The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > Royal Family of Belgium

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #161  
Old 05-20-2016, 09:46 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 3,410
Duc made a general sweeping comment that only Spanish aristocrats daughters inherit titles. That is false.


We're not talking SCG, we're talking simply Sax-Coburg. That is the name of the family house. This would be a new title and creation. If it was created for Anna-Astrid, then whoever created it would have the ability to decide if it could be inherited and by whom. There are aristocratic titles outside Spain inheritable by women. I don't see Philippe creating a title under salic law, when his own daughter is his heir.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 05-21-2016, 08:03 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Meaning Gabriel, Emmanuel and Eleanor's children, as long as they marry with permission, will be prince/ss of Belgium.
Their children will be Prince/ss of Belgium even if the parents marry without permission; the royal decree does not even require that the parents be married.
Quote:
Article 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Roi ainsi que les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Prince héritier ou de la Princesse héritière portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I guess that would be possible, but it would require another royal decree. The new title would be a princely title in the nobility of Belgium and the usual style would still be HH.
No such royal decree has been issued, thus if the alleged title exists, it would be a Belgian courtesy title, comparable to the title "Princess Amedeo of Belgium." (Article 4 of the decree of Nov. 12, 2015, which involves descendants who do not have the title Prince/ss of Belgium, nonetheless calls them Princes and Princesses, which is presumably by courtesy.)
Quote:
Art. 4. Les Princes et Princesses, issus de la descendance directe de Sa Majesté Léopold, Georges, Chrétien, Frédéric de Saxe-Cobourg qui ne sont pas visés par les articles 1er à 3, portent à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils le portent, de leur nom de famille, les titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance.
12 NOVEMBRE 2015. - Arrêté royal relatif à l'octroi du titre de Prince ou Princesse de Belgique
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 05-21-2016, 11:26 PM
CyrilVladisla's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Conneaut, United States
Posts: 2,870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
Accoding to wikipedia, she is Archduchess Anna Astrid of Austria-Este.
I think it's best solution (until we will see official information).
People Magazine mentions Princess Anna Astrid. However, the article mentions the child will not be a Princess of Belgium.
Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 08-30-2016, 12:54 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 264
Le Soir has two articles by Martine Dubuisson about the Royal Decree of November 12, 2015 and royal titles and surnames.

Quel nom pour les princes qui ne seront plus «de Belgique»?

Antoine Clevers from La Libre wrote about the same topics back in November.

Le Roi limite l'octroi du titre de "prince de Belgique" - La Libre.be

Their stories are based on unnamed sources and have not been authenticated.


The preamble of the Royal Decree mentions that, considering the laws regulating the transmission of family names and the National Register, and the involvement of royal family members in economic life, "it is advisable to as much as possible avoid confusion between the family name and the titles".

12 NOVEMBER 2015. - Koninklijk besluit betreffende de verlening van de titel van Prins of Prinses van België

The explanation given by Mr. Clevers:
- An objective of the Royal Decree was to avoid the confusion between the family name and the title. The royal family's real surname is Saxe-Coburg and not "of Belgium", which comes from a confusion between the title of Prince of Belgium and the name Saxe-Coburg.
- From January 1, 2016, it is legally required to indicate on identity documents both a surname (Saxe-Coburg) and a title (Prince).
- King Philippe seeks to avoid his younger children using their title for special privileges in their future professional lives.

Ms. Dubuisson says that in Belgian nobiliary law, the surname and the title are supposed to be separate, but the distinction was never clear in the royal family. In their birth certificates, it was the title which appeared in the box "name". The surname "of Saxe-Coburg" or "of Belgium" derived from the title Prince of Saxe-Coburg or Prince of Belgium.

