Titles of the Belgian Royal Family 1: Ending Aug.2023

[Tatiana Maria]

I agree. It seems they were not seldom described as the Saxe-Coburgs after the renunciation of 1921, perhaps because, unlike the British cousins, they never changed to a substitute house name.

Prior to 1991, all legitimate agnatic descendants of King Leopold I were princes of Belgium and their respective wives automatically became princesses of Belgium. Thus, Paola became a princess of Belgium upon marrying Albert and holds that title for life.

Indeed, this was the case from 1891 to 1991. Previous to 1891, the territorial designation "of Belgium" was informal, and the royal princes who did not hold dynastic titles (Duke of Brabant or Count of Flanders), and the unmarried royal princesses, were legally "HRH Princess Clémentine Albertine Marie Léopoldine, Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha".

 

[Mbruno]

"de Belgique/van Belgie" is indeed a title, but at the same time it has become a family name over the years. The family name of the Belgian Royal Family is "Saxe-Coburg and Gotha", but just like their British cousins, they decided to cut any possible German connection after the First World War.
As for Queen Paola's titles, I think the distinction was made as she's Queen by marriage, sharing her husband's title, while the Princess title is something that she acquired on her own right (same as Mathilde and Claire, who were made Princesses of Belgium prior to their wedding).

The issue of titles of Queen consorts is a tricky one. In Spain, for example, the royal decree that regulates the titles of the Royal Family says that the holder of the Crown is called "Rey de España" or "Reina de España", but it explicitly says in the sequel that the title of the wife of the "Rey de España" is simply "Reina". Therefore, it is clear that Letizia for example is entitled to be called Queen, but cannot be legally called Queen of Spain.

By contrast, in Sweden, where there is no explicit legal regulation of royal titles, we have to go by the official list of names and titles of members of the Royal House that is published by the Royal Court. On that list, Queen Silvia's title is listed after her name as "Sveriges drottning", which has always been the title that wives of the Bernadotte kings of Sweden have held. So, at least de facto if not de jure, Queen Silvia may be called Queen of Sweden.

In Belgium, on the other hand,both Paola and Mathilde are legally entitled to the title of Princess of Belgium, respectively under the royal decrees of 1891 ( as amended in 1991 and 2015) and of 1998. However, there is no royal decree or any other provision allowing them to use the title "Reine des Belges" and, based on a principle of law, if the title has never been given to them, then they don't hold it. The confusion seems to arise though from the fact that, in the past, former consorts of Kings of the Belgians were called Queen of the Belgians in public documents, e.g. Louise d'Orleáns on her children's birth certificates.

Going back to Anna Astrid, Tatiana Maria correctly pointed out that the 2015 royal decree seems to imply a genealogical definitiion of all direct descendants of Leopold I as princes or princesses. Therefore, I suppose it is Ok for Anna Astrid to be called Princess [names] [family name]. However, she cannot be called Princess of Belgium and, moreover, she doesn't have the predicate SAR (i,e HRH) in Belgium, no matter what her titles of pretense in Austria are.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Going back to Anna Astrid, Tatiana Maria correctly pointed out that the 2015 royal decree seems to imply a genealogical definitiion of all direct descendants of Leopold I as princes or princesses. Therefore, I suppose it is Ok for Anna Astrid to be called Princess [names] [family name]. However, she cannot be called Princess of Belgium and, moreover, she doesn't have the predicate SAR (i,e HRH) in Belgium, no matter what her titles of pretense in Austria are.

While I believe the 2015 royal decree is clear that direct descendants of King Leopold I may be Princes(ses) without the title Prince(ss) of Belgium, which of his descendants is not clear:

"Art. 4. The Princes and Princesses, in direct descent from His Majesty Leopold of Saxe-Coburg, who are not mentioned in articles 1-3, carry after their first name, and their family name if they carry it, the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to." [Articles 1-3 deal with the title Prince(ss) of Belgium.]

Because the Palace spokesman confirmed that Anna Astrid enjoys the title of Princess but "may assume other titles in due course", and in her birth certificate she was documented as Princess and Archduchess, one can assume the other legitimate children of Astrid's and Laurent's sons will be equally Princes(ses), granted that Astrid's sons' children may decide to be known by the title of Archduchess (Archduke).

It is still unclear whether the children of Astrid's and Laurent's daughters or the children of an unmarried Prince of Belgium will be Princes(ses).


