Mary's Accent and Languages

[Viv]

Both QMII and PH have, before this book got published, told about that they were speaking french between the two of them. So it wasn´t that big a surprise

Both QMII and PH have, before this book got published, told about that they were speaking french between the two of them. So it wasn´t that big a surprise

I know FasterB, I remember now that you remind me ! But when reading Surrugue it really struck me how little attention Prince Henrik actually paid on learning Danish at the time by his own admission, because somehow HM failed to see the importance of doing so!.
For crying out loud: HM's mother Queen Ingrid knew how important it was to learn the languague of one's adopted country, but those educational skills were not inherited by her oldest daugther. HM has admitted to her impatience on several occasions, but honestly - in hindsight I find it surprising that noone tried to give PH a gentle push in the right direction!

Viv

 

[camelot23ca]

HM has admitted to her impatience on several occasions, but honestly - in hindsight I find it surprising that noone tried to give PH a gentle push in the right direction!

Henrik seems stubborn, which I imagine can be a blessing or a curse, depending on the situation. If he decided, for whatever reason, that he wasn't going to make quickly learning Danish a priority then I don't see what anyone could do. Courtiers can insist that something is important all they want but at the end of the day they work for the royal family, not the other way around. Margrethe may have tried to encourage him but really, they got married, started having children, she became queen fairly quickly - with all those other things demanding her attention she may have decided, (wisely, IMO), to pick her battles.

 

[Madame Royale]

Interesting discussion today with a friend of mine who happens to be a professor of linguistics.

We were discussing second languages and the dominance of the native tongue and how the elderly often revert back to the dominant language despite the fact they have spoken say, english as an example, for fifty odd years.

I mentioned Mary of Denmark and spoke of how Mary had learnt a second language rather late in life, being that she was in her late twenties/early thirties before she undertook the task.

Mary's dominant language will always be english, as we know, and although Mary says she thinks in Danish it is near impossible than an interntal translation isn't present before she articulates herslef in her adopted tongue.

My friend believes, in their professional capacity, that it's very likely in the expectant event that Mary should reach old age, and as her brain cells continue to break down (which happens to us all as we grow old), that her ability to continue speaking fluent Danish will decrease and that she will find herself reverting back to english when verbally communicating. The learnt secondary language never truly becomes that persons identified language but acts more as a blanket which over time frays. The later in life someone learns a language the more likely it is that they shall lose any achieved fluency.

It will be interesting to see how the Prince Consort is in say 10 years from now, should he still be among us (god willing).

 

[grevinnan]

Interesting discussion today with a friend of mine who happens to be a professor of linguistics.

We were discussing second languages and the dominance of the native tongue and how the elderly often revert back to the dominant language despite the fact they have spoken say, english as an example, for fifty odd years.

I mentioned Mary of Denmark and spoke of how Mary had learnt a second language rather late in life, being that she was in her late twenties/early thirties before she undertook the task.

Mary's dominant language will always be english, as we know, and although Mary says she thinks in Danish it is near impossible than an interntal translation isn't present before she articulates herslef in her adopted tongue.

My friend believes, in their professional capacity, that it's very likely in the expectant event that Mary should reach old age, and as her brain cells continue to break down (which happens to us all as we grow old), that her ability to continue speaking fluent Danish will decrease and that she will find herself reverting back to english when verbally communicating. The learnt secondary language never truly becomes that persons identified language but acts more as a blanket which over time frays. The later in life someone learns a language the more likely it is that they shall lose any achieved fluency.

It will be interesting to see how the Prince Consort is in say 10 years from now, should he still be among us (god willing).

It is more the onset and progression of dementia that may cause Mary or anyone that speaks a language other than their native tongue to loose the memory of a language. Simply getting old is not generally a reason to loose ones short term memory and thereby forgetting the language one speaks everyday.

 

[Madame Royale]

It is more the onset and progression of dementia that may cause Mary or anyone that speaks a language other than their native tongue to loose the memory of a language. Simply getting old is not generally a reason to loose ones short term memory and thereby forgetting the language one speaks everyday.

