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  #21  
Old 10-22-2015, 10:34 AM
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There is evidence that Baudouin and Fabiola considered adoption as well, but when the government advisers said the child wold be denied rights to ascend the throne, Baudouin and Fabiola (but I get the impression - personally - that it was more Baudouin) decided to nix that idea. There was talk it might be a refugee child from the Congo.
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  #22  
Old 10-22-2015, 10:53 AM
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An annulment would surely have been a very unpopular move with the Belgian people at the time. It would have been outragious if the king had proceeded with such an annulment. Although the Shah of Persia did divorce the empress Soraya in 1958, Belgium was no Persia. It seems that the couple came to terms with their childlesness, as many other couples in a simular situation do.
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  #23  
Old 10-22-2015, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by episcogal View Post
There is evidence that Baudouin and Fabiola considered adoption as well, but when the government advisers said the child wold be denied rights to ascend the throne, Baudouin and Fabiola (but I get the impression - personally - that it was more Baudouin) decided to nix that idea. There was talk it might be a refugee child from the Congo.
Perhaps in a situation such as an adopted child of Baudouin and Fabiola being denied rights to ascend the throne, the would be parents had the best interest of the child at heart.
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  #24  
Old 10-22-2015, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Perhaps in a situation such as an adopted child of Baudouin and Fabiola being denied rights to ascend the throne, the would be parents had the best interest of the child at heart.
That's exactly what I believe happened. Baudouin was not a very compromising man when his principles were concerned, and I believe it was said he was not willing to make a child feel as though they were in a lesser station based upon being denied rights to the throne.
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  #25  
Old 10-22-2015, 11:37 AM
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We have to thank the Prince and the Princess de Liege who had 2 of their 3 of her Children who should be potential great Heirs.

Philippe is now a great King and has 4 Children.

Amen.
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  #26  
Old 10-22-2015, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
An annulment would surely have been a very unpopular move with the Belgian people at the time. It would have been outragious if the king had proceeded with such an annulment. Although the Shah of Persia did divorce the empress Soraya in 1958, Belgium was no Persia. It seems that the couple came to terms with their childlesness, as many other couples in a simular situation do.
I think it was Soraya, who wanted the divorce. The Shak, in accordance with muslim tradition, would have been fine with just marrying a second wife, but that was unacceptable to Soraya. So the two case really can't be compared.

Also, the line of succession was secure because with Prince Albert's children. Although it is understandable that monarchs prefer to be succeeded by their own child, this is not necessary for the continuation of the monarchy.
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  #27  
Old 10-22-2015, 11:49 AM
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The denial of full rights to adopted chldren remains one of the great unaddressed injustices of our time... King Baudouin [if he did indeed not proceed with an adoption for that reason] showed, once again that he was a man of enormous principal, and foresight, at no small personal cost to him and his beloved wife.
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  #28  
Old 10-22-2015, 08:11 PM
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There was no chromosomal or Rh anomaly. According to the late Queen's biographer Guy Michelland (La Reine Blanche) Fabiola suffered from a malformed uterus and ovaries. Any pregnancy would have only about a 20% chance of going to term and she herself would have had only a 10% chance of surviving it according to her Swiss obstetrician. Indeed, she came close to death during at least two of her five doomed pregnancies.

A cruel fate for this warm, imaginative woman who so adored children and who would have made such a fantastic mother.

