mary, some people care/pay attention when something major happens, some don't care one way or another, while others don't care at all.

It seems to me that the people who like Mary a lot (which I don't have a problem with) seem to be trying too hard to convince others who are indifferent to her or don't like her at all. There seems to be a level of zealousness that isn't present with Alexandra or Mathilde fans. If I post in the Belgian forum that I don't particularly like the outfit Mathilde is wearing one day, I won't be bombarded with a dozen posts about how I don't know anything about fashion or with a dozen posts about how fabulous Mathilde looks and how fashionable she is and how others want an outfit just like hers.

It seems to me that there is no middle ground between those who like Mary and those who don't. Any critical post about Mary is inevitably followed by 10 posts that praise her, and from my observation, those who don't like Mary very much already are pushed further to dislike her because of those who do like her and defend her.

The impression that is given by her fans is that she is loved 100% by the world over (she's the next Diana fashion icon people say!) and is absolutely perfect (she can walk on water! ) whereas with certain other princesses there is some allowance that they aren't perfect and do make mistakes.

She is not universally known (which is fine, as I don't think anyone in my city would know who Mathilde or Alexandra are either), she isn't perfect, she isn't an international fashion icon and I think that's fine. I think that trying to imply and force to others that she is all these things to others is where the divide between Mary fans and non-Mary fans increases. In most of the princesses people obviously have their favourites but can accept criticism of her or admit that one outfit isn't particularly great on her.
  #949  
Old 06-05-2006, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missjane
Its amazing to see that all the people who have a negative opinion of Mary, even bother themselves to take the time to post about it constantly. If you don't like her, don't worry yourselves. It dosen't make any sense to me.
I think these kind of comments also increase the divide. If members can post that they think Mary looks beautiful or is wonderful, then there is also room here for members to (respectfully) say that they don't like the outfit Mary has worn today or that they don't like something she did.

I do think it's unhelpful when members post that they dislike Mary "just because" but I think that when there are reasons behind it, even reasons that might seem flimsy to others, so long as there is something after the "because" we should accept it and not try to negate it. If someone posts that they dislike the outfit Mary has worn today because the colour washes her out, to me that is as valid a reason as someone who says that Mary looks great today because the outfit she has worn brings out the colour of her eyes.

There is space for both sides of the Mary divide, and I don't think it's fair to say that if members don't like Mary they just shouldn't bother to post. Most of us visiting this forum live in countries where freedom of speech is a much valued and cherished right, and that includes the freedom and right to say things that aren't always positive and even critical of our public figures.

I recently heard a great quote, the source of whom escapes me now, but I think it's a good point: Freedom of equality isn't the right for all of us to be equal, but the equal right for all of us to be different. So here everybody has an equal right to share their views, so long as they are expressed respectfully on both sides.
  #950  
Old 06-05-2006, 09:45 PM
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Nice posts, Alexandria.

From one Canuck to Another.
  #951  
Old 06-05-2006, 10:04 PM
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I agree with Alexandria, regarding post 948

However...

Its not the personal opinion I take issue with, its the lack of tact in this thread shown by those who are'nt fond of Mary when putting their arguments forth. If you dont like her,that's fine but and by all means continue to contribute to discussion. There are , however, better ways of expressisng your opinion than totally trying to run the woman into the ground :)

Do I think Mary is perfect?.lol. Not at all..anyone who believes that that is so is very misguided or just does'nt like reality.

As for the other Crown Princesses, none of them have universal appeal I find. But, then again, they dont have to I guess.

I do however find it very perculiar that someone would chose not to like the Crown Princess even more than before because there are people who think highly of her and express those views, even if sometimes done in a blunt manner. To me, that's quite bizarre & I dont see the need to associate Mary with someone who supports her, that's quite a naive stance to take.

I recently saw a post by Mandy, stating that here at the forums, we like working with factual information... yet half the material brought up in this thread isn't factual, its nothing more than hearsay (this is discluding personal opinion) and thats' the truth of it. And again, when we ask for evidence to support a claim, its never provided.

