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  #481  
Old 08-07-2015, 03:26 PM
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Yes she did. They both looked wonderful and I am so pleased given the tragedy that he has faced that he has found happiness. His mothers, aunts and uncles relationship histories make him a very brave man. I hope that they continue to grow in love and remain this happy together.
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  #482  
Old 08-07-2015, 05:03 PM
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The point fandesacs2003 made is clear. Not many ladies can claim to have direct links with the Borromeos, the Marzottis, the Agnellis, the Elkanns, the Casiraghis, the Grimaldis. Not many ladies can discuss with their partner: "Eeeermmmm.... what shall we do: your family's castle, or my family's castle?" Beatrice is not exactly "from the street", which can also be said about Pierre. And these extraordinary circumstances made that this wedding was very interesting for us. Technically noble yes/or no despite being born from two aristocratic parents.
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  #483  
Old 08-07-2015, 05:18 PM
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Just an observation but it's a tad unsettling how some people never fail to overemphasize the fact that the bride is born "out of wedlock." She isn't some illegitimate child hidden by anyone, she has a relationship not only with her father (presumably) but her legitimate half siblings and the whole clan of her father. I'm not familiar with Italian law but if it's like most countries in the Western world, there is no distinction between legitimate and illegitimate children unless there's a throne involved.

At the end of the day, she is Beatrice Borromeo, not Beatrice Marzotto. What is the fuss?
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  #484  
Old 08-07-2015, 05:22 PM
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Totally agree with you moby Amen to that.
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  #485  
Old 08-07-2015, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moby View Post
Just an observation but it's a tad unsettling how some people never fail to overemphasize the fact that the bride is born "out of wedlock." She isn't some illegitimate child hidden by anyone, she has a relationship not only with her father (presumably) but her legitimate half siblings and the whole clan of her father. I'm not familiar with Italian law but if it's like most countries in the Western world, there is no distinction between legitimate and illegitimate children unless there's a throne involved.

At the end of the day, she is Beatrice Borromeo, not Beatrice Marzotto. What is the fuss?
On itself there is still a distinction between children born into a legal union and children not born into a legal union. In the second case parents still have to take additional actions at the municipal register to register parenthood and so obtain parenthood rights.

In most European countries the term "extra-marital children" has been changed into "children who are into a family-relation with their parents" and "children who are not into a family-relation with their parents".

In some countries with a nobility regulated by Law, like the Netherlands, the Nobility Act has been modernized to this new legal understanding: a child from a titled father born out of a legal union can request recognition at the Court of Justice including the right to use the title and surname of the father. Was Donna Beatrice a Dutch citizen, she could have applied to be known as Countess Borromeo.
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  #486  
Old 08-07-2015, 05:48 PM
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Duc perhaps it doesn't matter to the bride and groom? Perhaps to them getting married was about leaving the past behind and moving into a future together? The weddings were about a sacred union, a sign of commitment and optimism about a joint future?
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  #487  
Old 08-07-2015, 06:06 PM
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But once parenthood is established, the child has the same rights as any legal issue, no, thus erasing the distinction between legitimate and illegitimate? At least that's what I'd expect from the laws of a progressive state.

Thanks for the info, btw, Duc, really fascinating!
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  #488  
Old 08-07-2015, 08:38 PM
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I am unable to copy links via the phone, i suuggest to Google "il Papa grazia carolina", an article by Repubblica.It dated 1993. It resumes and explains reasonably well that the casiraghi siblings have been specially "legitimised"by the pope to enable them entering Monaco's succession line. Re. Titles, Beatrice Borromeo herself explained in an interview to Claudio Sabelli Fioretti that she does not have any titles and likes this as is. Therefore the goodwill to attribute any titles to her at all costs looks unnecessary and unsolicited. Calling things by their name is ethical.
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  #489  
Old 08-07-2015, 11:00 PM
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What an odd discussion this has become. So the Vatican declared Caroline's children "legitimate" in 1993. In the eyes of the law, they were never "illegitimate". It means nothing.

So, after a lovely wedding, which followed a lovely engagement, which followed a long courtship, why now are we debating the legal or religious legitimacy of both Beatrice and Pierre? That ship has long since sailed after the aforementioned lovely wedding!
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  #490  
Old 08-07-2015, 11:41 PM
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Excellent points all, MARG!

Beautiful wedding, gorgeous bride. And hopefully she and her groom are now enjoying the most delightful of honeymoons and will eventually produce a gaggle of adorable babies.

All legitimate of course!
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  #491  
Old 08-08-2015, 12:02 AM
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I agree with honeybees, I doubt whether Pierre or Beatrice give a hoot about titles and the rest. They are privileged as it is. They could afford a beautiful and romantic wedding and are happy together...MARG, well done, you do have a way with words!


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  #492  
Old 08-09-2015, 04:02 AM
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Here are two more galleries of the couple, their guests and the fashion choices they've made:



** pm gallery: Retour sur les looks de mariée de Beatrice **


** pm gallery: Concours d'élégance au mariage de Pierre Casiraghi **
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  #493  
Old 08-09-2015, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Debbies View Post
I am unable to copy links via the phone, i suuggest to Google "il Papa grazia carolina", an article by Repubblica.It dated 1993. It resumes and explains reasonably well that the casiraghi siblings have been specially "legitimised"by the pope to enable them entering Monaco's succession line. Re. Titles, Beatrice Borromeo herself explained in an interview to Claudio Sabelli Fioretti that she does not have any titles and likes this as is. Therefore the goodwill to attribute any titles to her at all costs looks unnecessary and unsolicited. Calling things by their name is ethical.
But no one gives a title to Beatrice. No one says Contessa Borromeo. Yes, Donna Beatrice is used, but that is no title at all, that is just a courtoisie to wives and daughters of noblemen, no more, no less.