Not so. We are not talking of a serious loss (decomposition) of cognitive ability that exceeds the normal ageing process which is what Dementia is. Though certainly for those with the onsent and consequential progression of the disease, that would amplify the process.

This is about the brain no longer successfully translating what was learnt after the brain had stopped forming which is thought to be around 24 to 25 years of age. I perhaps didn't make that clear in my initial post.

This has been witnessed throughout many immigrant communities the world over whereby their mental health, despite the natural ageing process, remains alert and consistantly stimulated by ongoing communication with locals and the indaviduals environment in general. So functioning at it's regular capacity, thus being fundamentally viable.

It has here been especially witnessed that the brain can become less and less reciprocative of it's own attempts to successfully articulate the secondary language.

 

[Frelinghighness]

This is about the brain no longer successfully translating what was learnt after the brain had stopped forming which is thought to be around 24 to 25 years of age.

I had also been taught that the brain ceases to create new cells after age 25. However, in the past few years, many definitive studies are now able to document adult neurogenisis, as it is called.
Exercise is thought to be actually the number one factor for this, as well as learning something new, especially a language, for example.
But, I can certainly see your point that you have more brain cells when your brain is forming, of course, and a language learned "young" is more with you.
In fact, I have read that below 5 years old is optimal for learning languages.

And, I had a very good friend who fits your theory perfectly. She grew up in Brittany, France and learned the Gaelic type dialect as a child. Then, French of course, then English. When she was having a mild stroke, she spoke to us in the Gaelic in the ambulance, then, only in French after that.

 

[TLLK]

Interesting discussion today with a friend of mine who happens to be a professor of linguistics.

We were discussing second languages and the dominance of the native tongue and how the elderly often revert back to the dominant language despite the fact they have spoken say, english as an example, for fifty odd years.

I mentioned Mary of Denmark and spoke of how Mary had learnt a second language rather late in life, being that she was in her late twenties/early thirties before she undertook the task.

Mary's dominant language will always be english, as we know, and although Mary says she thinks in Danish it is near impossible than an interntal translation isn't present before she articulates herslef in her adopted tongue.

My friend believes, in their professional capacity, that it's very likely in the expectant event that Mary should reach old age, and as her brain cells continue to break down (which happens to us all as we grow old), that her ability to continue speaking fluent Danish will decrease and that she will find herself reverting back to english when verbally communicating. The learnt secondary language never truly becomes that persons identified language but acts more as a blanket which over time frays. The later in life someone learns a language the more likely it is that they shall lose any achieved fluency.

It will be interesting to see how the Prince Consort is in say 10 years from now, should he still be among us (god willing).

Thank you for sharing this topic. I did notice my late mother-in-law who spoke English for 40 plus years reverting to her native German toward the end of her life.

 

[COUNTESS]

You are all very smart. My mother, who was born in Russia and came here, Bless her, 90 years ago, at 6 years old, speaks, impeccable English and has no recollection of ever speaking any other language. A very dear friend, who came here from Norway, went to college here and has never left, has an accent.

 

[Madame Royale]

In fact, I have read that below 5 years old is optimal for learning languages.

That's what I've long been told myself. The brain whilst continuing to form at that very early age is the time when it is taking in as much as it can. It's absorbing so much information and it is at this time that the people we become in adult life and the languages, values and prejudices we grow to have and learn, are greatly influenced by the environments and people we have around us as young children. The likeliness that in old age, these languages are still fluently articulated is much greater than for someone who had learnt a language beyond 25 years because it was established in that indaviduals 'wiring' during that period.

Exercise is thought to be actually the number one factor for this, as well as learning something new, especially a language, for example.

Learning a language, at that stage of life, appears to be about keeping the mind as active as possible, making it focus, rather than actually trying to sustain an achieved level of fluency that is long term. A) Because of their age, B) the cells only continue to dissipate and C) it gives them something to do. Much like crosswords and puzzles, it set's a challenge.

 

[ortino]

Levi-Strauss did a lot of research on personal acquisition of language through his work in structural linguistics.