The fact that she knew the odds were against her and kept trying to provide her husband and the country with heirs says a lot about her determination and courage, imo.
I will be crucified for this question - why...if she knew this, why would a devout, pious woman do this to an unborn life and jeopardize her own life? Determination and courage? Maybe her thoughts on the subject, but I actually do not understand that line of thinking. She was human though, but just somewhat selfish on her (and her husband's) part.
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  #29  
Old 10-22-2015, 08:29 PM
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I will be crucified for this question - why...if she knew this, why would a devout, pious woman do this to an unborn life and jeopardize her own life? Determination and courage? Maybe her thoughts on the subject, but I actually do not understand that line of thinking. She was human though, but just somewhat selfish on her (and her husband's) part.
I thought it was after her 5th miscarriage is when Fabiola found out she had an abnormal uterus.
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  #30  
Old 10-22-2015, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Perhaps in a situation such as an adopted child of Baudouin and Fabiola being denied rights to ascend the throne, the would be parents had the best interest of the child at heart.
An adopted child could never have succession rights as the Belgian constitution says that only legitimate descendants of Leopold I of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha can ascend the throne. Baudouin of course would know that .
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  #31  
Old 10-22-2015, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
I will be crucified for this question - why...if she knew this, why would a devout, pious woman do this to an unborn life and jeopardize her own life? Determination and courage? Maybe her thoughts on the subject, but I actually do not understand that line of thinking. She was human though, but just somewhat selfish on her (and her husband's) part.
We have to remember also what it was like for devout Catholic women during the time period that Fabiola would have gotten pregnant and miscarried in. It was an explicit no no to take any form of birth control and I don't think it would have crossed her mind to even think of any alternative solutions to avoid future pregnancies.

In fact, the first oral contraceptive was created by a Belgian and according to this information, it was first introduced in Belgium in 1965. Regardless of this breakthrough though, I don't think Fabiola would go against her religious beliefs for any reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nand_Peeters
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  #32  
Old 10-22-2015, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tilia C. View Post
I think it was Soraya, who wanted the divorce. The Shak, in accordance with muslim tradition, would have been fine with just marrying a second wife, but that was unacceptable to Soraya. So the two case really can't be compared.

Also, the line of succession was secure because with Prince Albert's children. Although it is understandable that monarchs prefer to be succeeded by their own child, this is not necessary for the continuation of the monarchy.
Indeed, there are plenty of examples of monarchs who were not succeeded by their children, especially in the past when women could not succeed and medical care was primitive by modern standards.
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  #33  
Old 10-22-2015, 08:57 PM
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I will be crucified for this question - why...if she knew this, why would a devout, pious woman do this to an unborn life and jeopardize her own life? Determination and courage? Maybe her thoughts on the subject, but I actually do not understand that line of thinking. She was human though, but just somewhat selfish on her (and her husband's) part.
First of all, she was a Queen and, in a way, she had a duty to try to produce an heir. Second, I'm not an expert in religious ethics, but I would be very surprised if trying to have a child were considered sinful by the Catholic Church or considered a way of intentionally putting another life in risk.
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  #34  
Old 10-22-2015, 09:19 PM
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I thought it was after her 5th miscarriage is when Fabiola found out she had an abnormal uterus.
That actually restores my faith in her as a devout Catholic. As medical technology was not that advanced in the 60's, this bit of info makes perfect sense..if only technology would have been advanced enough for her not endure such tragedy...really I feel sad for her.
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  #35  
Old 10-22-2015, 09:43 PM
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That actually restores my faith in her as a devout Catholic. As medical technology was not that advanced in the 60's, this bit of info makes perfect sense..if only technology would have been advanced enough for her not endure such tragedy...really I feel sad for her.
For me, their story is so bitter sweet - a true love story - not just all good. It had triumph and tragedy and all wrapped up in two humble and devout people who loved their country.

This about wraps it up as to whether they loved each other
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  #36  
Old 10-22-2015, 09:47 PM
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That actually restores my faith in her as a devout Catholic. As medical technology was not that advanced in the 60's, this bit of info makes perfect sense..if only technology would have been advanced enough for her not endure such tragedy...really I feel sad for her.
I am not speaking of birth control, but an ultrasound performed to diagnose the abnormality of her uterus and then a hysterectomy done to avoid any further tragic miscarriages.
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  #37  
Old 10-22-2015, 10:14 PM
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I am not speaking of birth control, but an ultrasound performed to diagnose the abnormality of her uterus and then a hysterectomy done to avoid any further tragic miscarriages.
Although ultrasound was first used in 1956, it wasn't common to be used in OB/GYN medicine until later. I had all 3 of my kids in the 70s and didn't have an ultrasound with any of them. Its most likely that ultrasounds were not readily available at the time Fabiola became pregnant and subsequently miscarried.