12 NOVEMBRE 2015. - Arrêté royal relatif à l'octroi du titre de Prince ou Princesse de Belgique
Princess Anna Astrid: Brussels Prince Amedeo and Elisabetta Welcome Baby
Quel nom pour les princes qui ne seront plus «de Belgique»?

[Gabriel, Emmanuel, and Eléonore's] children will be Prince/ss of Belgium even if the parents marry without permission; the royal decree does not even require that the parents be married.

But inasmuch as it says "the Princes and Princesses, children and grandchildren, […] carry the title of Prince or Princess of Belgium […]", it implies that the titles of Prince of Belgium and Princess of Belgium are passed to Princes and Princesses only.

 

[Countessmeout]

How would a prince of Belgium not be a prince

The law simply states that the title Prince/princess of Belgium is only bestowed on the children or grandchildren of the king or queen. Meaning all grandchildren, male or female. All Alberts grandkids were prince or princess of Belgium. All of Philippes grandchildren will be. But great grandchildren are not entitled.

Anna astrid is a princess. She is a princess inspite of the Belgian decree. In Belgium she is a princess in such that they recognize her title. Like if prince William went to Belgium, they would recognize him as a prince.

Anna has no Belgian title. If her grandfather was a commoner, she would have no title. But Amadeus has titles from both his parents. And unlike his Belgian titles, his Austrian titles are passed on. Yes she is a princess, but not in any way of Belgium or by their decree.

Her title is

Her imperial and royal highness archduchess Anna astrid of Austria-este, princess of Modena.


As for the children's his sisters it doesn't stand to be seen. Unless they marry men with titles, three children will have none. The Austrian titles do not pass in the female line. Anna has it, like the York girls in the Uk because she is a male line granddaughter.


In as such, all Laurent and Claire's grandchildren will not have a title, as they have none to inherit from their mother. I guess their daughter could marry a title so her kids could.

 

[duke of poliganc]

How would a prince of Belgium not be a prince

The law simply states that the title Prince/princess of Belgium is only bestowed on the children or grandchildren of the king or queen. Meaning all grandchildren, male or female. All Alberts grandkids were prince or princess of Belgium. All of Philippes grandchildren will be. But great grandchildren are not entitled.

i believe people are here thinking about a situation like in netherland and luxembourg etc . Prince/ss of Orange-Nassau or Prince/ss of Nassau and not prince/ss of netherland or luxembourg .

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Yes, Anna is no Princess of Belgium but definitely an Archduchess of Austria-Este and the whole rambam.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Countessmeout: Please re-read the royal decree and the articles which I posted.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f29/titles-of-the-belgian-royal-family-38975-9.html#post1954150


Nowhere is there a statement that descendants who are not Princes(ses) of Belgium (Astrid's and Laurent's grandchildren) will have no Belgian royal title.

Articles 1-3 of the decree deal with the title Prince(ss) of Belgium.
Article 4 states: "The Princes and Princesses, in direct descent from His Majesty Leopold of Saxe-Coburg, who are not mentioned in articles 1-3, carry after their first name, and their family name if they carry it, the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to."

Supposing that King Philippe decided the descendants "not mentioned in articles 1-3" (not Princes(ses) of Belgium) would have no Belgian royal title, why would article 4 be in the decree, and who would be "the Princes and Princesses" in article 4?


Additionally, Belgian media that talked to the Palace after the Royal Decree reported that (some of?) Astrid's and Laurent's grandchildren will be Princes(ses) even though they will not be Princes(ses) of Belgium.


If the spokesman who confirmed the title of Princess had been recognizing Anna Astrid's titles of pretense (Princess of Austria, Princess of Hungary, etc.), I don't think he would have added that "she may assume other titles in due course".

Her title is
Her imperial and royal highness archduchess Anna astrid of Austria-este, princess of Modena.

The title on her birth certificate is HI&RH Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este.

A la rubrique « nom et prénoms », son acte de naissance porte en effet, comme nous avons pu le voir : « Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d’Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine) ».

 

[eya]

The royal family is again called Saxe-Coburg: why is it soon the end of "Belgium"?

"Change of size for members of the Belgian royal family. They were once again called Saxe-Coburg, their former German title, which they were able to transmit to the descendants, who could no longer be called "de Belgique". Here are the details and explanations of our journalist and cameraman Thibaut Balthazar and Eric Poncelet.

