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  #301  
Old 01-16-2007, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale
A main point of discusion I have noticed is that some took issue with the hype that has surrounded her. I think it pertinent to make mention that this was the media's doing, not Mary's.

What some may think to be an aloof air, I see as humble refinement. But that is just my opinion.
Some here have said Mary is more royal than many royal - look at Silvia and Sonja; so are they. It probably has a lot to do with being from the outside. A born princess has much more scope, I think. Look at Kalina of Bulgaria, or Stephanie of Monaco. I think a woman who marries into royalty is somehow expected to be more wife-y in style, more conservative, more humble, more perfect, more everything.

What is really interesting is that Mary has become such target - she doesn't seem unusual enough to me to be so criticised. Start a thread like this on any other princess and you will probably be kindly asked to leave Yet I cannot believe that I was the only one who doesn't much care for, say, Maxima.
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  #302  
Old 01-16-2007, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntie
She definitly was ambitious, Mette Marit, Maxima, Letizia and even Mathilde seemed so much more head over heels in love, they are definitly not perfect, (except for Mathilde, maybe) she had a goal and she acheived it,and she seems happy to boot.
Heu... eh... I have to correct a little bit on this: for Máxima (and she did admit it herself) it was no love at first sight at all or being head over heels. It was the Prince who started an offensive to win the heart of that mysterious blonde lady he saw in Sevilla.


I think that none of the present recent royal relationships was 'love on first sight', not Mary, Letizia, Mathilde.
Maybe Charles & Camilla and also Haakon & Mette-Marit are the exceptions.
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  #303  
Old 01-16-2007, 02:43 PM
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I hear all you are saying, and again, all of you are right to a certain extent. I can't put my finger on it, but there is definitly something about Mary, which makes her get so much criticism. Mary fans, hold on! I think she is doing a fabulous job as Crown Princess and will be definitly a GR8 Queen, but, oh but, there is something about her manner which causes you to feel that she is ambitious in everything and she was very successful in getting whet she wanted! Part of my career (last 11 year)is in PR and I see up to a few dozen clients a day and I am very succesful in my field, which includes correctly evaluating clients, and I think I have a point!
  #304  
Old 01-16-2007, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UserDane
The funny thing is - had Mary been born a princess, her obvious striving to do this job as best as possible would have been applauded by everyone.
I like that you can actually see that she is trying to do this job to the best of her ability; it's an ongoing process I think so in 10 years she may appear different from today, and that's fine too.
Very good point
  #305  
Old 01-16-2007, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntie
I hear all you are saying, and again, all of you are right to a certain extent. I can't put my finger on it, but there is definitly something about Mary, which makes her get so much criticism. Mary fans, hold on! I think she is doing a fabulous job as Crown Princess and will be definitly a GR8 Queen, but, oh but, there is something about her manner which causes you to feel that she is ambitious in everything and she was very successful in getting whet she wanted! Part of my career (last 11 year)is in PR and I see up to a few dozen clients a day and I am very succesful in my field, which includes correctly evaluating clients, and I think I have a point!
Congratulations! However, when was the last time Mary was in your office for an interview so that you could make this profound and correct evaluation.
  #306  
Old 01-16-2007, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntie
I hear all you are saying, and again, all of you are right to a certain extent. I can't put my finger on it, but there is definitly something about Mary, which makes her get so much criticism. Mary fans, hold on! I think she is doing a fabulous job as Crown Princess and will be definitly a GR8 Queen, but, oh but, there is something about her manner which causes you to feel that she is ambitious in everything and she was very successful in getting whet she wanted! Part of my career (last 11 year)is in PR and I see up to a few dozen clients a day and I am very succesful in my field, which includes correctly evaluating clients, and I think I have a point!
Isn't it rather sexist and old fashioned to condemn a woman for being ambitious? Or are modern women supposed to wait and serenely smile for our prince on a white horse to come riding by and if he doesn't we should just accept our lot in life.

Actually I don't necessarily think Mary is all that ambitious - focused yes, but ambitious? For a commoner to marry a prince these days is not so uncommon so for Mary to want to marry Frederik required some focus but she wasn't necessarily shooting for the stars.

Setting a goal, going about it in a methodical and common sense manner and then doing what it takes to achieve it is to my mind one of the highest ideals anyone can aspire to.

And yet when women display this admirable sense of focus, purpose and determination, they get branded as cold and calculating. Is there any wonder why women feel so guilty about going out and achieving their dreams when we turn around and condemn them for going out and making it happen?

With this attitude afoot, women might as well be barefoot and pregnant, always waiting for someone else to come and save them.
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  #307  
Old 01-16-2007, 05:55 PM
lisamaria's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Isn't it rather sexist and old fashioned to condemn a woman for being ambitious? Or are modern women supposed to wait and serenely smile for our prince on a white horse to come riding by and if he doesn't we should just accept our lot in life.

