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  #241  
Old 11-02-2006, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
But I don't see her as a shallow person because of it.
Neither do I UserDane. Infact, far from it

If some people think Mary is shallow because of her fashion interests then I must be 100 times more shallow than her
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  #242  
Old 11-02-2006, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlota
it's not only about the industry mary represents. it's not only as her being patron of the danish fashion. it's about her demonstrating shallowness sometimes. don't misunderstand me: i also think mary dresses beautifully and i would love to have some of her beautiful dresses BUT: is this the image she wants to give? of a shallow, superficial person who thinks about how she dresses all the time? i doubt mary could afford any of the clothes she now wears before her marriage, and this gives me a slight impression of her as a 'new rich' as we call it in my language (not sure of the word in english, but if you don't understand it, just tell me). as much as i like dressing nice and professional, even to go to university, i don't like people seeing me as a person who only thinks of that. we rarely see mary and frederik in this spare time, but when they went out, we normally saw mary shopping (mary while in london, mary once shopping with christian under a big 'poncho'...).
I am sure this is not the image she wants to give.
And this is not the image I personally have.

And I am sure Mary does not want to be seen as a person who only thinks of fashion.
Hence here 18 patronages which have nothing to do with fashion.
Hence her workschedule which shows a wide range of different engagements.

None of the current crownprincesses could afford the dresses they are wearing now.
And therefore I think that this argument is really not valid.
Besides, if there is one woman who gives to me the impression of a "new rich"
through her over-the-top-way of dressing it is Maxima. (I still like her, though.)

We actually could see M&F doing other things than shopping in their sparetime.
Mary for example was reading a book about mental illness in her holidays. Now, what does that say about her?
Besides, I have seen photos of Letizia and Felipe or Alexandra or Mette-Marit shopping at least as many times
as I have seen photos of Mary and Frederik shopping.

I hope you don't find this offending but I really think your selective way of perception is the reason
why you have this image of Mary and not Mary's workschedule or sparetime activities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlota
i hope no one finds it offending. i really try hard to see mary as the nice, 'down to earth girl' everyone wants to see, but there's something about her that just doesn't fit in the image she gives.
I don't understand what you mean.
First you claim that the image Mary wants to give is that of a shallow woman.
And then you say that there is something that just doesn't fit in the image she gives?
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  #243  
Old 11-02-2006, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlota
i think the royal house should be a bit more selective for the engagements they choose for mary.

if your comment was directed to mette marit in malawi, i must say i didn't in a long time see people who were so delighted by a royal visit. i interpreted it as a sign of warmth and humbleness by mette marit. coming back to your third paragraph, this demonstrates how although in their own country they are wished and expected, the new country offers a much more challenging and ambitious perspective: an opportunity for the royal, for the royal family and for the country she represents to be known. it shows how a royal enters a circle that is unknown to him to begin those diplomatic relations you mentioned before, which is usually harder than just maintaining those that already exist.

ricarda, that's certainly a difficult question to answer and i'm sorry i have not done much research into which royal speeches 'made a difference'. i can however speak as a person who takes part of a large model united nations society, that travels all around the world (this year we are going to oxford, montreal and geneva) to debate different topics, where i have seen the most unexpected reactions towards a speech or a debate. it's indeed a difficult place to be, that's why i personally admire those royals that actively take part in different typr of world conferences, usually reserved for diplomats of politicians, due to the understanding they have on world history and international relations.

i can however mention an example that is maxima and one of her last speeches, which was full of interesting content, not just congratulating, exposing or thanking, but going ahead suggesting new possible methods of doing something. this was very much commented in the dutch forums, if i'm not mistaken, by many members. it already takes a lot of time and effort to expose the facts, but... it takes even more (significantly more) to suggest new ways of doing things, as this means not only research, but understanding.
Carlota, I agree with you in many parts.
But then I disagree in others :
Mary has given speeches at the World Health Organization conference
(there you have your world conference or at least European world conference ),
for the Danish Heart Ass., Mental Health Ass. and so on,
she is patron of 20 organizations, the Danish Refugee Council among others.
And I can't quite see why you consider all this as unimportant.
I also can't see why you think the royal house should be more selective.
IMO her engagements show a good mixture and balance.