I have never attempted, nor shall I to sway someone's opinion...I have not the slightest bit of interest in doing so and many of you may find me extremely annoying (an understatement no doubt and that's fine ) but, as a contributing member to the Royal Forums, I dont appreciate the circulation of false & sometimes malicious information. And if you check back through this thread, you shall see that quite often than not that's all that's being stated and used in arguments against Mary which in my mind, is a very poor case for a very poor argument.

Again, personal opnion (unless based on other's experiences) is great and encouraged, but so is material backed by evidence to support the claims.

"MII"
  #952  
Old 06-05-2006, 10:39 PM
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Alexandria, I agree with freedom of speech, I think you have taken it too personally. I was saying from my perspective, that if I don't like or agree with something then I don't seek it out and let it become an issue for me. Some of these posts become more than an opinion or criticism, they can be quite an attack. I am amazed that there is 48 pages of peoples "opinions", quite often by the same offenders. And as proven, users turn on each others posts because they have run out of things to discuss. If freedom of speech is important to you, then why attack my opinion about what I think? Am I not able to use my right to freedom of speech as you have?
  #953  
Old 06-05-2006, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missjane
Alexandria, I agree with freedom of speech, I think you have taken it too personally. I was saying from my perspective, that if I don't like or agree with something then I don't seek it out and let it become an issue for me. Some of these posts become more than an opinion or criticism, they can be quite an attack. I am amazed that there is 48 pages of peoples "opinions", quite often by the same offenders. And as proven, users turn on each others posts because they have run out of things to discuss. If freedom of speech is important to you, then why attack my opinion about what I think? Am I not able to use my right to freedom of speech as you have?
missjane, I don't feel I've attacked you or your opinon, but if you felt that way, I'm sorry.

I was simply trying to say that this is a space for both sides of the Mary divide. And while I think it's fine for you to decide to not to post something if you don't agree with it or to let it get to you, similar to the "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" philosophy. But that's not everybody's mandate. And I think one of the reasons forums of all topics and subjects are popular is because people are able to air their views and opinons. I certainly can say that I've read some good points in this thread whether I agree with them personally or not, and that I've certainly learned some things and gotten a different perspective. Ultimately it's up to everyone to decide what to take away from this for themselves, but it's not fair to say let's not discuss this at all or to to negate the feelings in this thread by saying "opinons" as if they aren't really how people feel or perceive the situation. I believe that the opinons are true for the individuals who wrote them and we shouldn't negate them just because we don't like them or can't understand them.
  #954  
Old 06-05-2006, 11:02 PM
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Quote from Alexandria:
(Sorry I don't know how to make the quotes come up in the grey boxes.)

"It seems to me that the people who like Mary a lot (which I don't have a problem with) seem to be trying too hard to convince others who are indifferent to her or don't like her at all. There seems to be a level of zealousness that isn't present with Alexandra or Mathilde fans. "

I agree. This is why this thread is so long. It's not really so much about Mary as it is about us trying to best each other.
  #955  
Old 06-05-2006, 11:17 PM
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Kids...let's play nice :)

Seriously though. I think several members hit the nail on the head when they stated that either you like Mary or you don't. And everyone, of course, is entitled to their opinion. While I like Mary, I wouldn't consider myself a Mary addict. Looking at the older threads it appears that some people have disliked her from the beginning and quite honestly I don't see that changing anytime soon. They range from a variety of reasons: moving to Denmark to date her boyfriend-although as a Prince of Denmark did they expect him to move to date her?; the Vogue article-which many consider a mistake, I haven't read it so I wont comment. Although I will say, maybe its time to move on...its not like she committed adultery, hit a child or did something totally horrific. Some say she is snobbish, but I don't recall anyone saying that they have met her. My issues regarding all the comments is this, and I think I speak for many on the board. If you have something negative to say...back it up. Use a credible source. Don't say a friend of a friend said the following....that is the most frustrating piece..not that you are stating your dislike for Mary but you are making negative statements without proof.

