Titles of the Belgian Royal Family 1: Ending Aug.2023

[Duc_et_Pair]

In Belgium a woman cannot use her husband's name or surname for legal purposes. [....]

They can perfectly use their husband's name. The marriage is a legal entity and the married name refers to that legal entity. It is legally allowed to use the husband's surname and have it registered in official documents.

See article 216, second paragraph of the Belgian Civic Code: Aucun des époux ne peut user dans ses relations du nom de son conjoint qu'avec l'accord de celui-ci. L'accord ne peut être retiré que pour motifs graves. Le retrait ouvre un recours devant le tribunal de la famille.

It says that the spouse can use the husband's name, when it has been agreed (the civil registrar will ask it at the marriage ceremony). The agreed use of the surname can only be revoked for very serious reasons. The spouse can protest against the revoking of the agreement at a Family Tribunal (Court of Justice).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

They can perfectly use their husband's name. The marriage is a legal entity and the married name refers to that legal entity. It is legally allowed to use the husband's surname and have it registered in official documents.

See article 216, second paragraph of the Belgian Civic Code: Aucun des époux ne peut user dans ses relations du nom de son conjoint qu'avec l'accord de celui-ci. L'accord ne peut être retiré que pour motifs graves. Le retrait ouvre un recours devant le tribunal de la famille.

It says that the spouse can use the husband's name, when it has been agreed (the civil registrar will ask it at the marriage ceremony). The agreed use of the surname can only be revoked for very serious reasons. The spouse can protest against the revoking of the agreement at a Family Tribunal (Court of Justice).

Thank you, Duc_et_Pair. Very interesting. Are you sure that it refers to legal documents? A Belgian embassy states:

En Belgique, le seul nom légalement reconnu est celui qui figure sur votre acte de naissance (c'est-à-dire le "nom de jeune fille" pour les femmes mariées ou veuves). Une autre mention sur vos documents officiels belges ne serait pas valable. Le Législateur a ainsi voulu éviter toute discrimination, tant entre hommes et femmes qu'entre couples mariés ou non.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The law has been changed: a couple, no matter male-female, female-female, male-male, can use each other surnames, a child can chose the name of the father, of the mother or even both. In that sense the birth name remains on all documents. That does however not mean that when you marry a Belgian Mr Jansen, you can not be known as Mrs Jansen, sign with Mrs Jansen or have the name Mrs Jansen in your passport. It is allowed and valid. The original birth name however will always remain in official documents ("Mrs Jansen née Delahaye").

Mathilde de Belgique (married name) is as legal and valid as Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz (original name).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

See article 216, second paragraph of the Belgian Civic Code: Aucun des époux ne peut user dans ses relations du nom de son conjoint qu'avec l'accord de celui-ci. L'accord ne peut être retiré que pour motifs graves. Le retrait ouvre un recours devant le tribunal de la famille.

It appears as though the copy of the Civil Code quoted in your post skipped a word in article 216, paragraph 2, which applies to professional names.

Art. 216.<L 14-07-1976, art. 1>. § 1. Chaque époux a le droit d'exercer une profession sans l'accord de son conjoint.
Toutefois, si celui-ci estime que cette activité est de nature à porter un préjudice sérieux à ses intérêts moraux ou matériels ou à ceux des enfants mineurs, il a un droit de recours devant le tribunal de [1 la famille]1.
Le tribunal peut subordonner l'exercice de la profession à la modification préalable du régime matrimonial des époux.
Les dispositions des deux alinéas précédents ne sont pas applicables à l'exercice de mandats publics.
§ 2. Aucun des époux ne peut user dans ses relations professionnelles du nom de son conjoint qu'avec l'accord de celui-ci.
L'accord ne peut être retiré que pour motifs graves. Le retrait ouvre un recours devant le tribunal de [1 la famille]1.
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(1)<L 2013-07-30/23, art. 25, 065; En vigueur : 01-09-2014>

The law has been changed: a couple, no matter male-female, female-female, male-male, can use each other surnames, [....] That does however not mean that when you marry a Belgian Mr Jansen, you can not be known as Mrs Jansen, sign with Mrs Jansen or have the name Mrs Jansen in your passport. It is allowed and valid. The original birth name however will always remain in official documents ("Mrs Jansen née Delahaye").