How do you know Mary did not make a difference through her speeches and appearances at various functions?
Many organizations she is working with claim she does.
Her activities are focused on Denmark at the moment but then she is CP of Denmark.
And again she is only a CP since 2 1/2 years. I am sure she will steadily sharpen her profile
and in time perhaps even visit countries in need.

Maxima has done a great job with the microfinance but as I pointed out earlier
she started with this engagement 2 years and ~9 months after her wedding.
(And I personally think she could be more involved with Dutch organizations and subjects
that are relevant for a majority in the Netherlands, but that's just my personal opinion.)
Mette-Marit took a year off in London (I wonder what would have happened if Mary had done that?),
her trip to Malawi was in January 2005, 3 1/2 years after her marriage,
the first world conference she attended was this year.

Give Mary a little time to develop (as you were obviously able to give to Maxima and Mette-Marit).
  #244  
Old 11-02-2006, 08:35 AM
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Carlota,

Just as an FYI, in case you are not aware. The Dutch Royal family do not have any influence over politics, or business associations, etc. Their speeches are most likely either written for them, or at the very least vetted not only by the RVD, but also by the PM/cabinet. Not to say that what they say is not important, but it might not be their ideas, thoughts or what they would wish to say. I think that perhaps other Royal Families might have more in the way of freedom when it comes to what they can and can not say.

And I have to say that I am with Australian and Lise on this. I think that everyone should just step back, breathe and perhaps read the transcripts of the speeches, which I am sure someone on this board would happily translate if needed.

Just my two cents

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  #245  
Old 11-02-2006, 03:21 PM
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I guess this entire thread begs the question whether or not Mary was "not OK" in the first place.

Obviously, the one who it counts most to -- Prince Frederik -- thought she was quite OK. Beyond that, she, like anyone else, will have her fans and her detractors. Sorry, but what more is there to talk about?

I think this thread should really be called -- "Mary - yea or nea?"
  #246  
Old 11-02-2006, 03:32 PM
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Too true. I was just thinking the same thing this morning. We can discuss this till the cows come home, but in the end our opinion is worth nothing.

What matters is if her husband loves her, and if her adopted country likes and approves of her. A resounding yes seems to be the answer to both of those questions.
  #247  
Old 11-02-2006, 04:36 PM
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hi everyone again :)

Quote:
Many think she is a beautiful woman, should she try and make herself less beautiful just to please people?
australian, i never said that. in fact, i mentioned in this very thread how i really like most of the times how mary dresses, even when i sometimes find it shallow, as i said.

Quote:
But QMII also dresses more expensively than most woman her age - as does queen Silvia and queen Sonja. I bet Mette-Marit also dresses more expensively now than she did pre-Haakon.
Quote:
I have noticed that we see a lot of reuse in Mary's wardrobe now; to me that signifies that her wardrobe has been through a building up phase - which to most of us 'mere mortals' may seem overwhelming but is necessary.
userdane: i understand your point about other royals and how they dress. they will certainly have more expensive and international brand clothes than many of us. but it's in other actions that you see they are laid back: sonja could have chosen a wedding dress from the most expensive norwegian designer. instead, she chose to make her dress herself. about mette marit... she is still wearing the same clothes than she was 5 years ago! there's nothing shallow in that atitude, even when she wore a beautiful valentino at felipe and letizia's wedding or if she wears a nice chanel suit. letizia herself, to mention a princess, wore a skirt that was from hugo boss for the prince of asturias awards. how surprisingly, this wasn't even noticed by anyone and never any reporters critisised her for it, as they are so used to her using spanish brands and not even thinking she could buy from boss. and believe me on this, the spanish press is trying to find every single detail to critisise her...

i don't see mary's wardrobe as ending its build up phase at all, but again, i have nothing against it. she is free to re-use clothes, or to buy new ones, or to give them to charity... i'm not a danish taxpayer, and as long as the danish people are ok with it, i see no reason for me to complain.

