Wedding of Pierre Casiraghi and Beatrice Borromeo, July 25 & August 1, 2015

[fandesacs2003]

I fully understand why they did a religious wedding.
First of all we all talk about her being atheist but what about Pierre? He might be strong catholic and she accepted to please him.
Another explanation is the family and social circle.
If I could compare Italy to Greece here in Greece very few people do a civil wedding. The huge majority even if they are not religious they go to the churche for marriage. Because the family wAnts it and because it is the social habit. Maybe they did for the same reason.

 

[Debbies]

In monaco religious wedding is needed for succession. The casiraghi siblings where "graced" (graziati) via a special procedure of the catholic Church years ago and were therefore enabled to enter the succession line.

 

[Florestane]

A religious wedding is not required, as far as I'm aware. The Ducruet children are in the line of succession and Princess Stephanie only married civilly.

 

[Honeybees]

In monaco religious wedding is needed for succession. The casiraghi siblings where "graced" (graziati) via a special procedure of the catholic Church years ago and were therefore enabled to enter the succession line.

Thank you Debbies, I remember reading about it in a Roman Catholic paper at the time and I checked online and I read that about Caroline's children and their being admitted to the line of succession.

 

[noda]

Caroline married Stefano Casiraghi in a civil Wedding because for The Catholic Church she was still married with Philippe Junot. At that time Caroline already asked the Religious Wedding Annulment to the Sacra Rota (Catholic Church Court). Unfortunatly the Annulment came late (1992) and she could not marry, in a Religious Ceremony, Stefano who died in 1990. Soon after the Annulment the Roman Catholic Church recognised the Casiraghi siblings as Catholics and they enter in the Succession Line. Hope to have cleared This matter.

 

[RoyalOutcast]

A religious wedding is not required, as far as I'm aware. The Ducruet children are in the line of succession and Princess Stephanie only married civilly.

They are only in line because they were "legitimated" by their parents' subsequent marriage. Stéphanie's third child is not, on the other hand.

Caroline married Stefano Casiraghi in a civil Wedding because for The Catholic Church she was still married with Philippe Junot. At that time Caroline already asked the Religious Wedding Annulment to the Sacra Rota (Catholic Church Court). Unfortunatly the Annulment came late (1992) and she could not marry, in a Religious Ceremony, Stefano who died in 1990. Soon after the Annulment the Roman Catholic Church recognised the Casiraghi siblings as Catholics and they enter in the Succession Line. Hope to have cleared This matter.

Two out of Caroline's three marriages were conducted outside of the Roman Catholic church. Her marriage to Casiraghi was not annulled until two years after he died and her marriage to Ernst could not be religious as he was divorced. Stéphanie married Daniel Ducruet AFTER the birth of both Louis and Pauline.She never identified the father of her third child.

However, AFAIK, neither Caroline or Stéphanie has ever declared themselves to be an atheist.

 

[Zonk]

Let's stay on topic....this is actually the wedding thread of Pierre and Beatrice.

Any and all additional off topic posts will be deleted without notice.

 

[drusi66]

If you go back and read my post, you'll see I used the verb 'wonder', because I've never seen pics of Caroline next to Paola or any other member of the Borromeo/Marzotto family at the last Rose Ball, and was wondering. If you have such a picture, please post it, so some of us will stop wondering, and bothering you. Or perhaps you're an insider and know it all, or maybe you're Mary Kate in desguise.

So if you are so knowledgeable, you should stop calling Beatrice a 'countess' or 'donna' she's neither. I also read that her father lost his title when marrying Marion Zota, a commoner. Besides, he owns only Islet San Giovanni, the other islands belonging to Prince Vitaliano Borromeo, Beatrice's cousin. Moreover there are a few places named after the Borromeos in Northern Italy, it doesn't mean that they still belong to that family: sometimes it's just a historical nameplace such as Peschiera Borromeo, a town near Milan, or the Villa Borrromeo in Arcore which is the seat of the local town council, which is also the current owner.

Dear Tosca, what I meant to say I said and I think I have been clear .
I'm not bothered by some comments, I just dont' agree and I said my opinion as others do .
I could be Mary Kate? What do you mean? What a nasty comment! I just say that I joined this forum 10 years ago, posted few comments with my nickname, no need to hide or play .
Thanks for the lesson on the Borromeo family but you come late sorry , I am well informed, no need of it . This is the reason why I never called Beatrice donna or countess since being born out of wedlock she is not entitled . Then I do not know what you mean, I just advise you to better verify your information.