Mr. Clevers, and Place Royale, wrote that the grandchildren of Astrid and Laurent would be Princes(ses) of Saxe-Coburg. However, Ms. Dubuisson only says that the Princes(ses) who are not Princes(ses) of Belgium could be called "of Saxe-Coburg", since they are descendants of Leopold I. She states that the Palace wants to limit the number of people who wear the name "of Belgium", and the "of Belgiums" are charged with choosing a surname for their children from the "titles to which they are entitled by their ancestry" (article 4 of the Royal Decree).

In fact, Prince and Princess Amedeo used the same surname and title that appeared on the birth certificate of Amedeo in 1986 for their daughter. When Amedeo became Prince of Belgium in 1991, his birth certificate was completed with a "marginal note" that he is also "prince of Belgium", but the surname was not changed. On Princess Anna Astrid's birth certificate, "Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" was indicated under the heading "name and forenames".

(What would be interesting to see is how she is addressed by the Palace, since it gives Prince Lorenz and his family the style of HRH rather than HI&RH, and the Royal Decree granted the style of HRH to the Princes(ses) of Belgium alone.)
Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 08-30-2016, 01:48 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 1,784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Le Soir has two articles by Martine Dubuisson about the Royal Decree of November 12, 2015 and royal titles and surnames.

Quel nom pour les princes qui ne seront plus «de Belgique»?

Antoine Clevers from La Libre wrote about the same topics back in November.

Le Roi limite l'octroi du titre de "prince de Belgique" - La Libre.be

Their stories are based on unnamed sources and have not been authenticated.


The preamble of the Royal Decree mentions that, considering the laws regulating the transmission of family names and the National Register, and the involvement of royal family members in economic life, "it is advisable to as much as possible avoid confusion between the family name and the titles".

12 NOVEMBER 2015. - Koninklijk besluit betreffende de verlening van de titel van Prins of Prinses van België

The explanation given by Mr. Clevers:
- An objective of the Royal Decree was to avoid the confusion between the family name and the title. The royal family's real surname is Saxe-Coburg and not "of Belgium", which comes from a confusion between the title of Prince of Belgium and the name Saxe-Coburg.
- From January 1, 2016, it is legally required to indicate on identity documents both a surname (Saxe-Coburg) and a title (Prince).
- King Philippe seeks to avoid his younger children using their title for special privileges in their future professional lives.

Ms. Dubuisson says that in Belgian nobiliary law, the surname and the title are supposed to be separate, but the distinction was never clear in the royal family. In their birth certificates, it was the title which appeared in the box "name". The surname "of Saxe-Coburg" or "of Belgium" derived from the title Prince of Saxe-Coburg or Prince of Belgium.

Mr. Clevers, and Place Royale, wrote that the grandchildren of Astrid and Laurent would be Princes(ses) of Saxe-Coburg. However, Ms. Dubuisson only says that the Princes(ses) who are not Princes(ses) of Belgium could be called "of Saxe-Coburg", since they are descendants of Leopold I. She states that the Palace wants to limit the number of people who wear the name "of Belgium", and the "of Belgiums" are charged with choosing a surname for their children from the "titles to which they are entitled by their ancestry" (article 4 of the Royal Decree).

In fact, Prince and Princess Amedeo used the same surname and title that appeared on the birth certificate of Amedeo in 1986 for their daughter. When Amedeo became Prince of Belgium in 1991, his birth certificate was completed with a "marginal note" that he is also "prince of Belgium", but the surname was not changed. On Princess Anna Astrid's birth certificate, "Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" was indicated under the heading "name and forenames".

(What would be interesting to see is how she is addressed by the Palace, since it gives Prince Lorenz and his family the style of HRH rather than HI&RH, and the Royal Decree granted the style of HRH to the Princes(ses) of Belgium alone.)
King Philippe's children and future grandchildren do not have a family name. According to the Royal Decree, Princess Elisabeth for example is named "Her Royal Highness the Princess Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchess of Brabant, Princess of Belgium", whereas Gabriel, who doesn't have a dynastic title of his own like his sister, is simply "His Royal Highness the Prince Gabriel Baudouin Charles Marie, Prince of Belgium ".

