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  #141  
Old 01-03-2016, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
My understanding is that unmarried women are regularly referred to as Madame (or Mevrouw) in Belgium. All the same, the court always used the old-fashioned Miss (Juffrouw or Mademoiselle) with Elisabetta, Mathilde and Claire before the weddings.
Not always Mademoiselle. To make things complicated: in unmarried French aristocrat ladies are Demoiselle, like the Dutch equivalent Jonkvrouw.

See the Act of Marriage of Philippe and Mathilde:

" [...] et Demoiselle Mathilde Marie Christine Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, née à Uccle, le vingt janvier mil neuf cent septante-trois [...] "

(and Demoiselle Mathilde Marie Christine Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, born in Uccle, the Twentieth of January Nineteen hundred and seventy-three)




" [...] Dont Acte fait en présence de [...] Demoiselle Élisabeth Marie Hedwige Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, soeur de l'Epouse, âgée de vingt-deux ans, domiciliée à Bastogne, et de Demoiselle Stéphanie Priscilla Marie-Anne Jane de Radigues de Chennevière, ni parente ni alliée des Epoux, âgée de vingt-quatre ans, domiciliée à Forest. [...] "

( "The Act was set up in the presence of [...] Demoiselle Élisabeth Marie Hedwige Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, sister of the female spouse, aged Twenty-two years and residing in Bastogne, and of Demoiselle Stéphanie Priscilla Marie-Anne Jane de Radigues de Chennevière, neither parented nor allied to the spouses, aged Twenty-four years and residing in Forest. [...] " )

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  #142  
Old 04-10-2016, 11:44 AM
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The royal palace referred to Princess Elisabetta and her husband as "Prince and Princess Amedeo" when it confirmed her pregnancy to RTL.

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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Sire, Mevrouw , Madame
So were called Queen Fabiola and Queen Paola.
Queen Mathilde, on the other hand, is said to prefer "Majesty".

According to the made-over website, the kings should only be addressed as Sire (in Dutch and French), while the queens may be addressed as either Majesty or Mevrouw/Madame. The princes and princesses may be addressed as Royal Highness or as Monseigneur (in Dutch and French) or Mevrouw/Madame.

http://www.monarchie.be/nl/monarchie/protocol
http://www.monarchie.be/fr/monarchie/protocole
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  #143  
Old 05-20-2016, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The royal palace referred to Princess Elisabetta and her husband as "Prince and Princess Amedeo" when it confirmed her pregnancy to RTL.
Elisabetta was again styled Princess Amedeo in the official announcement of her daughter's birth.
http://www.facebook.com/BeMonarchie/...84077428522557

The Twitter account of Place Royale on RTL claims that the daughter of Prince and Princess Amedeo holds the title Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. In November, La Libre similarly claimed that the grandchildren of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent would have the title Prince or Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. Both stories are unconfirmed.
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  #144  
Old 05-20-2016, 03:28 PM
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An elegant sollution if it is true, esp. for Laurent's children. In the case of Anna Amalia I would have preferred incorporating her into the Belgian nobility as 'Princess de Habsburg-Este', but well. Let's see if the palace gives any clarity on the matter soon. Probably not...

I also noticed the 'Princesse Amedeo'. Not that odd as the nobility is usually still referred to in these ways in society magazines, invitations or family advertisements in newspapers. But f.e. the countess Thierry de Limburg-Stirum calls herself Katia della Faille professionally.
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  #145  
Old 05-20-2016, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The Twitter account of Place Royale on RTL claims that the daughter of Prince and Princess Amedeo holds the title Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. In November, La Libre similarly claimed that the grandchildren of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent would have the title Prince or Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. Both stories are unconfirmed.
That's interesting and I also wonder if the grandchildren of Prince Laurent would be styled HRH Prince/Princess of Saxe-Cobourg or just H.H.Prince/Princess of Saxe-Cobourg?
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  #146  
Old 05-20-2016, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Elisabetta was again styled Princess Amedeo in the official announcement of her daughter's birth.
http://www.facebook.com/BeMonarchie/...84077428522557

The Twitter account of Place Royale on RTL claims that the daughter of Prince and Princess Amedeo holds the title Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. In November, La Libre similarly claimed that the grandchildren of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent would have the title Prince or Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. Both stories are unconfirmed.
Impossible. Only in Spain titles can be inherited by a female when she happens to be the eldest child. In all other countries and nobiliary systems titles are only hereditary via the senior male agnatic lineage.