Actually I don't necessarily think Mary is all that ambitious - focused yes, but ambitious? For a commoner to marry a prince these days is not so uncommon so for Mary to want to marry Frederik required some focus but she wasn't necessarily shooting for the stars.

Setting a goal, going about it in a methodical and common sense manner and then doing what it takes to achieve it is to my mind one of the highest ideals anyone can aspire to.

And yet when women display this admirable sense of focus, purpose and determination, they get branded as cold and calculating. Is there any wonder why women feel so guilty about going out and achieving their dreams when we turn around and condemn them for going out and making it happen?

With this attitude afoot, women might as well be barefoot and pregnant, always waiting for someone else to come and save them.
Thank you for that speech [bows deep]
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  #308  
Old 01-16-2007, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Isn't it rather sexist and old fashioned to condemn a woman for being ambitious? Or are modern women supposed to wait and serenely smile for our prince on a white horse to come riding by and if he doesn't we should just accept our lot in life.

Actually I don't necessarily think Mary is all that ambitious - focused yes, but ambitious? For a commoner to marry a prince these days is not so uncommon so for Mary to want to marry Frederik required some focus but she wasn't necessarily shooting for the stars.

Setting a goal, going about it in a methodical and common sense manner and then doing what it takes to achieve it is to my mind one of the highest ideals anyone can aspire to.

And yet when women display this admirable sense of focus, purpose and determination, they get branded as cold and calculating. Is there any wonder why women feel so guilty about going out and achieving their dreams when we turn around and condemn them for going out and making it happen?

With this attitude afoot, women might as well be barefoot and pregnant, always waiting for someone else to come and save them.
Well, I donīt think, that this is a thing, that feminism couldnīt get out of the way so far. I think there will be always some doubts, when a rich person with status is marrying one from middle class or even lower. And I guess since there are more male rich heirs out there, itīs only natural, that more women are accused of being too ambitious, enforcing things etc.

But maybe now one could explain me, what it is, that makes Mary focused or ambitious these days. Is it, because she is the one in this relationship, who is working most (?)
  #309  
Old 01-16-2007, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
I think that none of the present recent royal relationships was 'love on first sight', not Mary, Letizia, Mathilde.
Maybe Charles & Camilla and also Haakon & Mette-Marit are the exceptions.
As Mathilde and Phillipe (AFAIK) first met at the funeral of Mathilde's sister Marie-Alix we can rule out the posibility of head over heals in during the first meeting sadly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Isn't it rather sexist and old fashioned to condemn a woman for being ambitious? Or are modern women supposed to wait and serenely smile for our prince on a white horse to come riding by and if he doesn't we should just accept our lot in life.

Actually I don't necessarily think Mary is all that ambitious - focused yes, but ambitious? For a commoner to marry a prince these days is not so uncommon so for Mary to want to marry Frederik required some focus but she wasn't necessarily shooting for the stars.

Setting a goal, going about it in a methodical and common sense manner and then doing what it takes to achieve it is to my mind one of the highest ideals anyone can aspire to.

And yet when women display this admirable sense of focus, purpose and determination, they get branded as cold and calculating. Is there any wonder why women feel so guilty about going out and achieving their dreams when we turn around and condemn them for going out and making it happen?

With this attitude afoot, women might as well be barefoot and pregnant, always waiting for someone else to come and save them.
Amen to that!!!
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  #310  
Old 01-16-2007, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lena
Well, I donīt think, that this is a thing, that feminism couldnīt get out of the way so far. I think there will be always some doubts, when a rich person with status is marrying one from middle class or even lower. And I guess since there are more male rich heirs out there, itīs only natural, that more women are accused of being too ambitious, enforcing things etc.

But maybe now one could explain me, what it is, that makes Mary focused or ambitious these days. Is it, because she is the one in this relationship, who is working most (?)
I wholeheartedly agree that marriages have a better chance to succeed when the man and wife come from the same background but I don't see anything natural at all about a woman being called too ambitious if she marries a man with more status or money than her.

Men do end up making more money and getting more status than women anyway regardless of their class so I think a woman has to work hard to find a man who makes only as much money as she does and has her level of status and not higher. That man with her status level and paycheck would probably end up being called underpaid and unrecognized and not considered a good marriage candidate.
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  #311  
Old 01-16-2007, 09:46 PM
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Crown princess Mary is doing a great job, and she seems to be an ambitius woman with integrety (so is Princess Alexandra), which for me is a very good thing. So she is very OK now.
  #312  
Old 01-17-2007, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
Perhaps, but she decided to upgrade her public image within weeks of meeting Fred. That says more about her future aspirations that anything else.
Well of course, isn't that normal?? Im sure if she didnt upgrader her appearance, people would say she simply doesnt care. I'm sorry, but what Mary did is completley normal in my eyes.

Little_star, if you were in Mary's position, before she met Fred and realised she would be in the public image, would you not take extra care about the way you look? If someone shoves a camera in your face, i would bet anything you would tidy up your hair or make sure you are looking good. Am I right?
  #313  
Old 01-17-2007, 05:37 AM
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I agree with you, Australian.