On another note...does anyone find it odd that out of all the Crown Princesses...the only one (at least from what I can see) that hasn't caused this much negative discussion is Mathilde. I wonder why?
  #956  
Old 06-06-2006, 12:00 AM
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With all the news on the Monaco thread I forgot on the threads for other royals. I agree on Mary's image, you either like her or not as Zonk said. But I think she is still a work in progress and that could be the reason why people change their views on her with time.
  #957  
Old 06-06-2006, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk1189
...On another note...does anyone find it odd that out of all the Crown Princesses...the only one (at least from what I can see) that hasn't caused this much negative discussion is Mathilde. I wonder why?
Mary, Letizia and Maxima are works in progress and maybe Mathilde is the finished product?
  #958  
Old 06-06-2006, 12:12 AM
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Exactly, in my opinion, I think that there wouldn't be much of a divide if people had credible facts to support their reasons. That is the frustrating thing, is that some people make airy-fairy comments that is not supported. Sometimes, people would just like to know how someone came to a certain opinion or conclusion. And when asked to provide the evidence or source- most times the person does not provide it. Why? Because there is no courage in their convictions!

Just my little bit :)
  #959  
Old 06-06-2006, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UserDane

Yes, mostly she does. There will always be Ekstra Bladet and Se&H°r which will happily badmouth any member of the royal family but that is to be expected from them (on the other hand, if e.g. Mary or Alexandra makes a favourable impression abroad e.g. they will be the first to rave about 'our' Mary and 'our' Alexandra!)
Mary has taken on quite a number of patronages and I think the general impression is that she is a very capable person around people, children in particular. QMII was never quite that, always a bit akward.
Thanks Userdane ... I hadn't heard of Ekstra Bladet until I saw your response and when I googled it I found an article about Mary ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by theaustralian.news.com.au
...The princess has also been criticised for overspending. Danish newspaper Ekstra Bladet says she's addicted to retail therapy and may have spent as much as $60,000 on clothes last year ...
Here's the link for those interested in the rest of the story http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-25090,00.html
  #960  
Old 06-06-2006, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandria
The impression that is given by her fans is that she is loved 100% by the world over (she's the next Diana fashion icon people say!) and is absolutely perfect (she can walk on water! ) whereas with certain other princesses there is some allowance that they aren't perfect and do make mistakes.
Alexandria, thanks for your interesting post.
I suppose that you would count me among Mary's 'fans' even though I must admit that I do not see myself as a fan of any royal (well, perhaps Daisy... ). I do not see Mary's 'fans' as people who want to give the impression that Mary is loved globally. For me personally - and I suspect that it goes for others too - my reasons for jumping to her defence is that I find that she is given an unusually harsh treatment sometimes. If she's wearing a well-chosen suit, she's often accused of wanting to be a fashion icon, if she looks into the camera many find her attention-seeking, if she doesn't, she's rude. Mathilde wouldn't be considered rude if she didn't look into a camera - or attention-seeking if she did. Why is Mary? It is things like that which annoys me.

I cannot help making comparisons with the way Alexandra was treated during her first years here. IMO she was given much more 'space' than Mary is to make mistakes, gain some experience, etc. Also, I think the adoration level for Alexandra was much more hyped, she being the first princess for many years. Sure, there is some hype surrounding Mary - she's only been married for two years, there was the wedding and the birth, but it will find a natural level and I think it is beginning to do so.

I do not find that Danes in general are hyped about Mary; like most other countries I suspect, the majority considers royalty something we've always have had. We still want it - but the majority don't spend a lot of time and resources on discussing it; in that respect for example Billed-Bladet is IMO not representative of the general interest level in our royals. I actually do think that there are people who live happily without having formed a firm opinion about Mary either way. I know people who thinks she 'looks nice', 'seems to be doing all-right' - and then not much more. She's just part of 'them', the royals.

Personally, I will be satisfied the day Mary can walk off a plane looking like s*** and wearing some good awful trousers - and not being grilled for it on the internet.
I'm all for equality among the crown princesses!
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