England, Portugal, Bulgaria, Belgium ... The name Saxe-Coburg is rooted in many European royal families. This title, very widespread in the 19th century, was desecrated in the 20th century, victim of history. "The family of Coburg is a German family, and thus during the First World War Germany declares war on Coburgs who are placed on other thrones, such as Georges V in England or Albert I in Belgium, so it is inconceivable to have a German name when fighting against Germany, "explains Patrick Weber, a specialist in the royal family.

In 1921, the one who was nicknamed the King Chevalier decides therefore not to display the name Saxe-Cobourg, with German connotation. He will no longer be associated with his estate until today. Indeed, the discovery of the social book of 2017, all the descendants of King Albert I recovered the title, except the children of the princess, who take the name of their father, the Archduke of Austria-Este. "The very name Saxe-Coburg comes from one side of the Saxony family, a large German family that has spread throughout the empire and then the name of Coburg which is really a younger and collateral branch of the family of Saxony , Which has a direct reference to the territory on which it reigned, that is to say the city of Cobourg "adds Patrick Weber.

Behind this return of the noble title of Saxe-Coburg, hides the political will to limit the use of the title "prince of Belgium". Following a decree, only Princess Elisabeth will be able to pass on the title to her first child, the alternative for the other little children of King Philip and Prince Laurent will be to be called Saxe-Coburg."

La famille royale s'appelle à nouveau Saxe-Cobourg: pourquoi est-ce bientôt la fin des "de Belgique"? - RTL Info

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is a good idea. Children of the King and the Heir are Prince (Princess) of Belgium. Other descendants in the male lineage are Prince (Princess) von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha.

This is similar with the Netherlands (graaf/gravin van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg), Luxembourg (prince/princesse de Nassau) and Denmark (greve/komtesse de Monpezat) for the ones not in the direct line of succession.

By doing so the title prince of Belgium (of the Netherlands, of Luxembourg, of Denmark) correspond with a close connection to the person of the Sovereign. So a good idea indeed.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The article is about the yearbook Le Carnet Mondain. Last week Le Soir stated that in the current edition, all of the royal descendants of King Leopold I have gained the titles of "Duchess/Duke of Saxony, Prince/ss of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" - exempting Princess Astrid's descendants and the late King Albert I (the king who renounced the German titles in 1921).
Their wives and husbands do not carry these titles.
The daughter of Prince Amedeo of Belgium is styled "Princess Anna Astrid" with no surname or further titles.
Le Carnet Mondain states that this information was presented to them by the royal palace.

Behind this return of the noble title of Saxe-Coburg, hides the political will to limit the use of the title "prince of Belgium". Following a decree, only Princess Elisabeth will be able to pass on the title to her first child, the alternative for the other little children of King Philip and Prince Laurent will be to be called Saxe-Coburg.

"Little children" (petits enfants) ought to be translated as "grandchildren", and given that the decree of November 12, 2015 remains untouched, only the grandchildren of Laurent will need the surname of Saxe-Coburg. In the present condition, the Princes and Princesses who are children or grandchildren of King Philippe or Crown Princess Elisabeth will be Princes and Princesses of Belgium (Article 1).

Artikel 1. In de openbare en private akten die hen aanbelangen, voeren de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Koning, evenals de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Kroonprins of de Kroonprinses, de titel van Prins of Prinses van België volgend op hun voornaam en voor zover ze die voeren, hun familienaam en hun dynastieke titel, en voor de andere titels die hun rechtens hun ascendentie toekomen. Hun voornaam wordt voorafgegaan door het predicaat Zijne of Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid. Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

 

[Marengo]

Thanks for posting the additional information. A sensible move from the palace to make sure there will not be dozens of princes of Belgium in a few years. It seems that the grandchildren of Laurent will be princes of Saxe-Coburg.

All grandchildren of the king and queen will all be princes of Belgium under these new rules, if I understand the text correctly?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

^^^ Yes, they will be Princes(ses) of Belgium under the rules of the Royal Decree of November 12, 2015, which have not been revised. Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The article is about the yearbook Le Carnet Mondain. Last week Le Soir stated that in the current edition, all of the royal descendants of King Leopold I have gained the titles of "Duchess/Duke of Saxony, Prince/ss of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" - exempting Princess Astrid's descendants and the late King Albert I (the king who renounced the German titles in 1921).
Their wives and husbands do not carry these titles.
The daughter of Prince Amedeo of Belgium is styled "Princess Anna Astrid" with no surname or further titles.
Le Carnet Mondain states that this information was presented to them by the royal palace.