Several Belgian embassies say that the only legally recognized name is the name on the birth certificate, and that the usage of another name in official documents is invalid. If this has changed of late, can you please provide more details?
Ambassade de Belgique, Paris
Questions fréquemment posées - Norvège - Diplomatie
Questions fréquentes sur la carte d’identité et le passeport | La Belgique en Allemagne


In any event, to answer Rudolph's question, there is no common law requirement for a married woman to use the style "Princess William" or "Mrs. John Smith" in Belgium.

 

[NotHRH]

So if that is true, then any woman who marries a Belgian prince, whether they are made a "HRH Princess of Belgium" (Mathilde, Claire, Lea) or not (Elisabetta), their only officially recognized name is the name present on their birthday certificate? And, I assume this would apply to Lorenz and his children who were born before he was made HRH Prince of Belgium - which would include Amadeo? And therefore Lili is really not entitled to use Princess Elisabetta after all?

 

[NotHRH]

The royal court of Belgium uses the titles Princess Alexandre, Princess Mathilde (now Queen), Princess Claire, and Princess Elisabetta respectively.

Princess Alexandre: La Monarchie belge: Accueil - Actualités - Agenda - Décès du Prince Alexandre de Belgique
Princess Mathilde: The Belgian Monarchy: Home - Portrait of Princess Mathilde
Princess Claire: The Belgian Monarchy: Home - Royal Family - Princess Claire
Princess Elisabetta: http://www.koningsfan.dse.nl/bedankkaartje231.jpg


I fail to see why the court styles Léa as Princess Alexandre and Elisabetta as Princess Elisabetta, but it clearly does not hinge on a title being "in her own right". Léa was created a Princess of Belgium by a Royal Decree and is therefore comparable to Mathilde and Claire, whereas Elisabetta uses her husband's title as a courtesy.

- Léa Wolman was never created "HRH Princess of Belgium" in her own right. According to Wikipedia: "The couple [Alexandre and Lea] had no children together, and the marriage was kept secret until 1998, as reportedly the prince feared his mother would disapprove. Alexander's marriage contravened Article 85 of the Belgian constitution, which deprived the right of succession to the throne any descendant of King Leopold I who marries without the sovereign's permission."

 

[Lee-Z]

^^^^ as I understand it, Princess Lea was the last princess in Belgium who received her title "because of het marriage to a prince"; this was changed end 1991, but because they were married before that, nothing changed in her title

See: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_van_Belgi%C3%AB
translated

 

[Tatiana Maria]

According to Wikipedia: "The couple [Alexandre and Lea] had no children together, and the marriage was kept secret until 1998, as reportedly the prince feared his mother would disapprove. Alexander's marriage contravened Article 85 of the Belgian constitution, which deprived the right of succession to the throne any descendant of King Leopold I who marries without the sovereign's permission."

That is correct, but the Royal Decree of 1891 created her a Princess of Belgium all the same: "Les princesses unies par mariage aux princes de notre maison royale seront qualifiées de la même manière à la suite des noms et titres qui leur sont propres." Marriage without permission or lack of succession rights (Alexander's succession rights were renounced by his father before his birth) does not have any effect on titles under the 1891, 1991, or 2015 decrees.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The question was if Donna Elisabetta was -like Léa- a Princess by virtue of marriage and the answer is yes, as it has been showed in this official card from the Belgian Court ("With pleasure Princess Elisabetta received the wishes for her 28th birthday you were so kind to send. She sincerely thanks you for this fine attention".)

 

[Tatiana Maria]

But Princess Alexander is not "like" Princess Elisabetta. Léa does not have a courtesy title, she has a title that was formalized by a Royal Decree like the titles of Prince Lorenz, Princess Claire, Princess Elisabeth, or Prince Amedeo.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

But Princess Alexander is not "like" Princess Elisabetta. Léa does not have a courtesy title, she has a title that was formalized by a Royal Decree like the titles of Prince Lorenz, Princess Claire, Princess Elisabeth, or Prince Amedeo.