 

[Renata4711]

Thank you for this interesting polyglottal contribution.

Through family circumstances, I acquired/learnt several European languages. Through my work I had to learn several more, including Hebrew, Aramaic and Russian.

I'm now 61 and even more interested in languages than when I was a little girl of three or four.

What does that say?

 

[Madame Royale]

What does that say?

That they are of genuine interest to you, would probably sum it up.

 

[Grandduchess24]

I have not heard Mary speak Danish but I just wonder if she speaks it with a little bit of an aussie accent.

 

[nwinther]

I have not heard Mary speak Danish but I just wonder if she speaks it with a little bit of an aussie accent.

You can sometimes discern something aussie. But usually it's quite undefinable to pinpoint the accent. It's there, clearly - but seems "orphan".

IMO, she shares accent with Countess Alexandra (they shared the same teacher, which explains a lot). And Alexandra is from Hong Kong, speaking Oxford English - also undiscernable.

 

[kansasmama4]

Hello to all.

I'm new to royal watching and have to admit that I, like many Americans, don't know much about any royal family other than the British royal family. I actually became interested in the Danish royal family after watching the wedding of Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Mary on YouTube. In brief online research of CP Mary, I've noticed a bit of resentment and hostility toward her on other forums. Can anyone enlighten me as to why? From what I've read of her, she seems to be a fascinating and beautiful person. Why such bitterness from other online posters?

I look forward to being a part of this community and expanding my knowledge of royal families. Thanks for any insight, advice, and suggestions!

 

[Super Baroness]

In brief online research of CP Mary, I've noticed a bit of resentment and hostility toward her on other forums. Can anyone enlighten me as to why? From what I've read of her, she seems to be a fascinating and beautiful person. Why such bitterness from other online posters?

I think this thread was the perfect place to pose this question, because I believe language is the main reason there are such heavy opinions (both ways) about certain female royals. I asked myself the same question about Mary a few months ago - What makes her different from other Crown Princesses in the way that she can provoke such strong reactions? I think it all has to do with English as her first language. Her early interviews, family, press in Australia created accessibility that Mathilde, Mette-Marit, Letizia, and Maxima never could achieve. The English language gives people more material to admire, and more importantly, scrutinize.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

I have not heard Mary speak Danish but I just wonder if she speaks it with a little bit of an aussie accent.

Yes she does. At times, it's quite noticeable.

 

[nwinther]

Hello to all.

I'm new to royal watching and have to admit that I, like many Americans, don't know much about any royal family other than the British royal family. I actually became interested in the Danish royal family after watching the wedding of Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Mary on YouTube. In brief online research of CP Mary, I've noticed a bit of resentment and hostility toward her on other forums. Can anyone enlighten me as to why? From what I've read of her, she seems to be a fascinating and beautiful person. Why such bitterness from other online posters?

I look forward to being a part of this community and expanding my knowledge of royal families. Thanks for any insight, advice, and suggestions!

First of all - Welcome.

Second, I've noticed the hostility towards CPM too - it's even on this forum (she's not alone though). But other forums or comments on articles from (primarily Australian newspapers) the hostility can seem quite malicious.
I have no clear explanation for this. It seems like a blend of sour grapes, anti-monarchy sentiment, and downright envy. I've never come across anything substantial that can explain the hostility, such as concrete hostile behaviour or expression of controversial opinions etc. Usually it's something someone has said - as an anonymous source in a dubious article or book (A danish "author" Trine Villemann published a book filled with anonymous sources and slandor about the royal family) or a (falsely?) percieved arrogance.

I know there is very little critizism of Mary in Denmark (although the republicans insist that the monarchy should be abolished. Republicans can muster about 15% of the population in Denmark - on a good day).

 

[azure]

I have not heard Mary speak Danish but I just wonder if she speaks it with a little bit of an aussie accent.

There are some videos in youtube, where you can watch her speaking danish. She is really cute speaking it!