Articles 1-3 of the decree [of 2015] deal with the title Prince(ss) of Belgium.
Article 4 states: "The Princes and Princesses, in direct descent from His Majesty Leopold of Saxe-Coburg, who are not mentioned in articles 1-3, carry after their first name, and their family name if they carry it, the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to."

The spokesperson of the royal palace confirmed to Le Soir that the Saxony titles are covered by the expression "the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to", appearing in articles 1-4 of the royal decree of 2015.
The statement clarifies why the spouses did not obtain the titles, as the royal decree of 2015 applied only to descendants of Leopold I.

12 NOVEMBER 2015. - Koninklijk besluit betreffende de verlening van de titel van Prins of Prinses van België

How would a prince of Belgium not be a prince

I was trying to say that the royal decree of 2015 does not expressly reserve the title Prince(ss) of Belgium for legitimate children and legitimate grandchildren, but it may imply that a child or grandchild who is not already a Prince(ss) cannot become a Prince(ss) of Belgium.

Artikel 1. In de openbare en private akten die hen aanbelangen, voeren de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Koning, evenals de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Kroonprins of de Kroonprinses, de titel van Prins of Prinses van België [...]

The card which was signed by Princess Astrid's adviser Jan Matthysen on the occasion of Prince Amedeo and Lili Rosboch's first wedding anniversary said:
"His Royal Highness Prince Amedeo and Princess Elisabetta".

The card signed by Mr. Matthysen on the occasion of the couple's second wedding anniversary said:
"Their Royal Highnesses Prince and Princess Amedeo of Belgium".

koninklijkepost.punt.nl

"His" in the first card could be a mistake, or it could indicate that Elisabetta can be addressed as "HRH Princess Amedeo of Belgium" or as "Princess Elisabetta", but should not be addressed as "HRH Princess Elisabetta" or "Princess Elisabetta of Belgium".

 

[Mbruno]

The spokesperson of the royal palace confirmed to Le Soir that the Saxony titles are covered by the expression "the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to", appearing in articles 1-4 of the royal decree of 2015.
The statement clarifies why the spouses did not obtain the titles, as the royal decree of 2015 applied only to descendants of Leopold I.

12 NOVEMBER 2015. - Koninklijk besluit betreffende de verlening van de titel van Prins of Prinses van België


U


I was trying to say that the royal decree of 2015 does not expressly reserve the title Prince(ss) of Belgium for legitimate children and legitimate grandchildren, but it may imply that a child or grandchild who is not already a Prince(ss) cannot become a Prince(ss) of Belgium.





The card which was signed by Princess Astrid's adviser Jan Matthysen on the occasion of Prince Amedeo and Lili Rosboch's first wedding anniversary said:
"His Royal Highness Prince Amedeo and Princess Elisabetta".

The card signed by Mr. Matthysen on the occasion of the couple's second wedding anniversary said:
"Their Royal Highnesses Prince and Princess Amedeo of Belgium".

koninklijkepost.punt.nl

"His" in the first card could be a mistake, or it could indicate that Elisabetta can be addressed as "HRH Princess Amedeo of Belgium" or as "Princess Elisabetta", but should not be addressed as "HRH Princess Elisabetta" or "Princess Elisabetta of Belgium".

The news about the 2017 edition of the Carnet is confusing. Are Gabriel, Emmanuel and Éleonore now using Saxe-Cobourg as family name, i.e before their titles of prince or princess of Belgium ? Or do they continue not to use a family name and are only using their German titles as family titles after their titles of prince/ princess of Belgium ? What about Elisabeth ?

 

[Mbruno]

The spokesperson of the royal palace confirmed to Le Soir that the Saxony titles are covered by the expression "the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to", appearing in articles 1-4 of the royal decree of 2015.
The statement clarifies why the spouses did not obtain the titles, as the royal decree of 2015 applied only to descendants of Leopold I.

Personally, I don't think they have the right to use the Saxony titles based on their ancestry because those titles became extinct when Germany became a republic. I think they have the right though to use "prinz von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha" as a family name, as one would use nowadays in Germany.

Going back to my previous post, allow me to rephrase my question to make it clearer.

Albert , Laurent and Philippe, in all legal documents I have seen so far (royal decrees, marriage certificates, etc.) never used a family name. They are always referred to by their style (HM or HRH) followed by King/Prince, their given names (e.g. Philippe Léopold Louis Marie), their dynastic titles (e.g. King of the Belgians or Duke of Brabant), and then their title of Prince of Belgium. The 2015 royal decree says that a family name may be used between the given names and the dynastic titles, or , in the absence of the latter, between the given names and the title of Prince/Princess of Belgium, but only as long as the person bears a family name, as was the case of Mathilde, who is referred to in the royal decree who made her a Grand Cordon of the Order of Léopold as:

Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Mathilde Marie Christine Ghislaine comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique.