Quote:
None of the current crownprincesses could afford the dresses they are wearing now.
And therefore I think that this argument is really not valid.
Besides, if there is one woman who gives to me the impression of a "new rich"
through her over-the-top-way of dressing it is Maxima. (I still like her, though.)
ricarda, i couldn't have a more different opinion on this: maxima was never a 'new rich' simply because she was always quite a 'rich' person. not only because of having grew up in an upper class argentinian family, but because of her career (i doubt the manager of deutsche bank for latin america would be boarding misery). she even stays loyal to her 'all the time' argentinian brands, and so does her family.

Quote:
I don't understand what you mean.
First you claim that the image Mary wants to give is that of a shallow woman.
And then you say that there is something that just doesn't fit in the image she gives?
i never said that. that wouldn't be logical. who would want to be considered as shallow?
the other comment meant that there's something strange about her, but i can't tell what it is exactly.

Quote:
Mette-Marit took a year off in London (I wonder what would have happened if Mary had done that?),
i certainly didn't support the year off in london... i thought it was unnecesary and weird considering they were the future monarchs of a country who just after the wedding decided to live somewhere else.

Quote:
Give Mary a little time to develop
perhaps it is a matter of time. i was quite hard on mette marit and letizia (and even on maxima at the very start), to mention a few, but they both surprised me, in a realy good way, after some time.

Quote:
Just as an FYI, in case you are not aware. The Dutch Royal family do not have any influence over politics, or business associations, etc. Their speeches are most likely either written for them, or at the very least vetted not only by the RVD, but also by the PM/cabinet. Not to say that what they say is not important, but it might not be their ideas, thoughts or what they would wish to say. I think that perhaps other Royal Families might have more in the way of freedom when it comes to what they can and can not say.
i think the opinions of the royals in the netherlands have an important influence. if not, why was maxima given a seat at the very respected council of state? as far as i know, no other princesses hold a similar position.
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  #248  
Old 11-02-2006, 04:44 PM
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Carlota,

The Dutch royals do not have a public political opinion at all. It is simply not allowed. The queens speeches on Princes day in September are written for her.

Maxima might hold a seat, by virtue of her background in business, and she might offer thoughts, but I would seriously doubt if she opines on anything of political importance or takes a stand on a specific issue. My husband is Dutch and I lived there for quite some time, and it is simple, the Queen and the royal family do not have a political position.
  #249  
Old 11-02-2006, 04:51 PM
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Let's remember that the name of this thread is "Four years down the track; Is Mary OK now?" and so, let's not stray too far down the road from this topic.

Thanks,

Mandy
  #250  
Old 11-02-2006, 06:14 PM
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I think that Mary was GREAT then and better now
  #251  
Old 11-03-2006, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lise
Carlota I'm with Australian on this, I think it's the image the media has given Mary. I think Mary would never have been able to afford the clothes she wears now pre-Fred. I would also expect someone in Mary's 'job' to wear the clothes she does. I'm sure she'd be criticised if she didn't.
I'm with you here too Lise,
there is no way Mary could get away with wearing just ordinary clothes and that goes for all Royals.I don't mean she has to be dripping in diamonds either when she goes to a charity but she dresses for the occasion and even recycles her things but even then some don't appreciate this either...I do believe that the build up and hype is the press- they like to create that image to keep the public interested- it's all great PR for Denmark and Australia.
  #252  
Old 11-03-2006, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empress
Carlota,

The Dutch royals do not have a public political opinion at all. It is simply not allowed. The queens speeches on Princes day in September are written for her.