To this adds that after WWI the Belgian monarchy has ended the use of its German titulature and now, more than a century later, it is a Princess von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha while her father is an Imperial and Royal Highness, an Archduke of Austria-Este, Prince Royal of Hungary and Duke of Modena... If there is any baby with no need for fantasy titles, it is this dazzling highborn Anna Astrid... Just nonsens by twittering folks without any clue.
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  #147  
Old 05-20-2016, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
[...] But f.e. the countess Thierry de Limburg-Stirum calls herself Katia della Faille professionally.
On itself that is 100% correct. Her own name is Jonkvrouw Katia della Faille de Leverghem and she is Gravin Thierry van Limburg-Stirum by marriage. This style may be oldfashioned, it is also perfectly clear who is who and what.

Laurentien Brinkhorst uses her own name, for an example as author of the Mr Finney books. Being 'de prinses Constantijn' may sound oldfashioned but it shows what she is by virtue of marriage. The difference between born royals (prinses Astrid van België) and married ladies ("prinses Claire van België") gets completely confused. With "de prinses Laurent" it is immediaty clear who and what Claire Coombs is.

If that is archaïc, why then not make a plea for "mevrouw Van België"? Or is someone claiming that "prinses" or "koningin" is not archaïc?
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  #148  
Old 05-20-2016, 04:27 PM
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Accoding to wikipedia, she is Archduchess Anna Astrid of Austria-Este.
I think it's best solution (until we will see official information).
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  #149  
Old 05-20-2016, 04:31 PM
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Interesting. Then how does one explain Astrid's children are Prince/Princess of Belgium? They certainly didn't inherit the title from their father now did they? And if Philippe had not recently changed the rules, so only children/grandchildren of the king can be Prince/ss of Belgium, Amedeo's sisters would have passed the title on as well. Eleanor's children will be entitled, like her older sister's kids, to prince/ss of Belgium.

When speaking strictly nobility and not royal titles, it is not unheard of for women to inherit titles either. Yes, Spain is the only one that has changed the laws for all titles, but there are titles on an individual basis that have been inherited in the female line as well.

Clan Fraser in Scotland is a perfect example. It is male preference, but not salic inheritance. The current head of the clan is Marjorie 'Flora" Fraser, Lady Saltoun. She was the only elected member of the house of lords until her retirement. Her late husband Alexander was the only son of Princess Patricia. Her heir is her eldest daughter Katherine, Mistress Saltoun. After Katherine, Katherine's son will inherit. Alexander has older sisters, but because its male preference, he is heir. His sister Louise was heir prior to his birth though.

But back to Anna Astrid, I agree. It was determined by Philippe, that titles would only be inherited by children/grand children of the king. The baby will have titles, but those of Amedeo's Austrian side, which are of course simply a courtesy title.
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  #150  
Old 05-20-2016, 06:22 PM
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The children of Princess Astrid were created Prince (Princess) of Belgium by Law, so they became quadruple titled to speak: Austrian Empire, Kingdom of Hungary, Dukedom of Modena ánd Kingdom of Belgium.

Back then Prince Philippe and Prince Laurent still were unmarried and had no heirs. On a later date also Archduke Lorenz was created a Prince of Belgium. The Belgian title is only hereditary for children of the King and of the Heir, so the daughter of Amedeo only has the hereditary titles of her father: HI&RH Archduchess Anna Astrid of Austria-Este, in short.
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  #151  
Old 05-20-2016, 06:45 PM
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No. Lorenz was created a Prince of Belgium by law. Not the children.

Prior to 1991, Belgium practiced agnatic primogeniture. Astrid was not in line for the throne, and her children were not either. As such Maria Laura and Amedeo were not born Prince/ss of Belgium as they were born prior to the change. Baudouin is said to have pushed for the change to limit the chance Laurent would be king, as he had issues with his nephew. The change placed Astrid and her children ahead of him. Since Joachim, Maria Laetitia and Luisa Maria were born after the change, they were all titled Prince/ss of Belgium at birth. The change in succession, like in Sweden, was done retroactively (applying to all descendents of Albert) so when the law was passed, Astrid's children automatically inherited the Belgian titles from their mother.