 

[olebabs]

There is nothing wrong with a little accent. Everyone who is not a native Danish, has an accent. The problem is when that accent gets to heavy, and mispronounciation makes the listener loose the meaning af what is being said. This is in no way Marys problem. Even HM Queen Ingrid had a Swedish accent to her Danish.

 

[Kellydofc]

Hello to all.

I'm new to royal watching and have to admit that I, like many Americans, don't know much about any royal family other than the British royal family. I actually became interested in the Danish royal family after watching the wedding of Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Mary on YouTube. In brief online research of CP Mary, I've noticed a bit of resentment and hostility toward her on other forums. Can anyone enlighten me as to why? From what I've read of her, she seems to be a fascinating and beautiful person. Why such bitterness from other online posters?

I look forward to being a part of this community and expanding my knowledge of royal families. Thanks for any insight, advice, and suggestions!

I noticed this too and was actually appalled by the way people talk about Mary. I think that Mary and Frederick seem like a loving but private couple. And Mary seems like a warm mother, I've seen tons of photos of her with her children.

 

[jemagre]

I noticed this too and was actually appalled by the way people talk about Mary. I think that Mary and Frederick seem like a loving but private couple. And Mary seems like a warm mother, I've seen tons of photos of her with her children.

I have noticed that people have very strong opinions about Mary in particular but I would not chalk it up to envy. Some people may not like the way she goes about her job. I know in the beginning there was criticism that she was only interested in fashion as that was an organization that she chose to represent right away vs. a more serious charitable organization. (She does love her Prada.)

Danish Royal Watchers: December 2007

She does discuss that in an interview she did several years ago. Frederick also speaks about it.

There have been other criticisms that come from the idea that she is interested in the press too much. She also took a while to speak Danish. The German Vogue article. Enough said on that topic because that really got people fired up.

I actually think that Mary is a good princess but everyone has their own ideas. Hopefully they will come forward and talk about it why they do not think that she does a good job. I am sure they have more valid concerns than I listed but those are some of the more important ideas for thought.

 

[dazzling]

I dont know why its a big deal if Mary speaks with an Aussie accent. I mean, learning a new language is not easy and Danish is said to be a difficult language. Mary has been speaking Aussie with an accent for her whole life therefore I only see her speaking another language with an accent, it doesnt matter how much she will practice, it will always be there. Let it be there, its not like she is running away from the fact she is Australian and needs to speak Danish with 0% accent.

For example, when an Arab learns English, there will be an accent. When a French learns English, there will be an accent.

I dont understand Danish but as people have said she does talk it well with mistakes sometimes but lets not forget, we also do mistakes when speaking our mother tongue language.

 

[Meadow]

I think Mary's done a good job. She moved halfway around the world to be with the one she loves. Gave up everything to take on a new country, language, traditions and a major role in a Royal Family. Of course it took her time to learn, Danish isn't the easiest language to learn and she probably didn't want to come out too soon with it or there would have been more mistakes. I think she gets pretty good press here in Oz. I don't see why he dressing well is a problem if she didn't she would be in trouble too. She picked things that interest her all of the Royals do that! She now has four children and I'm sure she will raise them well. She does still come back and visit her family here in Oz which would stop her aussie accent going completely also her accent being very english isn't unusual here in Australia not everybody had the ocker type accent. People think I'm from New Zealand or have spent a long time in the UK. I haven't it's just my accent maybe it's because my family are only second generation Aussies.

 

[Muhler]

Mary's accent is not a big deal.
- For the very simply reason that she speaks excellent Danish and she's very articulate when speaking Danish. In other words: she's mastering the language.
Of course she will make the odd mistake, so does the natives.
- That in contrast to Prince Henrik who has an excellent understanding of Danish, he just can speak Danish and most annoyingly; he constantly makes basic grammattical mistakes. He litterally can't speak two sentences without at least one basic mistake. And that's why he has got a lot of heat. Especially since he has been in DK since the late 60's.
Mary, and Marie too for that matter, is way past that.