Are Philippe's younger children now using Saxe-Cobourg as a family name, as their mother uses comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz and as Le Soir is implying, or do they continue to go only by SAR le/la Prince/Princesse [prénom], Prince/Princesse de Belgique ?If the latter, do they now use their Saxony titles after Prince/Princesse de Belgique (in accordance with the terms of the 2015 decree), even though those titles no longer exist legally in Germany ?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Personally, I don't think they have the right to use the Saxony titles based on their ancestry because those titles became extinct when Germany became a republic. I think they have the right though to use "prinz von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha" as a family name, as one would use nowadays in Germany.

I agree with you. I suspect that King Philippe intended to avert the sense that he awarded new titles and surnames to the members of his own family.

Going back to my previous post, allow me to rephrase my question to make it clearer.

Albert , Laurent and Philippe, in all legal documents I have seen so far (royal decrees, marriage certificates, etc.) never used a family name. They are always referred to by their style (HM or HRH) followed by King/Prince, their given names (e.g. Philippe Léopold Louis Marie), their dynastic titles (e.g. King of the Belgians or Duke of Brabant), and then their title of Prince of Belgium. The 2015 royal decree says that a family name may be used between the given names and the dynastic titles, or , in the absence of the latter, between the given names and the title of Prince/Princess of Belgium, but only as long as the person bears a family name, as was the case of Mathilde, who is referred to in the royal decree who made her a Grand Cordon of the Order of Léopold as:

Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Mathilde Marie Christine Ghislaine comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique.

Are Philippe's younger children now using Saxe-Cobourg as a family name, as their mother uses comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz and as Le Soir is implying, or do they continue to go only by SAR le/la Prince/Princesse [prénom], Prince/Princesse de Belgique ?If the latter, do they now use their Saxony titles after Prince/Princesse de Belgique (in accordance with the terms of the 2015 decree), even though those titles no longer exist legally in Germany ?

I did not acquire the 2017 Carnet Mondain, but Le Soir's recapitulation did not imply a disparity between Elisabeth and her siblings on this subject. It simply says that in the 2017 edition, all of the members of the royal family, exempting Princess Astrid's descendants and the late King Albert I, have gained the titles of "Duchess/Duke of Saxony, Prince/ss of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha".

Per Belgian nobiliary law, there is a disconnect between surnames ("d'Udekem d'Acoz" or "of Austria-Este") and titles of nobility ("Countess" or "Archduke"). (Please see this post.)

However, formalities notwithstanding, the princes(ses) consort whose family names were in practice connected to a title have adjoined their family names to their titles in Royal Decrees:

"La Princesse Mathilde, Marie, Christine, Ghislaine, Comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique"
Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

"Le Prince Lorenz, Otto, Carl, Amedeus, Prince de Belgique, Archiduc d'Autriche-Este"
Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

When the family name was unconnected to a title, princesses consort adjoined their family names to their first names.

"La Princesse Claire Coombs, Princesse de Belgique"
Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

Based on this precedent, I suppose the long title of Princess Elisabeth and her siblings would be "Her Royal Highness Princess Elisabeth, Duchess of Brabant, Princess of Belgium, Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha", not "Her Royal Highness Princess Elisabeth of Saxe-Coburg, Duchess of Brabant (etc)", as the surname "of Saxe(-Coburg)(-Gotha)" is connected (I assume) to the titles Duchess and Princess.

Nevertheless, as you pointed out, the 2015 royal decree says that even children and grandchildren of King Albert II (Art. 2) and daughters(-in-law) of Princess Lilian (Art. 3.) may or may not use a family name disconnected from their titles and adjoined to their first name. I cannot comprehend the reasons for this.

 

[Vizier]

Titles for Laurent's Eventual Grandchildren?

The King issued a decree a few years ago limiting the titles of Prince and Princess to children and grandchildren of a monarch. Princess Astrid's male-line descendants will be Archdukes/duchesses of Austria, but it would seem that Laurent's eventual grandchildren and their descendants will have no titles at all. He doesn't have any lesser title that some or all might inherit.

This is not the greatest issue facing humanity, I concede. But is there any plan to address this issue?

 

[An Ard Ri]

I doubt it seeing as Albert II abolished other titles associated with the Crown such as Count of Flanders/of Hainaut and Prince of Liège in 2001 .