Well, Máxima is formally not a Queen at all since her legal title is HRH Princess Máxima of the Netherlands but neither the Court nor the media nor the people use her official title.

Camilla is The Princess of Wales by virtue of marriage but she is always addressed as The Duchess of Cornwall.

James Mountbatten-Windsor simply is HRH Prince James of Wessex by birthright but everyone knows him as James, Viscount Severn.

Liliane Baels never was created Princesse de Réthy but that did not stop the Court, the media and the people using that title anyway.

As spouse to Prince Alexander respectively to Prince Amedeo, the formal courtesy titles are Princess Alexander and Princess Amedeo. But it is seen as more friendly and more personal to address them as Princess Léa and Princess Elisabetta. And that is indeed what the Court does.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I am sorry, I don't quite understand what you're saying. Is it your opinion that Princess Alexander's title of Princess of Belgium is only a courtesy title?

 

[Stefan]

As spouse to Prince Alexander respectively to Prince Amedeo, the formal courtesy titles are Princess Alexander and Princess Amedeo. But it is seen as more friendly and more personal to address them as Princess Léa and Princess Elisabetta. And that is indeed what the Court does.

It is only that other Princesses have to be vreated a Princess in their own right like Claire and Mathilde. They could simply refer to all married in Princessess as Princess Claire, Princess Mathilde etc. It is like this in the scandinavian monarchies.

 

[Lee-Z]

Well, Máxima is formally not a Queen at all since her legal title is HRH Princess Máxima of the Netherlands but neither the Court nor the media nor the people use her official title.

Camilla is The Princess of Wales by virtue of marriage but she is always addressed as The Duchess of Cornwall.

James Mountbatten-Windsor simply is HRH Prince James of Wessex by birthright but everyone knows him as James, Viscount Severn.

Liliane Baels never was created Princesse de Réthy but that did not stop the Court, the media and the people using that title anyway.

As spouse to Prince Alexander respectively to Prince Amedeo, the formal courtesy titles are Princess Alexander and Princess Amedeo. But it is seen as more friendly and more personal to address them as Princess Léa and Princess Elisabetta. And that is indeed what the Court does.

But....isn't the point that Princess Lea isn't just addressed Princess Lea because it sounds friendlier, but because that in fact is her title?
And that that is what makes the difference between her and for instance Elisabetta who might be friendly named "Princess Elisabetta" but in fact that is not her title because it actually is "Princess Amadeo"?

Sorry about harping on about this, but i try to understand how this works...

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

But....isn't the point that Princess Lea isn't just addressed Princess Lea because it sounds friendlier, but because that in fact is her title?
And that that is what makes the difference between her and for instance Elisabetta who might be friendly named "Princess Elisabetta" but in fact that is not her title because it actually is "Princess Amadeo"?

Sorry about harping on about this, but i try to understand how this works...

Well... she may be "Princess Léa" but look at this:

The Court (!!!): La Monarchie belge: Accueil - Actualités - Agenda - Décès du Prince Alexandre de Belgique

Her very own charity fund: Fonds d'Entraide Prince et Princesse Alexandre de Belgique

Or the RTBf (the French-speaking Public Broadcaster): La Princesse Alexandre de Belgique du 16 mars 2015, C'est du Belge : RTBF Vidéo

The Royal Sea Cadets School: Nieuwsbrief



So morale of the story: it can be Princess Alexander or Princess Léa, they use it both. It can be Princess Amadeo or Princess Elisabetta, they use it both as well.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

But....isn't the point that Princess Lea isn't just addressed Princess Lea because it sounds friendlier, but because that in fact is her title?

The choice of name is ostensibly the woman's or the royal court's decision.

Princess Alexander (Léa) has a substantive legal title by virtue of marrying Prince Alexander when the decree of 1891, which automatically created a woman who marries a Prince of Belgium a Princess of Belgium, was in force.