Peace&love .

 

[cdm]

Pierre and Beatrice with Caroline and Alexandra and some other people on Lago Maggiore days before the Italian wedding.
Casiraghi Trio

 

[AdmirerUS]

Pierre and Beatrice with Caroline and Alexandra and some other people on Lago Maggiore days before the Italian wedding.
Casiraghi Trio

His hair was more than a few days longer at the wedding. It was medium curly gorge, IMHO.

 

[Honeybees]

Paris Match?

Thank you for posting the, is it Paris Match photographs of this wedding. They are lovely. I wish the newly weds well.

 

[Debbies]

I look forward to going back to italy on sunday to grab my copy of oggi... thanks for the link to the pictures. Thanks duc et pair for your response, i will look into the "graziati - succession " story more in detail as i do remember the accounts of that time

 

[moby]

Sorry if this has been discussed at some point in this thread but are there info on who the attendants were at the wedding? Or if there are even any? At the very least there had to have been a best man and a maid of honor, no?

Reason I'm curious is I haven't noticed whether Beatrice has a close circle of friends or known female BFF(s) the way Charlotte and especially Tatiana have. We always see her with just Pierre.

 

[Tilia C.]

Princess Alexandra of Hannover has been seen in a white dress and flowers in her hair. That must have been an attendant's outfit. But more is not known, sincer there weren't any pics of the bride walking to the altar.

 

[moby]

Ah yes! Also heard that Stavros Niarchos III was a groomsman, and that Andrea and Grandma Marzotto were witnesses.

 

[eya]

Ah yes! Also heard that Stavros Niarchos III was a groomsman, and that Andrea and Grandma Marzotto were witnesses.

Yes true. There are pictures of Pierre leaves out of the hotel along with the best men of the one of them was the Stavros Niarchos ( the more handsome).

Totally agree with you moby Amen to that.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

So if you are so knowledgeable, you should stop calling Beatrice a 'countess' or 'donna' she's neither.

Beatrice is a daughter of a nobleman and a noble lady to be it not in a legal union. As she is born outside marriage, she indeed does not inherit her father's title but for the rest she is very much a blueblooded lady with Borromeo and Marzotto ancestry.

Donna is traditionally used as a form of address for daughters or wives of nobles, although it is no longer a legal right under Italian law. As Beatrice is the daughter of a Borromeo and a Marzotto, she can be addressed as Donna Beatrice. Anyone will understand she is not "from the street". Come on, if even a Borromeo can not be called Donna, no one can. In fact any Italian lady can be called "Donna" anyway but that is seen as very archaïc.

 

[Rudolph]

I don't know Duc. In other threads you're always quick to point out when someone isn't 'noble'. For example in a thread on Lady Diana you disputed her royal credentials from the House of Stewart because she descends from an illegitimate line of Charles II.

Now you seem to be overlooking the facts to fit your own opinion of Beatrice.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I don't know Duc. In other threads you're always quick to point out when someone isn't 'noble'. For example in a thread on Lady Diana you disputed her royal credentials from the House of Stewart because she descends from an illegitimate line of Charles II.

Now you seem to be overlooking the facts to fit your own opinion of Beatrice.

You must be mistaken. I have never ever disputed Lady Diana's aristocratic ancestry. I wished Prince William had chosen a partner with at least the same background as his mother had.

But people calling someone "royal" because somewhere hip-hopping between paternal and maternal ancestors (in Diana's case via her grandmother Lady Cynthia Hamilton somewhere there is a far-away link with the Stuarts). The same can be said -by the way- about Camilla Shand and Sarah Ferguson, also these two have such links to the Stuarts.

When I possibly have played down "royal ancestry" then it is for this too theoretical and freely hop-hop-hopping from ancestor here to ancestor there to find a royal connection somewhere. Diana did not need that. She already had an impressive ancestry without any far-sought royal connections.

 

[fandesacs2003]

I think people in this thread and other also is mixing the technical acquisition of a title and the real high education . Also they give or not the titles according to their feelings to each person.
For me Béatrice may not "technically" be a countess but from her blood and education she is an aristocrat. She has been raised like this, she has always been moving to high level circles (moneywise and culture wise) she is a real aristocrat. Same way Zara Philips is, despite she does not bear any Royal title.
On the other side, a woman or man, coming from nowhere, without manners, education or any culture, just because a royal fell in love with this person and married it, this person technically became a royal but in reality she is not.