Maxima might hold a seat, by virtue of her background in business, and she might offer thoughts, but I would seriously doubt if she opines on anything of political importance or takes a stand on a specific issue. My husband is Dutch and I lived there for quite some time, and it is simple, the Queen and the royal family do not have a political position.
The only speech that is written for the queen is the one she delivers on Princes Day, ( same as in the Uk where the government of the day write the speech the monarch delivers on the Opening of Parliament, also Sweden) the Dutch royals do actually write their own speeches. Maxima holds her seat on the State council not by virtue of her business background but because she is a royal, she was granted this seat after 2 years of "princess training" the queen and Prince of Orange are also on the council.
In Denmark, CP Frederik attends State Council meetings ( as does the Queen) but not Mary. ( Not totally off topic moderators! )

Dutch royals, especially the queen are quite political, in an understated way. Henri M could probably give far more examples, but here are the ones I'm aware off. During the Russian State visit, the queen made sure that members of Amnesty International were invited to events where they would meet President Putin. During the Dutch State visit to Argentina, Beatrix met privately with the Grandmothers of the Disappeared, Maxima too, and made sure that the news of this meeting was released. At the contra-event, Argentina's first openly gay couple were invited as were members of Amnesty Internation. Again news of their invitation was released.
Before Maxima was involved with microcredit, she was involved in The Netherlands with integration of migrant women.
  #253  
Old 11-03-2006, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polly
I, too, have an LLB, amongst others, from an Australian university. What you believe is compatible between the Uk and Australia just ain't necessarily so.
Well, that's why I asked what the differences were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polly
For instance, my brother had a postgraduate Arts degree from Australia and only needed a minimal amount of time to become a barrister in the UK. He needed no specific academic experience at all to practise in law, but did need experience, which he gained from Chambers.
So he had to do a pupillage? When you say minimal, do you mean 1 year, 2......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polly
So: your point about CP Mary is?
I didn't have a point about Mary, per se, but about the Australian system and about her degree in particular. As she took a joint honours degree, would she have even be able to undertake formal legal training if she wanted to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polly
Like so many of us, the princess studied Law, which gave her the entre into an enormously wide field of business. That she didn't complete her one-year's legal 'apprenticeship' in a law firm to enable her to be a practising lawyer, is really of little consideration.
Well it is when she's described as a lawyer.
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  #254  
Old 11-03-2006, 06:17 AM
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We are really far away from our topic now.
Thanks for the interesting informations, though.

My final remark on this topic now:
Although I like Maxima a lot and think she is doing a great job right now,
I think Mary has done a much better job than Maxima in her first 2 1/2 years.
IMO Mary has shown a great dedication to her new role right from the beginning
and the will to do what is best for Denmark and Danish economy.
I was quite sceptical towards her in the beginning - though I guess she was ok -
but she surprised me in a positive way.
And it took her less time to give me a positive impression of her work than Maxima and Mette-Marit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte1
Before Maxima was involved with microcredit, she was involved in The Netherlands with integration of migrant women.
That is correct.
Still, her engagement did not start before 2004.
IMO she really took it easy the first two years of her marriage.

Quote:
ricarda, i couldn't have a more different opinion on this: maxima was never a 'new rich' simply because she was always quite a 'rich' person. not only because of having grew up in an upper class argentinian family, but because of her career (i doubt the manager of deutsche bank for latin america would be boarding misery). she even stays loyal to her 'all the time' argentinian brands, and so does her family.
Maxima was wealthier than others but her wealth was nothing to the wealth of her new family.
Perhaps she could afford an expensive dress once in a while but if you look at pictures of the pre-wedding-Maxima
she certainly was not dressed as expensive as she is dressed now and did not wear juwels and fancy hats.
There certainly has been a change of style and an improvement of wealth.