Art. 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les princes et les princesses issus de la descendance masculine et directe de feu Sa Majesté Léopold Ier, seront qualifiés de princes et princesses de Belgique, à la suite de leurs prénoms et avant la mention de leur titre originaire de duc ou duchesse de Saxe.
Les princesses unies par mariage aux princes de notre maison royale seront qualifiées de la même manière à la suite des noms et titres qui leur sont propres.

This decree was repealed in December 1991, however, the titles created by it were preserved, which is confirmed by Article 3 of the 2015 decree with respect to royal titles. (If not, Prince Alexander and his sisters Marie-Christine and Esmeralda would have also lost their titles.)

And that that is what makes the difference between her and for instance Elisabetta who might be friendly named "Princess Elisabetta" but in fact that is not her title because it actually is "Princess Amadeo"?

Sorry about harping on about this, but i try to understand how this works...

Elisabetta's formal social title written in the court's thank-you notes is Princess Elisabetta: http://www.koningsfan.dse.nl/bedankkaartje231.jpg
Her legal title written in a royal decree issued last November is Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
This corresponds to Belgian noblemen's wives, who are commoners legally but are traditionally addressed by their husbands' titles in society.

 

[maria-olivia]

Esmeralda remains Princess of Belgium her whole life; her Children are Alexandra and Leopoldo Moncando.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Esmeralda remains Princess of Belgium her whole life; her Children are Alexandra and Leopoldo Moncando.

Her full style is Her Royal Highness Princess Marie-Esméralda of Belgium, Lady Moncada,I forgot her husband was awarded a Knighthood some years ago.

 

[NotHRH]

The choice of name is ostensibly the woman's or the royal court's decision.

Princess Alexander (Léa) has a substantive legal title by virtue of marrying Prince Alexander when the decree of 1891, which automatically created a woman who marries a Prince of Belgium a Princess of Belgium, was in force. This decree was repealed in December 1991, however, the titles created by it were preserved, which is confirmed by Article 3 of the 2015 decree with respect to royal titles. (If not, Prince Alexander and his sisters Marie-Christine and Esmeralda would have also lost their titles.)



Elisabetta's formal social title written in the court's thank-you notes is Princess Elisabetta: http://www.koningsfan.dse.nl/bedankkaartje231.jpg
Her legal title written in a royal decree issued last November is Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
This corresponds to Belgian noblemen's wives, who are commoners legally but are traditionally addressed by their husbands' titles in society.

Im somewhat confused. In English, an unmarried woman carries the generic title of "Miss." But here Elisabetta is clearly being referred to as a married woman, "Mrs.," but her last name is still the same as her unmarried last name. So, for instance, my name before marriage is Miss Jane Brown, then when I get married and if I still choose to use my unmarried (or "maiden") name it is still Miss Jane Brown or Ms. Jane Brown, not Mrs. Jane Brown (unless my husband has the exact same last name as my maiden name). If Miss Jane Brown marries Mr Charles Black, then she becomes Mrs. Jane Black. Same with the Duke of York ' s ex-wife. Miss Sarah Ferguson married HRH Prince Andrew of Great Britain, even if she would not have gained a title, she would not have been known as Mrs. Sarah Ferguson. So why the "Mrs." title in front of Lili's maiden name?

 

[Lee-Z]

^^^^^ i think this is a little different; in dutch there used to be a similar difference between Mevrouw (married) and Mejuffrouw (unmarried), but this difference is rarely used anymore, all women are Mevrouw unless a woman explicitely wants differently

but i think this is another matter from the royal titles

 

[maria-olivia]

Thanks for correcting An Ard Ri.

 

[Mbruno]

^^^^^ i think this is a little different; in dutch there used to be a similar difference between Mevrouw (married) and Mejuffrouw (unmarried), but this difference is rarely used anymore, all women are Mevrouw unless a woman explicitely wants differently

but i think this is another matter from the royal titles

The French version of the royal decree refers to her as "Madame" not "Mademoiselle". I suppose then that "Mewrouw" in the Dutch version is indeed supposed to mean "Mrs" rather "Ms".

 

[NotHRH]

The French version of the royal decree refers to her as "Madame" not "Mademoiselle". I suppose then that "Mewrouw" in the Dutch version is indeed supposed to mean "Mrs" rather "Ms".