 

[Honeybees]

None of us, not even royalty choose our parents. This was the bride and grooms day and that is what this thread is about. I wish them well.

 

[Rudolph]

I think people in this thread and other also is mixing the technical acquisition of a title and the real education. Also the give or not the titles according to their feelings to each person.
For me Béatrice may not "technically" be a countess but from her blood and education she an aristocrat. She has been raised like this, she has always been moving to high level (moneywise and culture wise) she is a real aristocrat. Same way Zara Philips is, despite she does not any Royal title.
On the other side, a woman or man, coming from nowhere, without manners, education or any culture, just because a royal fell in love with this person and married it, this person technically became a royal but in reality she is not.

Beatrice being born out of wedlock isn't a mere technicality. Legitimacy means everything when it comes to nobility.

Beatrice's father may be a minor noble but as many Italian posters have pointed out, that doesn't apply to Beatrice herself.

Being born royal and having manners don't always go hand in hand. Ernest Hanover urinating on the Turkish Pavilion at the Expo 2000 event or beating a man with brass knuckles isn't very 'cultured'

I'm sure Beatrice is lovely, she is well educated and all the rest but so are many people.

As for Zara Philips, she is the first one to say she isn't royal.

 

[Rudolph]

My apologies. I didn't mean to turn this into a big deal. It was a lovely wedding and Beatrice and Pierre make a lovely couple. Their families should be proud.

 

[Honeybees]

My apologies. I didn't mean to turn this into a big deal. It was a lovely wedding and Beatrice and Pierre make a lovely couple. Their families should be proud.

Rudolph, please don't apologise. If I have said anything that in any way appeared to criticise what you were saying, forgive me.

 

[Rudolph]

Rudolph, please don't apologise. If I have said anything that in any way appeared to criticise what you were saying, forgive me.

Not at all. It was a lovely wedding and Beatrice looked beautiful.

 

[Honeybees]

Yes she did. They both looked wonderful and I am so pleased given the tragedy that he has faced that he has found happiness. His mothers, aunts and uncles relationship histories make him a very brave man. I hope that they continue to grow in love and remain this happy together.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The point fandesacs2003 made is clear. Not many ladies can claim to have direct links with the Borromeos, the Marzottis, the Agnellis, the Elkanns, the Casiraghis, the Grimaldis. Not many ladies can discuss with their partner: "Eeeermmmm.... what shall we do: your family's castle, or my family's castle?" Beatrice is not exactly "from the street", which can also be said about Pierre. And these extraordinary circumstances made that this wedding was very interesting for us. Technically noble yes/or no despite being born from two aristocratic parents.

 

[moby]

Just an observation but it's a tad unsettling how some people never fail to overemphasize the fact that the bride is born "out of wedlock." She isn't some illegitimate child hidden by anyone, she has a relationship not only with her father (presumably) but her legitimate half siblings and the whole clan of her father. I'm not familiar with Italian law but if it's like most countries in the Western world, there is no distinction between legitimate and illegitimate children unless there's a throne involved.

At the end of the day, she is Beatrice Borromeo, not Beatrice Marzotto. What is the fuss?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Just an observation but it's a tad unsettling how some people never fail to overemphasize the fact that the bride is born "out of wedlock." She isn't some illegitimate child hidden by anyone, she has a relationship not only with her father (presumably) but her legitimate half siblings and the whole clan of her father. I'm not familiar with Italian law but if it's like most countries in the Western world, there is no distinction between legitimate and illegitimate children unless there's a throne involved.

At the end of the day, she is Beatrice Borromeo, not Beatrice Marzotto. What is the fuss?

On itself there is still a distinction between children born into a legal union and children not born into a legal union. In the second case parents still have to take additional actions at the municipal register to register parenthood and so obtain parenthood rights.

In most European countries the term "extra-marital children" has been changed into "children who are into a family-relation with their parents" and "children who are not into a family-relation with their parents".

In some countries with a nobility regulated by Law, like the Netherlands, the Nobility Act has been modernized to this new legal understanding: a child from a titled father born out of a legal union can request recognition at the Court of Justice including the right to use the title and surname of the father. Was Donna Beatrice a Dutch citizen, she could have applied to be known as Countess Borromeo.

 

[Honeybees]

Duc perhaps it doesn't matter to the bride and groom? Perhaps to them getting married was about leaving the past behind and moving into a future together? The weddings were about a sacred union, a sign of commitment and optimism about a joint future?