It is nice that the Holy Father "graced" Princess Caroline but the Constitution of Monaco and the Code Civil learns that the civil marriage is the only one which is legally valid for monégasque law. There is no word about any requirement for having a religious marriage at all.

This picture shows the one and the only marriage of Prince Albert. All the rest is totally irrelevant for law.

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  #494  
Old 08-09-2015, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
But no one gives a title to Beatrice. No one says Contessa Borromeo. Yes, Donna Beatrice is used, but that is no title at all, that is just a courtoisie to wives and daughters of noblemen, no more, no less.

It is nice that the Holy Father "graced" Princess Caroline but the Constitution of Monaco and the Code Civil learns that the civil marriage is the only one which is legally valid for monégasque law. There is no word about any requirement for having a religious marriage at all.

This picture shows the one and the only marriage of Prince Albert. All the rest is totally irrelevant for law.

Then why does every single solitary Prince of Monaco...indeed every Sovereign of every ruling House in Europe, insist on having a marriage blessed by the Church?

Perhaps it's "irrelevant for law" but apparently the Royals don't feel sufficiently married without it.
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  #495  
Old 08-09-2015, 11:48 AM
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In my opinion for by far a large majority in Europe it is just a beautiful tradition. Many couples, in daily life practically living an atheïst lifestyle, still request a marriage in church, despite more than 200 years of the Code Napoléon. In most countries in Europe however, there is a sharp decline in religious marriages.

In some countries there is a mixed form: for an example in Spain, Portugal and Poland the wedding may be contracted in a religious service but the Priest has to register it in the municipal register, only after this formal registration the wedding gets legal validity. Only in very Catholic countries like Ireland, the religious wedding has the same legal validity as a civil wedding. That is why in these named countries the percentage of religious weddings is still high: why go to the City Hall when it can be done in a church?

And where is "tradition" almost the raison d'être for its existence? Yes, the monarchies... It is not so strange they cling to traditional institutions as the Church or the armed forces. That is no different in Monaco.
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  #496  
Old 08-09-2015, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Then why does every single solitary Prince of Monaco...indeed every Sovereign of every ruling House in Europe, insist on having a marriage blessed by the Church?

Perhaps it's "irrelevant for law" but apparently the Royals don't feel sufficiently married without it.
I am sure most want a marriage blessed/sanctioned by the church. For the faithful, it means a lot to have your marriage pledged in Church. It's also great PR and it upholds tradition. Royalty and tradition do tend to lean on one another for support. And surely, there is no harm in having a sacred ceremony as well as a secular one?
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  #497  
Old 08-09-2015, 02:54 PM
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It's been said several times before: Please stay on topic of this thread! This is a thread dedicated to the wedding of Pierre and Beatrice. Posts about wedding traditions in other countries and other topics have been deleted.
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  #498  
Old 08-09-2015, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Then why does every single solitary Prince of Monaco...indeed every Sovereign of every ruling House in Europe, insist on having a marriage blessed by the Church?

Perhaps it's "irrelevant for law" but apparently the Royals don't feel sufficiently married without it.
Perhaps, they do it for their nation, so as not to offend anyone. (..)
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  #499  
Old 08-09-2015, 09:28 PM
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Wedding photo gallery covering the days before, during, and after the ceremony in Lago Maggiore: Pierre Casiraghi e Beatrice Borromeo, le foto mai viste del matrimonio religioso sul Lago Maggiore | People
The space for speculation must have been very small, as the best piece of gossip that Oggi has on offer is an alleged "stomach problem" which has supposedly hit the whole Grimaldi family members once arrived on Lago Maggiore. This has been denied by the hotel staff. The wedding guests where accommodated in two places: Hotel Majestic in Pallanza for the Grimaldi family, and Hotel des Iles Borromees in Arona for the others. Reportedly it was a hard time for guests due to the unexpected cold and breezy weather and the extensive boat travelling from their respective hotels to Isolino di San Giovanni, then back to the hotels for a change and on board the boats again to Rocca di Angera for the night gala. I now wonder: who's paid the bills? :)
On other topics discussed so far, I saw a number of very confident statements but poor or no quotation of sources by some of the most confident writers, plus a frequent zooming out of pointed questions. My understanding is that in this forum such statements would need to be based on better grounds than that. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. I usually make the effort to offer some references or at least explain where my statements come from. Wouldn't it be good if others did the same so that we can all learn something?
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  #500  
Old 08-11-2015, 10:10 AM
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According to Hola the earrings Beatrice wore for the civil ceremony were a wedding gift from Princess Caroline. The earrings were designed by the viennese jewller A.E. Köchert, costed 13.500 euros and are made of white gold, diamonds and morganite.

Una joya 'de emperatriz', el regalo de Carolina de Mónaco a Beatrice Borromeo

Una joya 'de emperatriz', el regalo de Carolina de Mónaco a Beatrice Borromeo
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