Amedeo, on the other hand, can use his father's family titles, which are not Belgian dynastic titles, after his title of Prince of Belgium, and may use his family name before it. It is not clear if he is legally entiltled to use the style HI&RH in Belgium or not, but it is clear in the royal decree that he is entitled to be addressed as HRH.


In other words, under the terms of the royal decree, Amedeio's style in Belgium should be IMHO: "His Royal Highness the Prince Amedeo Marie Joseph Carl Pierre Philippe Paola Marcus d'Aviano (von Habsburg-Lothringen ?), Prince of Belgium, Archduke of Austria-Este, (Prince Imperial of Austria), (Prince Royal of Hungary, Croatia and Bohemia) ."
Reply With Quote
  #166  
Old 08-30-2016, 02:52 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 264
The Royal Decree of 2015, as distinct from the Royal Decree of December 2, 1991, allows all of the Princes(ses) of Belgium, the children and future grandchildren of King Philippe along with the children of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent, to use a family name and/or extra family titles.

1991

"Article 1. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et Princesses issus de la descendance en ligne directe de S.A.R. le Prince Albert, Félix, Humbert, Théodore, Christian, Eugène, Marie, Prince de Liège, Prince de Belgique, seront qualifiés Princes ou Princesses de Belgique, à la suite de leurs prénoms."

2015 (Children and grandchildren of King Philippe)

"Article 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Roi ainsi que les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Prince héritier ou de la Princesse héritière portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale."

2015 (Children of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent)

"Art. 2. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe de Sa Majesté le Roi Albert II portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale."
Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 08-30-2016, 03:03 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 1,784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The Royal Decree of 2015, as distinct from the Royal Decree of December 2, 1991, allows all of the Princes(ses) of Belgium, the children and future grandchildren of King Philippe along with the children of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent, to use a family name and/or extra family titles.
Yes, but only provided that they use a family name. My point exactly was that King Philippe's children do not use any family name.
Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 08-30-2016, 05:02 PM
maria-olivia's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 3,686
On their identity card it is written de Belgique .
At school they are Elisabeth , Gabriel , Emmanuel , Eleonore van Belgie
Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 08-30-2016, 05:05 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Yes, but only provided that they use a family name. My point exactly was that King Philippe's children do not use any family name.
I am not sure if King Philippe's children use a family name in their identity documents, as I have not seen any transcriptions, but Antoine Clevers wrote that a surname would be required from January 1, 2016.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
On their identity card it is written de Belgique .
At school they are Elisabeth , Gabriel , Emmanuel , Eleonore van Belgie
Is it written "Elisabeth, Princesse de Belgique", "Princesse Elisabeth de Belgique", or only "Elisabeth de Belgique"?
Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 08-30-2016, 07:37 PM
maria-olivia's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 3,686
Her Identity card is Elisabeth de Belgique/van Belgie.
At School they are normal students no Prince/Princess etc..
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles btsnyder British Royals 552 09-25-2016 03:01 PM
Titles of the Royal Family curious Royal Family of Spain 183 08-02-2016 01:08 PM
Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family Australian The Royal Family of Greece 404 08-08-2015 12:55 PM
Belgian Abdication & Installation: Changes in Titles, Dotation and the Court leidi Royal Family of Belgium 30 07-23-2013 07:07 PM
Historical/Substantive titles within the Belgian Royal Family LadyLeana Belgian Royal History 14 02-21-2009 07:25 AM




Popular Tags
ascot 2016 best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit catherine middleton style coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit current events duchess of cambridge e-mail fashion poll grahamm grand duke jean greece kate middleton king abdulah ii king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament photo picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles princess eugenie eveningwear princess ingrid alexandra princess madeleine princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania revolution royal fashion september 2016 state visit state visit to denmark succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:50 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises