Titles of the Belgian Royal Family 1: Ending Aug.2023

[Tatiana Maria]

The Royal Decree refers retroactively to the lady whom is -at present- in married state and therefore a Mevrouw/Madame.

I agree that the royal decree refers to her married state. Mevrouw/Madame can be used when addressing unmarried women, but the court addresses fiancées as Juffrouw/Mademoiselle.

I was alluding to the difference between the greeting cards (Princess Elisabetta) and the royal decree (Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein), which corroborates that the title "Princess Elisabetta" is a courtesy title as opposed to a legally recognized one.

Technically, under the new 2015 royal decree, Princess Elisabeth's civil name for example is

Her Royal Highness Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchess of Brabant, Princess of Belgium.

"Prince(ss)" is also inserted before the given names, e.g. "Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Amedeo, Prins van België" in the decree concerning his marriage or "H.R.H. Prince Albert, Felix, Humbert, Theodore, Christian, Eugene, Marie, Prince of Liege, Prince of Belgium" in the Constitution.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.

IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.

[...]

Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

12 NOVEMBER 2015. - Koninklijk besluit betreffende de verlening van de titel van Prins of Prinses van België
12 NOVEMBRE 2015. - Arrêté royal relatif à l'octroi du titre de Prince ou Princesse de Belgique

The heir to the throne is referred to as "the Crown Prince or the Crown Princess" (Art. 1), a title which isn't present in the Constitution or in other statutes.

Descendants of King Léopold I, even those who are expressly not Princes and Princesses of Belgium (Art. 4), are referred to as "Princes and Princesses".

The seventh paragraph of the preamble implies a relationship between transmission of family names, the national register of natural persons, "participation in economic life by members of the royal family", and "avoiding confusion between the family name and the titles", but I do not see it.

 

[NotHRH]

It has similarities to the British system but is more generous than that.
It has similarities to the Dutch system but is less generous than that.

NL - 2002
The children of the King or the Heir have the title HRH Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau

BE - 2015
The children and the grandchildren of the King or the Heir have the title HRH Prince (Princess) of Belgium

In both NL and BE: all who fall outside this circle keep their already given title as a personal and non-hereditary title.

In both NL and BE: the King can create new nobility (unlike Sweden and Norway, for an example). In the Netherlands the children born to the younger princes (Friso and Constantijn) were elevated into the hereditary nobility with the title Graaf (Gravin) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. In Denmark Queen Margrethe elevated her children and grandchildren into the hereditary nobility with the title Greve (Komtesse) af Monpezat. Belgium still has an active ennoblement policy. It would not surprise me when King Philippe or Queen Elisabeth elevate their cousins into the hereditary nobility as well.

Why were Princess Margriet's sons titled anyway? Back in the day, a princess ' s children did not inherit a royal title from their mother? Princess Irene married Carlos - Hugo (and did not seek her mother's permission to do so as it would have been declined as CH was Catholic) and their titles came from their father. Beatrix later incorporated them into the Belgian nobility. Princess Christina married an untitled Catholic man and she did seek her mother's permission for the same reason as Irene. So I have wondered why Margriet's sons have the "Prince of Orange - Nassau" title?

 

[Marengo]

See post no. 75, here.

Princesses Irene and Chrisina never asked for permission for their marriages and thus were stripped of their succession rights. In Irene's case permission would not have been granted as she married a pretender to the Spanish throne and the Dutch government didn't want to get involved in such a mess. Christina did not want permission as she preverred a life out of the limelight. Catholicism was not an issue in these matters.

 

[NotHRH]

Elisabetta clearly is not a Princess of Belgium in her own right as the title is no longer automatic for consorts of HRHs and no rioyal decree was issued granting her that title. I suppose though that, as Prince Amedeo's wife, she can be referred to by the courtesy title of Princess Amedeo.

As for Amedeo's other titles (archduke of Austria, prince of Hungary and Bohemia, duke of Modena, etc.), they are merely titles of pretense as they are not legally recognized by Austria, Hungary, Italy, or the Czech Republic.

That makes sense - to me a "princess in her right" = Princess Elisabetta of Belgium. But as Amadeo's wife = Princess Amadeo of Belgium. I realize Amadeo's other titles are titles of pretense, but (as in Princess Caroline of Monaco's daughter, Mlle. Alexandra von Hanover but in Monaco= HRH Princess Alexandra of Hanover) if Belgium recognizes those titles, and he is no longer in the line of succession, is he now "Archduke Amadeo of Austria-Este, Prince of Belgium, ..."?

 

[Mbruno]

Why were Princess Margriet's sons titled anyway? Back in the day, a princess ' s children did not inherit a royal title from their mother? Princess Irene married Carlos - Hugo (and did not seek her mother's permission to do so as it would have been declined as CH was Catholic) and their titles came from their father. Beatrix later incorporated them into the Belgian nobility. Princess Christina married an untitled Catholic man and she did seek her mother's permission for the same reason as Irene. So I have wondered why Margriet's sons have the "Prince of Orange - Nassau" title?

Prince Constantijn's children could also have been legally made princes or princesses of Orange-Nassau as they were members of the Royal House when they were born and all members of the Royal House can get that title by royal decree. They could not have been made princes or princesses of the Netherlands though as they were not children of the Heir Apparent.

 

[Mbruno]

That makes sense - to me a "princess in her right" = Princess Elisabetta of Belgium. But as Amadeo's wife = Princess Amadeo of Belgium. I realize Amadeo's other titles are titles of pretense, but (as in Princess Caroline of Monaco's daughter, Mlle. Alexandra von Hanover but in Monaco= HRH Princess Alexandra of Hanover) if Belgium recognizes those titles, and he is no longer in the line of succession, is he now "Archduke Amadeo of Austria-Este, Prince of Belgium, ..."?

The royal decree says, if I understand it correctly, that he can use any other title he has by ancestry AFTER his name and his title of prince of Belgium. So technically he should be called

HRH Prince Amedeo etc etc , Prince of Belgium, Archduke of Austria-Este etc etc

 

[NotHRH]

See post no. 75, here.

Princesses Irene and Chrisina never asked for permission for their marriages and thus were stripped of their succession rights. In Irene's case permission would not have been granted as she married a pretender to the Spanish throne and the Dutch government didn't want to get involved in such a mess. Christina did not want permission as she preverred a life out of the limelight. Catholicism was not an issue in these matters.

I read that because C-H was 1st Catholic and 2nd was a pretender to the Spanish throne were THE two issues in Irene not seeking her mother's permission. C-H being Catholic sent "shockwaves" (believe it or not) throughout the Netherlands. Because he was only a "pretender" to the Spanish throne, and QJ preferred another pretender to the Spanish throne - Infante Juan - Carlos (later King J-C) of Spain - I don't think she even wanted C-H in the Netherlands. This was actually considered a crisis in the Netherlands in that era - when Irene converted to Catholicism she was banned from her home country for awhile. It was a long time ago - now the Netherlands has Catholic Queen consort. Times have changed....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/royalty-obituaries/7962633/HRH-Prince-Carlos-Hugo.html

 

[NotHRH]

It would be interesting to know why now, but I don't believe we will find out.

I believe the new Belgian solution would have worked a lot better if the King had 2 children...

How would it have worked if Philippe had 2 children?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Why were Princess Margriet's sons titled anyway? Back in the day, a princess ' s children did not inherit a royal title from their mother? Princess Irene married Carlos - Hugo (and did not seek her mother's permission to do so as it would have been declined as CH was Catholic) and their titles came from their father. Beatrix later incorporated them into the Belgian nobility. Princess Christina married an untitled Catholic man and she did seek her mother's permission for the same reason as Irene. So I have wondered why Margriet's sons have the "Prince of Orange - Nassau" title?

Pieter van Vollenhoven was the first commoner ever to marry with a Prince or Princess of the (Dutch) Royal House. Both the paternal family (Van Vollenhoven) as well the maternal family (Stuyling de Lange) belong to the Patriciate, for generations. Queen Juliana could have elevated this patrician into the Nobility, for an example with the surname Stuyling de Lange van Vollenhoven. But Queen Juliana was rigid in her handling of things: she refused to make a difference between her grandchildren. The High Council of Nobility advised against the title "Prince of Orange-Nassau" as a personal title, following the paternal surname. They found that an undesirable mess, to say it careful.

When Pieter was -for an example- Jonkheer Stuyling de Lange van Vollenhoven, his sons and all his grandchildren now belonged to the Dutch Nobility. But these were the roaring Sixties. Queen Juliana wanted to "prove" that she fully accepted a commoner into the royal family. Elevating him into the Nobility would look like she was not on terms with Pieter. It was all new.

Pieter and Margriet told they had to overcome strong opposition in the royal family, at the Court, in society even. (Pieter was not taken au-sérieux for decades). In the end all came well-settled. Except the mess with the titles and surnames of his children and grandchildren.

 

[Princess Robijn]

How would it have worked if Philippe had 2 children?

Only the (new) children and grandchildren of the King/Queen and heir will receive titles in the future. With the King and Queen having 4 children, there are 4 children who give the titles to their children. Say 3 kids, it means 12 Princes and/or Princesses instead of 6. And that is if the spouses don't get the title.

 

[Mbruno]

Only the (new) children and grandchildren of the King/Queen and heir will receive titles in the future. With the King and Queen having 4 children, there are 4 children who give the titles to their children.

Which is reasonable in my opinion. I find it too restrictive to limit the title of prince/princess only to the Heir Apparent's children (as in the Netherlands), or only to the monarch's grandchildren in male line (as in the UK).

I think all of the monarch's grandchildren should be princes/princesses, but a distinction could be made in their style, e.g. the Heir Apparent's children could be HRHs, whereas his/her younger siblings' children could be HHs only (as in Denmark).

 

[maria-olivia]

This Thread concerns Belgium .

We have for the moment 18 Princes and Princesses .
This never happen before .

 

[Marchesina]

I think all of the monarch's grandchildren should be princes/princesses, but a distinction could be made in their style, e.g. the Heir Apparent's children could be HRHs, whereas his/her younger siblings' children could be HHs only (as in Denmark).

It was about time to modify the rules through which a member of the Belgian Royal Family and his/her issues are or aren't Prince/Princess of Belgium. It could have potentially become a mess. Especially now that government has restricted the Dotation Royale only to a few members of the family and the others, including the children of Philippe -apart from Elisabeth- will have to work outside their public duties as Princes of Belgium.
But I agree with Mbruno: IMO the Danish solution is the best. All the grandchildren are granted the title but only the heir's/heiress' children should be styled HRH, like a distinction between "royal princes" and "princes of the blood" who should be styled HH.

 

[principessa]

If Prince Alexandre and Princess Lea would have had children would they be also "HRH Prince/ss of Belgium"?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It was about time to modify the rules through which a member of the Belgian Royal Family and his/her issues are or aren't Prince/Princess of Belgium. It could have potentially become a mess. Especially now that government has restricted the Dotation Royale only to a few members of the family and the others, including the children of Philippe -apart from Elisabeth- will have to work outside their public duties as Princes of Belgium.
But I agree with Mbruno: IMO the Danish solution is the best. All the grandchildren are granted the title but only the heir's/heiress' children should be styled HRH, like a distinction between "royal princes" and "princes of the blood" who should be styled HH.

I like the more restrictive Dutch situation the best: only the children of the Sovereign and the Heir are Princes (Princesses). Outside the well-informed (for an example we all on the Royal Forums, with interest in royal matters), no one makes a distinction between a HRH Prince of Belgium and a HH Prince of Belgium. When grandchild nr 14 does something stupid, it is "Belgian Prince Arrested" in the newspapers, with or without HRH.

"Parking" family members outside the direct line into a noble family like the Counts/Countesses Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg (Netherlands), like the Counts/Countesses of Rosenborg (Denmark) and like the Counts/Countesses of Wisborg (Sweden) seems to work well. So to see the Danes have already thought about the future of family-members beside Prince Frederik and Prince Christian: the Queen has created all her descendants Counts/Countesses of Monpezat and it is very well possible that Prince Nikolai, Prince Felix and Prince Henrik (sons of Prince Joachim) will see their future offspring titled as Counts/Countesses of Monpezat indeed and no longer as Princes/Princesses of Denmark.

So the Belgian solution is a good step in the right direction, it is still a too large group. They already have no "grip" on Prince Laurent, what when -for an example- his son Prince Aymeric turns out to be a scandalous dude? Control is the key. The smaller the group associated with the core royal family, the better.

 

[Marengo]

I agree with you here. And although I understand that family dynamics may make it complicated to take titles away from Astrid's and Laurent's children, I find it surprising that they already decided to repeat the scenario for Philippe's grandchildren. I would say it is a good opportunity to restrict the number and keep the club exclusive.

Ideally I would prefer them to be created HH Princes of X (Cobourg or Laeken perhaps) instead of 'of Belgium'. However since there are so many princes, counts etc. around in Belgium it is odd that f.e. Laurents grandchildren will be untitled. Especially since this means that f.e. the many, many members of the many, many collatoral lines of the Merode family will have higher titles then the legitemate offspring of the RF.

Likewise I would say that in the Netherlands Constantijn's kids could have been princes of Orange-Nassau, CP's and Madeleine's children 'princes Bernadotte' etc.

But well, the powers that be decided otherwise, and so they should .

 

[Tatiana Maria]

If Prince Alexandre and Princess Lea would have had children would they be also "HRH Prince/ss of Belgium"?

LOI - WET

See the royal decree which was active from December 15, 1991 to November 12, 2015. The title would not have been automatic as they would not be descended from Prince Albert/King Albert II.

 

[Al_bina]

Re: Al Bina

I would say that he informed with the palace what the best way would be. Perhaps they adviced him on this course of action as they were working on the title change but didn't think they could finish it on time for the wedding?

I see your point.
We are unable to determine the course of affairs within the Belgian royal family. The whole process could be stalled by usual bureaucracy.

 

[MARG]

I'm not too sure how things go, but in Sweden Constitutional change had to be passed by two consecutive parliaments. It takes time and a will for change for it to pass. It also allows for the chance to legally renege if things change within that year.

It is probable that such change is as slow elsewhere.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

There is no constitutional change needed. The only thing the Belgian Constitution says is in Article 113: "The King has the right to grant nobility". The various Royal Decrees concerning the titles of the Belgian royal family are all a furtherer regulation. In the Netherlands it is regulated in article 41 of the Constitution: "The King shall organize his House, taking due account to public interest". So changes in titles do not need a constitutional change at all.

 

[NotHRH]

Donna Elisabetta herself is created nothing. She can be addressed with her spouse's titles: Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Elisabetta of Belgium, Archduchess of Austria and Princess of Hungary. Like any Belgian lady who marries a Prince, a Duke, a Marquess, a Count, a Viscount, a Baron can be addressed with her spouse's title.

Mathilde and Claire
were given the titles of "HRH Princess Mathilde / Claire of Belgium" before each of their weddings, as King Baudouin issued a decree stating that future wives of princes would no longer automatically assume the "princess" title because they married a Belgian prince. So I do not think that your assumption concerning Lili's Belgian title is incorrect. She is considered "Princess Amadeo of Belgium," but not "Princess Elisabetta of Belgium" - she was not made a "Princess of Belgium" in her own right by King Philippe. Of course, the titles she assumed upon her marriage from Amadeo's paternal family are not affected.

Perhaps if he is paying rent for it.

 

[NotHRH]

Mathilde and Claire
were given the titles of "HRH Princess Mathilde / Claire of Belgium" before each of their weddings, as King Baudouin issued a decree stating that future wives of princes would no longer automatically assume the "princess" title because they married a Belgian prince. So I do not think that your assumption concerning Lili's Belgian title is incorrect. She is considered "Princess Amadeo of Belgium," but not "Princess Elisabetta of Belgium" - she was not made a "Princess of Belgium" in her own right by King Philippe. Of course, the titles she assumed upon her marriage from Amadeo's paternal family are not affected.

According to Wikipedia: Before the wedding, by means of a Royal Order of 8 November 1999, Mathilde was made a princess of Belgium in her own right. This Royal Order entered into force on the date of the wedding. The wife of a Belgian prince used to receive this title automatically, but a special creation is now required.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Mathilde and Claire
were given the titles of "HRH Princess Mathilde / Claire of Belgium" before each of their weddings, as King Baudouin issued a decree stating that future wives of princes would no longer automatically assume the "princess" title because they married a Belgian prince. So I do not think that your assumption concerning Lili's Belgian title is incorrect. She is considered "Princess Amadeo of Belgium," but not "Princess Elisabetta of Belgium" - she was not made a "Princess of Belgium" in her own right by King Philippe. Of course, the titles she assumed upon her marriage from Amadeo's paternal family are not affected.

The style Princess Amedeo of Belgium is absolutely correct but in daily speech no one will address her as Princess Amedeo. Look at Léa Wolman: formally she is Princess Alexandre of Belgium but everyone knows her as Princess Léa.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

According to Wikipedia: Before the wedding, by means of a Royal Order of 8 November 1999, Mathilde was made a princess of Belgium in her own right. This Royal Order entered into force on the date of the wedding. The wife of a Belgian prince used to receive this title automatically, but a special creation is now required.

The formal difference is that Countess Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz and Claire Coombs are "Princess of Belgium" in their own right and therefore can be addressed as "Princess Mathilde" or "Princess Claire".

Donna Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein and Léa Wolman are (were) married to Prince Amedeo respectively Prince Alexandre. Therefore they can be addressed as "Princess Amedeo of Belgium" resp. "Princess Alexandre of Belgium". In practice (see "Princess Diana") this difference is not made.

Example 1 in French

Example 2 in Dutch

Example 3 on Flemish television

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The royal court of Belgium uses the titles Princess Alexandre, Princess Mathilde (now Queen), Princess Claire, and Princess Elisabetta respectively.

Princess Alexandre: La Monarchie belge: Accueil - Actualités - Agenda - Décès du Prince Alexandre de Belgique
Princess Mathilde: The Belgian Monarchy: Home - Portrait of Princess Mathilde
Princess Claire: The Belgian Monarchy: Home - Royal Family - Princess Claire
Princess Elisabetta: http://www.koningsfan.dse.nl/bedankkaartje231.jpg


I fail to see why the court styles Léa as Princess Alexandre and Elisabetta as Princess Elisabetta, but it clearly does not hinge on a title being "in her own right". Léa was created a Princess of Belgium by a Royal Decree and is therefore comparable to Mathilde and Claire, whereas Elisabetta uses her husband's title as a courtesy.

 

[NotHRH]

The style Princess Amedeo of Belgium is absolutely correct but in daily speech no one will address her as Princess Amedeo. Look at Léa Wolman: formally she is Princess Alexandre of Belgium but everyone knows her as Princess Léa.

I just read that Princess Lea was made a princess in her own right. I guess at this point in time Princess Elisabetta is more relevant to the BRF than is Princess Alexandre. Go figure!

 

[Spheno]

I fail to see why the court styles Léa as Princess Alexandre and Elisabetta as Princess Elisabetta, but it clearly does not hinge on a title being "in her own right". Léa was created a Princess of Belgium by a Royal Decree and is therefore comparable to Mathilde and Claire, whereas Elisabetta uses her husband's title as a courtesy.

Do Dutch or French languages have such a form of address as Princess Hasband'sName of Belgium at all? I doubt

 

[Rudolph]

In British common law the correct style for a married woman is Mrs John Smith, not Mrs Jane Smith. So we have Princess William or Princess Edward.

This style was extended to foreign princesses as well. Princess Alice of Battenberg was Princess Andrew of Greece and Denmark.

Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna of Russia was Princess Nicholas of Greece and Denmark.

Does Belgium not use common law for their royals?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

In Belgium a woman cannot use her husband's name or surname for legal purposes. The official name and title of the then Princess Mathilde were
La Princesse Mathilde, Marie, Christine, Ghislaine, Comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique
Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

Do Dutch or French languages have such a form of address as Princess Hasband'sName of Belgium at all? I doubt

At the very least, the court addresses Léa by her husband's name in both languages.