Had he granted Laurent a Countdom perhaps his future grandchildren might have been styled 'Count X' in the male line?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The King issued a decree a few years ago limiting the titles of Prince and Princess to children and grandchildren of a monarch. Princess Astrid's male-line descendants will be Archdukes/duchesses of Austria, but it would seem that Laurent's eventual grandchildren and their descendants will have no titles at all. He doesn't have any lesser title that some or all might inherit.

This is not the greatest issue facing humanity, I concede. But is there any plan to address this issue?

There are dormant titles: Prinz von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, Herzog von Sachsen. Look at Luxembourg: Grand-Duke Jean decided no longer to use the title Prince de Bourbon de Parme. The title became dormant but it is not removed. Proof: in the juridical paperwork around the divorce of Louis and Tessy his full titles were mentioned: Prince de Luxembourg, Prince de Nassau, Prince de Bourbon de Parme.

Belgium has plenty of Princes: De Ligne, De Merode, Arenberg, Croy, Lobkowicz, etc. I fail to see why a Belgian branch De Saxe-Cobourg et Gotha can not be established. In Belgium the King has far more possibilities on noble titles than for example his Swedish or Norwegian colleagues.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The words of the decree of November 12, 2015 make it clear that it did not limit the titles of Prince and Princess. The title of Prince and Princess of Belgium was the only title limited by the decree.

See the decree at:
Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad


Princess Astrid's granddaughter has the official style of Princess Anna Astrid, not Archduchess, and I presume that will be the case for the grandchildren of Prince Laurent.

I have written summaries of the Palace's statements concerning titles in these posts:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f29/titles-of-the-belgian-royal-family-38975-9.html#post1920463
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...elgian-royal-family-38975-10.html#post1982888
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f29/titles-of-the-belgian-royal-family-38975-9.html#post1954150
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...elgian-royal-family-38975-10.html#post1954205

There are dormant titles: Prinz von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, Herzog von Sachsen.

The usage of the titles has been restored by the decree in 2015 for the descendants of King Leopold I in male line, ostensibly with retroactive workings. http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...elgian-royal-family-38975-10.html#post1982888

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is Aartshertogin Anna-Astrid van Oostenrijk-Este, l'Archiduchesse Anna-Astrid d'Autriche-Este, Erzherzogin Anna-Astrid von Österreich-Este.

Yes, she can be a Princess, as she has a whole fleet of Austrian-Hungarian and Italian titles as well, but, look for it: you will see Anna-Astrid referred with her father's primary (non-Belgian) title.

A title is always granted in combination with a surname. It is not possible to be a prince or princess without surname. When Anna-Astrid is a "Princess of Austria-Este" then this is a new title and surname which needs to be decreed by Royal Decree and published in the State Gazette. For so far I can see this has not happened, so by general civic law Anna-Astrid has her father's titles and surname minus the title "Prince of Belgium" as specifically decreed by the King.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

It is Aartshertogin Anna-Astrid van Oostenrijk-Este, l'Archiduchesse Anna-Astrid d'Autriche-Este, Erzherzogin Anna-Astrid von Österreich-Este.

It is actually "Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" in Anna Astrid's official (Belgian) birth certificate.

"A la rubrique « nom et prénoms », son acte de naissance porte en effet, comme nous avons pu le voir : « Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d’Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine) »."
http://plus.lesoir.be/53935/article...ur-les-princes-qui-ne-seront-plus-de-belgique

Yes, she can be a Princess, as she has a whole fleet of Austrian-Hungarian and Italian titles as well, but, look for it: you will see Anna-Astrid referred with her father's primary (non-Belgian) title.

Anna Astrid is never referred to with the Archduchess title. She is referred to as "Princess Anna Astrid" in the communiqué released by the Palace to Place Royale, in the comments from the spokesperson of the King, in the birthday card signed by Princess Astrid's Household, in the information given by the Palace to the yearbook Le Carnet Mondain.

(Edited) Here is the card, and you will find the other links in these posts.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ly-general-questions-26425-5.html#post1943583
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f29/titles-of-the-belgian-royal-family-38975-9.html#post1920463
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...elgian-royal-family-38975-10.html#post1982888

A title is always granted in combination with a surname. It is not possible to be a prince or princess without surname. When Anna-Astrid is a "Princess of Austria-Este" then this is a new title and surname which needs to be decreed by Royal Decree and published in the State Gazette. For so far I can see this has not happened, so by general civic law Anna-Astrid has her father's titles and surname minus the title "Prince of Belgium" as specifically decreed by the King.