As for Mary and fashion. Well, she had to start somewhere I guess and Danish fashion industy was and still is on the rise. According to a report I read some years ago, fashion is now an important export sector.
Now, I don't pretend to know a lot about fashion but I know what I like and Mary strikes me as being pretty stylish. In my eyes Mary's dresses, robes and what not are her "work clothes" as it is her job to represent her country and preferably looking good doing it. - I'd say she has accomplished that pretty well.

There may be many who critisize Mary, so be it, but I doubt you'll find many Danes among them.

 

[azure]

I think Mary has succeded a lot right now and it's great that she speaks danish! I don't care about her accent, but learning another language isn't the easiest thing in the world! Everywhere we're going to meet people telling good and bad things about everything.
P.S. Is danish difficult?

 

[Guiomar]

Hello to all.

In brief online research of CP Mary, I've noticed a bit of resentment and hostility toward her on other forums. Can anyone enlighten me as to why? From what I've read of her, she seems to be a fascinating and beautiful person. Why such bitterness from other online posters?

I look forward to being a part of this community and expanding my knowledge of royal families. Thanks for any insight, advice, and suggestions!

I think this thread was the perfect place to pose this question, because I believe language is the main reason there are such heavy opinions (both ways) about certain female royals. I asked myself the same question about Mary a few months ago - What makes her different from other Crown Princesses in the way that she can provoke such strong reactions? I think it all has to do with English as her first language. Her early interviews, family, press in Australia created accessibility that Mathilde, Mette-Marit, Letizia, and Maxima never could achieve. The English language gives people more material to admire, and more importantly, scrutinize.

First of all - Welcome.

Second, I've noticed the hostility towards CPM too - it's even on this forum (she's not alone though). But other forums or comments on articles from (primarily Australian newspapers) the hostility can seem quite malicious.
I have no clear explanation for this. It seems like a blend of sour grapes, anti-monarchy sentiment, and downright envy. I've never come across anything substantial that can explain the hostility, such as concrete hostile behaviour or expression of controversial opinions etc. Usually it's something someone has said - as an anonymous source in a dubious article or book (A danish "author" Trine Villemann published a book filled with anonymous sources and slandor about the royal family) or a (falsely?) percieved arrogance.

I know there is very little critizism of Mary in Denmark (although the republicans insist that the monarchy should be abolished. Republicans can muster about 15% of the population in Denmark - on a good day).

I have a theory:

The hatred for Mary was cultivated by those who loved her sister-in-law Alexandra.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f24/i-feel-sorry-for-alexandra-1024.html

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f32/alexandras-cv-v-marys-cv-1763.html

Mary was compared to Alexandra, "The Perfect Princess", since it was an ordinary girl from Tasmania.

Alexandra has a natural ability to learn languages. Mary does not have the innate ability and took longer to learn.

Alexandra has been forgotten, but ...

In general, older fans of Alexandra are in the forums anti-mary.

I do not mean all fans of Alexandra, but a few more passionate.

A curiosity:

Letizia, for example, is hated in the Spanish forums. Mary, however, has many fans.

But the Spanish language is not as universal as the English language.

 

[camelot23ca]

I have a theory:

The hatred for Mary was cultivated by those who loved her sister-in-law Alexandra.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f24/i-feel-sorry-for-alexandra-1024.html

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f32/alexandras-cv-v-marys-cv-1763.html

Mary was compared to Alexandra, "The Perfect Princess", since it was an ordinary girl from Tasmania.

Alexandra has a natural ability to learn languages. Mary does not have the innate ability and took longer to learn.

Alexandra has been forgotten, but ...

In general, older fans of Alexandra are in the forums anti-mary.

I do not mean all fans of Alexandra, but a few more passionate.

Letizia, for example, is hated in the Spanish forums. Mary, however, is admired.

But the Spanish language is not as universal as the English language.