Or did you mean to state "Ms." rather than "Mrs." (=married/divorced, still using ex-husband ' s surname)?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

My understanding is that unmarried women are regularly referred to as Madame (or Mevrouw) in Belgium. All the same, the court always used the old-fashioned Miss (Juffrouw or Mademoiselle) with Elisabetta, Mathilde and Claire before the weddings.

 

[maria-olivia]

Sire, Mevrouw , Madame
So were called Queen Fabiola and Queen Paola.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

My understanding is that unmarried women are regularly referred to as Madame (or Mevrouw) in Belgium. All the same, the court always used the old-fashioned Miss (Juffrouw or Mademoiselle) with Elisabetta, Mathilde and Claire before the weddings.

Not always Mademoiselle. To make things complicated: in unmarried French aristocrat ladies are Demoiselle, like the Dutch equivalent Jonkvrouw.

See the Act of Marriage of Philippe and Mathilde:

" [...] et Demoiselle Mathilde Marie Christine Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, née à Uccle, le vingt janvier mil neuf cent septante-trois [...] "

(and Demoiselle Mathilde Marie Christine Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, born in Uccle, the Twentieth of January Nineteen hundred and seventy-three)




" [...] Dont Acte fait en présence de [...] Demoiselle Élisabeth Marie Hedwige Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, soeur de l'Epouse, âgée de vingt-deux ans, domiciliée à Bastogne, et de Demoiselle Stéphanie Priscilla Marie-Anne Jane de Radigues de Chennevière, ni parente ni alliée des Epoux, âgée de vingt-quatre ans, domiciliée à Forest. [...] "

( "The Act was set up in the presence of [...] Demoiselle Élisabeth Marie Hedwige Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, sister of the female spouse, aged Twenty-two years and residing in Bastogne, and of Demoiselle Stéphanie Priscilla Marie-Anne Jane de Radigues de Chennevière, neither parented nor allied to the spouses, aged Twenty-four years and residing in Forest. [...] " )

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The royal palace referred to Princess Elisabetta and her husband as "Prince and Princess Amedeo" when it confirmed her pregnancy to RTL.

Sire, Mevrouw , Madame
So were called Queen Fabiola and Queen Paola.

Queen Mathilde, on the other hand, is said to prefer "Majesty".

According to the made-over website, the kings should only be addressed as Sire (in Dutch and French), while the queens may be addressed as either Majesty or Mevrouw/Madame. The princes and princesses may be addressed as Royal Highness or as Monseigneur (in Dutch and French) or Mevrouw/Madame.

http://www.monarchie.be/nl/monarchie/protocol
http://www.monarchie.be/fr/monarchie/protocole

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The royal palace referred to Princess Elisabetta and her husband as "Prince and Princess Amedeo" when it confirmed her pregnancy to RTL.

Elisabetta was again styled Princess Amedeo in the official announcement of her daughter's birth.
http://www.facebook.com/BeMonarchie/posts/1684077428522557

The Twitter account of Place Royale on RTL claims that the daughter of Prince and Princess Amedeo holds the title Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. In November, La Libre similarly claimed that the grandchildren of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent would have the title Prince or Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. Both stories are unconfirmed.

 

[Marengo]

An elegant sollution if it is true, esp. for Laurent's children. In the case of Anna Amalia I would have preferred incorporating her into the Belgian nobility as 'Princess de Habsburg-Este', but well. Let's see if the palace gives any clarity on the matter soon. Probably not...

I also noticed the 'Princesse Amedeo'. Not that odd as the nobility is usually still referred to in these ways in society magazines, invitations or family advertisements in newspapers. But f.e. the countess Thierry de Limburg-Stirum calls herself Katia della Faille professionally.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The Twitter account of Place Royale on RTL claims that the daughter of Prince and Princess Amedeo holds the title Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. In November, La Libre similarly claimed that the grandchildren of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent would have the title Prince or Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. Both stories are unconfirmed.

That's interesting and I also wonder if the grandchildren of Prince Laurent would be styled HRH Prince/Princess of Saxe-Cobourg or just H.H.Prince/Princess of Saxe-Cobourg?