Anna Astrid has not been granted any new title or surname personally. The surname appearing on her birth certificate is the very same as the surname appearing on her father's: "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)."

Her birth certificate illustrates that, by right of birth, she is a Princess holding the secondary title Archduchess and surname "of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)".

As you say: She has her father's titles and surname minus the title "Prince of Belgium".

Prince Amedeo, Prince of Belgium, Archduke of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)
Princess Anna Astrid, Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)

 

[Somebody]

Hmm, still it is weird that she is a princess without a designation. The only reasonable explanation seems to be that she is a 'princess of Hungary' (as part of her father's many titles).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Hmm, still it is weird that she is a princess without a designation.

It is a reversion to pre-1891 rules.

Before the Royal Decree in 1891, all of the royal Belgian princes and princesses were without a designation.

The report accompanying the Royal Decree stated that the princes and princesses were not called "of Belgium" in Belgium, unlike in foreign countries, where they were referred to by the name "of Belgium".

When Prince Baudouin died in January 1891, there was discomfort with his death certificate because there was no "of Belgium" or characteristically Belgian title on it (while his Saxony titles were recognized on Belgian documents).

The Royal Decree of March 14, 1891 resolved the problem by granting the title of Prince/Princess of Belgium to all of the Princes and Princesses who were in direct male line descent from King Léopold I.

Royal Titles in Belgium - Titres Royaux en Belgique

The only reasonable explanation seems to be that she is a 'princess of Hungary' (as part of her father's many titles).

That could be, albeit the Royal Decree of November 12, 2015 means that at least a fraction of the descendants without the title Prince/Princess of Belgium remain entitled to be Prince and Princess as direct descendants of King Leopold I.

"Art. 4. De Prinsen en Prinsessen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van Zijne Majesteit Leopold, Joris, Christiaan, Frederik van Saksen-Coburg en die niet worden beoogd door de artikelen 1 tot 3, voeren na hun voornaam en voor zover ze die voeren, hun familienaam, de titels die hun krachtens hun ascendentie toekomen."

Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

"[...] carry, after (!) their first name, and for so far they use one, their family name, the titles which are theirs by descendance"

I read this as:
Anna-Astrid (her first name)
de Habsbourg-Este (her eventual surname)
archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este (her title by ascendance)

Where does the "princess"-part come from, to be used before her surname. The legal article in the previous post says nothing about it?

The first line speaks about the princes and princesses, descendants in direct lineage to King Leopold I. But Anna-Astrid is a descendant in direct lineage from the House of Austria-Este, she is no direct descendant of Leopold I.

 

[Mbruno]

The confusion seems to arise because the 2015 Royal Decree mentions "the princes and princesses" born in direct descendance of King Léopold I who, nonetheless, do not hold the title of "Prince/Princess of Belgium" and the corresponding style of HRH.

After much thought, my personal interpretation is that the Belgian royal decrees use the words "prince" or "princess" in the old-fashioned sense as a synonim of "dynast". In that sense, any person eligible to succeed to the throne is theoretically born a "prince" or "princess" although the title of "Prince/Princess of Belgium" is reserved only to those persons who are born as children or grandchildren of the king or the heir to the throne.

Under that interpretation, the official designation of a prince of Belgium would be:

His/Her Royal Highness the Prince/Princess [Given Names without family name], [Dynastic Titles] , [Prince/Princess of Belgium], [Other Inherited Titles]

For example: Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique

Other dynasts who are not princes/princesses of Belgium should be registered, however, as:

Prince/Princess [Given Names] [Family Name], [Other inherited titles if applicable]

without the style HRH.

Anna-Astrid's case is confusing because her Austrian titles got mixed in her name even though they are only titles of pretense. For example, I don't think she should be legally "HI&RH" in Belgium, but that style was nonetheless used in her birth certificate.

The first line speaks about the princes and princesses, descendants in direct lineage to King Leopold I. But Anna-Astrid is a descendant in direct lineage from the House of Austria-Este, she is no direct descendant of Leopold I.

The previous royal decrees (of 1891 and 1991) used the words "descendants in direct male lineage", but the qualification of paternal line was explicitly dropped in the 2015 decree. Going back to my interpretation that prince/princess means "dynast" in those decrees, my conclusion is that the change in wording is meant to signify that descendants of King Léopold I born in maternal line are now also considered dynasts and, hence, also princes or princesses.