I first became interested in the Danish monarchy very soon after Mary and Frederik's wedding and I do remember being surprised when I was browsing the forum here to get "caught up" at the level of anger directed at Mary by some of those who admired Alexandra, (and I say this as someone who thinks Alexandra is an impressive lady myself). These were postings from the months prior to the wedding, before Mary had even had a chance to do anything, I think even before anyone in Denmark had heard her speak. There were a lot of comments to the effect that Mary would never be able to compete with Alexandra, that Mary and Frederik would never be the couple Alexandra and Joachim were, that it was going to be awfully hard for this Australian upstart to spend the rest of her life in Alexandra's shadow, etc. IMO there was an underlying sense of panic that someone was joining the family who, by becoming the CROWN princess, was going to jump ahead of their favourite. Given what actually wound up happening it's something that's stuck in my mind as a reminder of how quickly and drastically situations can change.

 

[jemagre]

I have a theory:

The hatred for Mary was cultivated by those who loved her sister-in-law Alexandra.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f24/i-feel-sorry-for-alexandra-1024.html

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f32/alexandras-cv-v-marys-cv-1763.html

Mary was compared to Alexandra, "The Perfect Princess", since it was an ordinary girl from Tasmania.

Alexandra has a natural ability to learn languages. Mary does not have the innate ability and took longer to learn.

Alexandra has been forgotten, but ...

In general, older fans of Alexandra are in the forums anti-mary.

I do not mean all fans of Alexandra, but a few more passionate.

A curiosity:

Letizia, for example, is hated in the Spanish forums. Mary, however, has many fans.

But the Spanish language is not as universal as the English language.

I do not think that Alexandra has been forgotten. She still does charity work and she has been discreet when asked about the royals. She was a good example of a hard-working royal and how to live your life when you leave the "royal fold". The Queen appears to have great respect for her. Also you pointed out her aptitude for languages. However, I do not want to turn this in to a Alexandra vs. Mary argument...I do like them both no matter how different they are.

I was trying to point out the constructive criticism of Mary because it is out there. While I respect the opinion that the Danish fashion industry has grown, with her help, it didn't start out that way. So the grounds that is was a fluff charity had some basis then.

 

[Guiomar]

Sorry. I mentioned this to respond to Kansasmama, but do not want to divert the topic.

I first became interested in the Danish monarchy very soon after Mary and Frederik's wedding and I do remember being surprised when I was browsing the forum here to get "caught up" at the level of anger directed at Mary by some of those who admired Alexandra, (and I say this as someone who thinks Alexandra is an impressive lady myself). These were postings from the months prior to the wedding, before Mary had even had a chance to do anything, I think even before anyone in Denmark had heard her speak. There were a lot of comments to the effect that Mary would never be able to compete with Alexandra, that Mary and Frederik would never be the couple Alexandra and Joachim were, that it was going to be awfully hard for this Australian upstart to spend the rest of her life in Alexandra's shadow, etc. IMO there was an underlying sense of panic that someone was joining the family who, by becoming the CROWN princess, was going to jump ahead of their favourite. Given what actually wound up happening it's something that's stuck in my mind as a reminder of how quickly and drastically situations can change.

Yes, these comparisons were common in the forums until 2007.

Mary was an ordinary girl, became a princess in the Internet age and was compared (negatively) to an experienced and popular princess.

I do not think that Alexandra has been forgotten. She still does charity work and she has been discreet when asked about the royals. She was a good example of a hard-working royal and how to live your life when you leave the "royal fold". The Queen appears to have great respect for her. Also you pointed out her aptitude for languages. However, I do not want to turn this in to a Alexandra vs. Mary argument...I do like them both no matter how different they are.

I was trying to point out the constructive criticism of Mary because it is out there. While I respect the opinion that the Danish fashion industry has grown, with her help, it didn't start out that way. So the grounds that is was a fluff charity had some basis then.

Hi

I was not referring to your comment in particular. Sorry.

I do not want to enter the theme Mary vs. Alexandra. However, I wanted to indicate the source of hostility to Mary.

As the topic is about language, I mentioned the Alexandra's natural ability to learn languages.

I liked Alexandra. She handed me a image of perfection. My impression: now the Queen seems civil (only) and distant with her. I follow the Danish media and forums in general, and feel that Alexandra was forgotten. Alexandra interviews for TV (2008) and Billed Bladet and poses birthday or the children did not change this fact (but that's another topic).