Besides, if I say "new rich" I mean "showing off your wealth", "dressing in a loud way".
Even people with "old" money or from upperclass families can do that.
And it's even worse in their case.
  #255  
Old 11-03-2006, 10:38 AM
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This isn't meant to go off topic but since a number of posts seem to deal with 'what is a patron', 'what does a patron do' I thought I would post this.

It is from the British Royal Family but since it seems (at least to me) that royal patrons 'jobs' are very similar in each country this gives a good overview.

I'm not posting it here so that people can comment on the BRF, just for those who are unsure about what the 'job' entails it gives a good overview.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page1729.asp
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  #256  
Old 11-03-2006, 01:53 PM
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Can we return back to the main topic of discussion here, Four years down the track; Is Mary OK now?, please.


  #257  
Old 12-30-2006, 01:32 AM
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Once again, I'm very late with my comments.

Nevertheless, I think that CP Mary and the other 'newbie' CPs in Europe are all dong well. Every credit to them. It can't be easy for these women with people such as we criticising and carping at their every action.

In my view, CP MAry is more than O.K. I think her intelligent; elegant; motherly and a good wife. I also think that she exhibits due deference to the people and Throne of Denmark, and that they're lucky to have her.

Polly
  #258  
Old 01-09-2007, 03:11 PM
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I don't have patience to read all the 256 posts on this thread, but from being an avid royalty watcher I can say the following: ( I hope noone will shoot me PLEASE...)In my opinion, the reason Mary gets the most criticsm of being fashion conscious, shallow etc. is because she, as a crown Princess, has changed the most. Maxima is more groomed than before, but there is still something of the vivacious fun-loving Maxima apaprent to all, Mette Marit has come a long way since her single mother days, in more ways than one, but she still has something of the common touch about her, even in designer suits etc. Letizia, being in the limelight before meeting Felipe, knew how to behave, dress etc. in public, Mathilde is aristocratic and classy as she always was. Maxima, Mete Marit, Mathilde, Letizia of pre-royal days IS STILL HERE!
Whilst Mary, who was an average nice girl from a normal warm family, IS NO LONGER APPARENT! she is still there, undreneath, but you can't see her!
  #259  
Old 01-09-2007, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntie
Whilst Mary, who was an average nice girl from a normal warm family, IS NO LONGER APPARENT! she is still there, undreneath, but you can't see her!
If Mary completely redesigning herself into a fashionista and "CP" is what it takes for her to be "OK", then I agree she is. Auntie, you are so correct...what happened to the little Tassie girl?
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  #260  
Old 01-09-2007, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
"Whilst Mary, who was an average nice girl from a normal warm family,.."
"what happened to the little Tassie girl?"
I am always astonished when I read comments like that.
Did you know Mary personally before she became a crownprincess?
How do you know she was an "average nice girl" or a "little Tassie girl"?
On the other hand how do you know she isn't still "an average nice girl from a normal warm family"?
How do you know whether her personality has changed or not?

I only took notice of Mary a few months before her engagement with Frederik was announced.
Although not having been in the limelight before she met Frederik, like Letizia,
she knew from the very beginning how to behave and how to dress appropriately IMO.
I never saw bad manners or fashion desasters.
I never saw a "little Tassie girl", whatever that means.

To me Mary always seemed very discreet, dignified, stylish (though dressed less expensive),
not a very outgoing or extrovert person, but intelligent, courageous and strong-willed.
That's all I could see in her, it's my personal impression of course and might be wrong.
And in my eyes she hasn't changed that much, regarding what I assume is her personality.
(Actually I do remember having seen an interview with a Tasmanian woman who knew Mary before
and who said Mary hasn't changed, just her look has.)

On the other hand I think that Mette-Marit and Letizia seem to have changed much more than Mary,
regarding what I assume were their personalities.
Where is that power-woman Letizia?
Where is the unconventional Mette-Marit?
Gone with the wind.

But of course their looks haven't changed that much.
Which makes it easier for people to believe they are still the same.
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