I think Mary is doing a great job and if I had been in her position I would certainly have made an effort to look my best and even seek advice about how to look my best. (it doesn't come naturally to all of us )

You only have to look at The Monaco thread to see the comments made about Charlene Wittstock (Prince Albert's current companion) and her looks and style and basically everything about the woman is questioned. (I know there are other reasons there as well - please don't take offense).

At the end of the days your looks and style are always judged if you are in the public eye- so you may as well make your best effort.
(Besides photographers always seem to be out to get the worst picture of a public figure anyway)
  #314  
Old 01-17-2007, 09:58 AM
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Mary is beautiful. Period. She was born with that. Sometimes I wonder if people would like her better if she was a little more homely. She had style before she was married, and now she has money, so she is even more stylish. I would be too.
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  #315  
Old 01-17-2007, 10:24 AM
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That's what I actually like. Mary and also Letizia are not homely.
That's what makes them most interesting IMO.
I like Mathilde, Maxima and Mette-Marit too but they appear so awfully homely at times

.
  #316  
Old 01-17-2007, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricarda
That's what I actually like. Mary and also Letizia are not homely.
That's what makes them most interesting IMO.
I like Mathilde, Maxima and Mette-Marit too but they appear so awfully homely at times

.
Mette-Marit is the most beautiful of the Crown Princesses, I think.
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  #317  
Old 01-17-2007, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricarda
That's what I actually like. Mary and also Letizia are not homely.
That's what makes them most interesting IMO.
I like Mathilde, Maxima and Mette-Marit too but they appear so awfully homely at times
I recently read some brief article about Mary and Letizia's pregnancy clothes, and on the reader comments quite a few Spanish readers thought Letizia plain next to Mary; in the pictures MAry was wearing the lilac gown from the New Year and diamonds, Letizia just some ordinary dress and no make-up. Tell me the press isn't trying to sell us something

Beauty is very much in the eye of beholder and so we will probably never get a concesus on who is the fairest of them all. But MAry looks very princessy, in my eyes much more than, say, Mette-MArit, who is also fabulously beautiful. It probably both pleases and puts off people.
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  #318  
Old 01-17-2007, 11:30 PM
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I have posted on this topic in this thread before, so I'll avoid answering the question again.

I have a question. Why do some people think Mary is ambitious? Frederik is a good-looking, intelligent and sincerely nice guy. Even if he wasn't a prince, I think Mary could fall in love with him. Sure, it's more enticing that he's a wealthy prince, but he's hardly "below her" without his wealth and title. I know that people make the "ambitious" argument regarding W-A/Maxima and Philippe/Mathilde, because some argue that both princes are less attractive (physically? personality-wise? I'm not sure) than their wives, but I don't think this is the case in Mary/Fred's case. Frederik, even without the title and wealth, seems like a pretty great person, and I don't find it hard to believe that Mary would fall in love with Fred, the person, not Frederik, the future king of Denmark...
  #319  
Old 01-17-2007, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by politikgirl
I have posted on this topic in this thread before, so I'll avoid answering the question again.

I have a question. Why do some people think Mary is ambitious? Frederik is a good-looking, intelligent and sincerely nice guy. Even if he wasn't a prince, I think Mary could fall in love with him. Sure, it's more enticing that he's a wealthy prince, but he's hardly "below her" without his wealth and title. I know that people make the "ambitious" argument regarding W-A/Maxima and Philippe/Mathilde, because some argue that both princes are less attractive (physically? personality-wise? I'm not sure) than their wives, but I don't think this is the case in Mary/Fred's case. Frederik, even without the title and wealth, seems like a pretty great person, and I don't find it hard to believe that Mary would fall in love with Fred, the person, not Frederik, the future king of Denmark...
Well if she is falling in love with the title as opposed to the person, that tells us that for Mary and Frederik, personal feelings about each other are not the be-all and end-all requirement for a successful marriage. That would not be unusual and that would also not be a sign of a broken marriage. On the contrary, some marriages like this are very successful.

Do they really love each other? Who really knows outside the couple themselves? Were they marrying into a lifestyle more than a person? Again, that's hard to judge from the outside.

And Fred could be marrying into a lifestyle just as much as Mary. His lifestyle and public image could be very different depending on the woman he married. Imagine a Frederik married to a Mette-Marit or a Maxima and how different their public life and roles would look. Mette-Marit would bring something very different to the role and Fred as a partner in this marriage would have to adjust.

I think Mary thought about the lifestyle she would lead if she married Frederik and I think Frederik thought about the type of life he would lead with Mary at his side. I think its smart to think whether they could be comfortable in the type of life they would lead with each other.
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  #320  
Old 01-18-2007, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
IIRC correctly that Mary said in her engagement interviews that she first attended the course and then met the prince. If it is so, do you want to call her a liar in addition?
I'm sure she said that.
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