I believe, however, that the change does not retroactively apply to the descendants of the daughters of King Léopold III, but only to the descendants of King Albert II who became dynasts after the introduction of equal primogeniture.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The confusion seems to arise because the 2015 Royal Decree mentions "the princes and princesses" born in direct descendance of King Léopold I who, nonetheless, do not hold the title of "Prince/Princess of Belgium" and the corresponding style of HRH.

After much thought, my personal interpretation is that the Belgian royal decrees use the words "prince" or "princess" in the old-fashioned sense as a synonim of "dynast". In that sense, any person eligible to succeed to the throne is theoretically born a "prince" or "princess" although the title of "Prince/Princess of Belgium" is reserved only to those persons who are born as children or grandchildren of the king or the heir to the throne.

Under that interpretation, the official designation of a prince of Belgium would be:

His/Her Royal Highness the Prince/Princess [Given Names without family name], [Dynastic Titles] , [Prince/Princess of Belgium], [Other Inherited Titles]

For example: Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique

Other dynasts who are not princes/princesses of Belgium should be registered, however, as:

Prince/Princess [Given Names] [Family Name], [Other inherited titles if applicable]

without the style HRH.

Anna-Astrid's case is confusing because her Austrian titles got mixed in her name even though they are only titles of pretense. For example, I don't think she should be legally "HI&RH" in Belgium, but that style was nonetheless used in her birth certificate.

The previous royal decrees (of 1891 and 1991) used the words "descendants in direct male lineage", but the qualification of paternal line was explicitly dropped in the 2015 decree. Going back to my interpretation that prince/princess means "dynast" in those decrees, my conclusion is that the change in wording is meant to signify that descendants of King Léopold I born in maternal line are now also considered dynasts and, hence, also princes or princesses.

I believe, however, that the change does not retroactively apply to the descendants of the daughters of King Léopold III, but only to the descendants of King Albert II who became dynasts after the introduction of equal primogeniture.

I find this an utmost confusing way. When Laetitia Maria marries an untitled gentleman, Mr Van Aert and they get a son, Luc, is then his title "prins Luc Van Aert" analogue to his cousine "prinses Anna-Astrid"?

 

[Marchesina]

I find this an utmost confusing way. When Laetitia Maria marries an untitled gentleman, Mr Van Aert and they get a son, Luc, is then his title "prins Luc Van Aert" analogue to his cousine "prinses Anna-Astrid"?

I agree, if this change was made in order to reduce the princes/princesses in the family, well this creates an even bigger mess.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I find this an utmost confusing way. When Laetitia Maria marries an untitled gentleman, Mr Van Aert and they get a son, Luc, is then his title "prins Luc Van Aert" analogue to his cousine "prinses Anna-Astrid"?

I'm afraid I do not know. It has not been confirmed by the Palace whether the female-line grandchildren of Astrid and Lorenz and of Laurent and Claire are to become Princes and Princesses.

As shown in the decree, all descendants in the direct lineage of King Leopold I who are Princes and Princesses will hold other inherited titles at the same time. This point suggests that the children of Princess Laetitia Maria and Mr. van Aert would only become Princes and Princesses if they would be entitled to other inherited titles.

Article 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Roi ainsi que les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Prince héritier ou de la Princesse héritière portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale.

[...]

Art. 4. Les Princes et Princesses, issus de la descendance directe de Sa Majesté Léopold, Georges, Chrétien, Frédéric de Saxe-Cobourg qui ne sont pas visés par les articles 1er à 3, portent à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils le portent, de leur nom de famille, les titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance.

I agree, if this change was made in order to reduce the princes/princesses in the family, well this creates an even bigger mess.

The noble families of Belgium are rife with princes and princesses: the Princes and Princesses of Ligne, the Princes and Princesses of Arenberg, etc. To reduce the number of princes/princesses in the royal family is therefore unnecessary as, to Belgians, the title of Prince/Princess is not tied to being a royal.

According to the decree, its objective was to limit only the number of Princes and Princesses of Belgium.

"Considérant qu'il est indiqué de limiter l'accroissement du nombre des porteurs du titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à travers les branches collatérales de la Famille Royale;"

"Considering it is apt to limit the growth of the number of the holders of the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium in the collateral branches of the Royal Family;"

Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

 

[maria-olivia]

The Children of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent are the last Prince and Princesses of Belgium by birth.
Princesses Lea and Esmeralda ara the last Princesses of Belgium.