To this day, the Roman Catholic Church still has strict guidelines on what is allowed and not allowed in these matters too.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...lation_en.html

Its amazing to think how in such a short span of time (at least to me) how far medical science has advanced.
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  #38  
Old 10-22-2015, 10:52 PM
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Don't know about his step-mother but I'm sure he did love Fabiola. Didn't she tried to convince him to get an annulment so that he could marry again and have a heir but Baudouin categorically refused? If that's not a sign ot true love...
Yes, this same biographer(Michelland) reports that Fabiola urged her husband to apply to the Vatican Rota for an annulment of their marriage after the premature birth of a baby girl, stillborn in 1966. Baudouin refused to even consider it, even though I don't think the Holy See would have denied him an annulment if he had really wanted one.

The entire situation for them was one of profound sadness. Paul Belien, author of "A Throne for Brussels", writes that each of Fabiola's pregnancies was a "personal Calvary" for her because word would always spread that she was expecting again and each time tons of gifts and congratulatory telegrams would arrive at Laeken from all over Belgium and Europe...then she would lose the baby.

The uterine malformation was not discovered until Fabiola went secretly to Switzerland for painful and risky fertility treatments in late 1967. These treatments helped her conceive her final pregnancy, which she of course miscarried. Before the Swiss gynecologists made the definitive, doomed assessment of her condition in 1968, she had no idea about why she couldn't have a baby so I disagree 100% that she was being selfish. She was desperate to fulfill her duty and became a bit obsessed imo...imposing harsh penances on herself and visiting places purported to have miraculous fertility effects...shades of Russia's last Empress Alexandra Feodorovna.(Paul Belien, A Throne for Brussels/Guy Michelland, La Reine Blanche)

Thank God poor Fabiola had no RASPUTIN whispering in her ear at Laeken Palace!

Periodicals and tabloids like Jours de France, Paris Match, and Point de Vue were constantly speculating that the marriage was over..that Fabiola would retire to a Spanish convent and that Baudouin would take a new wife.

Instead the couple drew even closer and more devoted to one another.

ETA: The Royal couple did briefly consider adoption in the late 1960's after Fabiola's final miscarriage in Feb 1968. The understanding was that the child would not have been in the line of Succession, and that the then eight year old Philippe Duc de Brabant was still going to be the "official" heir.

For reasons I am not sure of, they were discouraged from adoption by certain of the king's advisors.
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  #39  
Old 10-22-2015, 11:07 PM
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I am not speaking of birth control, but an ultrasound performed to diagnose the abnormality of her uterus and then a hysterectomy done to avoid any further tragic miscarriages.
Wow, I'm surprised that a hysterectomy would seem to be a good solution here for any reason, but then I saw the link that Osipi posted and was a bit surprised to find out that the Catholic Church still technically doesn't approve of things like tubal ligation (then I remembered that I know someone who got stuck in a bad situation because of that rule). I feel so sad for Fabiola and the fact that she wasn't able to have a child (as I do for anyone who has to deal with that), but also because of all she had to deal with due to the fact that she was royal (e.g. even adoption would be difficult in such a situation).
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  #40  
Old 10-22-2015, 11:58 PM
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Wow, I'm surprised that a hysterectomy would seem to be a good solution here for any reason, but then I saw the link that Osipi posted and was a bit surprised to find out that the Catholic Church still technically doesn't approve of things like tubal ligation (then I remembered that I know someone who got stuck in a bad situation because of that rule). I feel so sad for Fabiola and the fact that she wasn't able to have a child (as I do for anyone who has to deal with that), but also because of all she had to deal with due to the fact that she was royal (e.g. even adoption would be difficult in such a situation).
I do not speak for the BRF, but a hysterectomy was more than likely performed after her condition was realized by Dr's, no birth control would put her life and any future pregnancy at risk yet again. To me that had to be reason she was never with child again after her condition was realized. This scenario to me is the reason, no other one would explain why she never conceived again.
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