The same will happen with Eleanor and Elisabeth's children. As grandchildren of King Philippe, they will inherit Prince/ss of Belgium from their mother. It will be their spouses that a law would be required to grant the spouse a title as well.
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  #152  
Old 05-20-2016, 06:51 PM
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There was a decree on 2 December 1991 that all descendants of Albert, then-Prince of Liege were entitled to Prince/ss of Belgium. Archduke Lorenz was created Prince of Belgium in 1995.

A new decree on 12 November 2015 restricted the Prince/ss of Belgium to children and grandchildren of the Sovereign, and children and grandchildren of the heir going forward. The 2015 decree doesn't remove the title from existing Prince/ss of Belgium.

2015 decree:
LOI - WET
Le Roi limite l’octroi du titre de "prince de Belgique" - La Libre.be
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  #153  
Old 05-20-2016, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Belgian title is only hereditary for children of the King and of the Heir.
Small correction, the title is only hereditary for the children and Grandchildren of the king. All Philippe's future grandchildren will be entitled to the title. Meaning Gabriel, Emmanuel and Eleanor's children, as long as they marry with permission, will be prince/ss of Belgium.

Anna Astrid is not a granddaughter of the king, therefore she is not a princess of Belgium.
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  #154  
Old 05-20-2016, 07:01 PM
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The daddy in this thread -Amedeo- who was born in 1986 was created Prince of Belgium in the 1990's. As everyone already noted, the Belgians forgot (?) to limit the descendants of Prince Albert in both male and female lineage, with the risk of an exploding number of Princes and Princesses of Belgium. King Philippe was so wise to limit it with a new Decree. So in effect the Belgian titles of Amedeo and his siblings, as well of Laurent's children, have become ad-personam and non-hereditary.
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  #155  
Old 05-20-2016, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Small correction, the title is only hereditary for the children and Grandchildren of the king. All Philippe's future grandchildren will be entitled to the title. Meaning Gabriel, Emmanuel and Eleanor's children, as long as they marry with permission, will be prince/ss of Belgium.

Anna Astrid is not a granddaughter of the king, therefore she is not a princess of Belgium.
I dare to bet a good bottle of wine that this will be restricted furtherer. The King has a big family and -like in other monarchies- the focus is to limit it to the core royals. There will be a new debate about the positions of Astrid and Laurent. And when Elisabeth, Emmanuel, Gabriel, etc. get childre who are all HRH Prince or Princess of Belgium too, the clutter of royals remain. Typical Belgium, never the guts to make a clear line.
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  #156  
Old 05-20-2016, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Elisabetta was again styled Princess Amedeo in the official announcement of her daughter's birth.
http://www.facebook.com/BeMonarchie/...84077428522557

The Twitter account of Place Royale on RTL claims that the daughter of Prince and Princess Amedeo holds the title Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. In November, La Libre similarly claimed that the grandchildren of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent would have the title Prince or Princess of Saxe-Cobourg. Both stories are unconfirmed.
I don't think she can be a Princess of Saxe-Coburg as King Albert I gave up that title for himself and for all his future descendants, didn't he ?
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  #157  
Old 05-20-2016, 09:18 PM
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Leopold III I believe was the last holder of the title, could be wrong.


Saxe-Coburg-Gotha is salic though, even if the Belgians hadn't given it up. As the son of the female line, neither Amedeo nor his daughter would be able to inherit it. If it were to be granted to them, I would think it would have to be granted specially by the current head of the family, Andreas.


I think the difference being made here is the dropping of Gotha. The suggested name is Princess Anna Astrid of Saxe-Coburg (no Gotha). The Belgians belong to the royal house of Saxe-Coburg, Amedeo does on his mother's side. It would be along the lines of Friso being given the title Prince of Orange-Nasau when he married. Or the Swedish princes who married morgantically being named Prince Bernadotte. Or the children of Prince Louis of Luxembourg who are Princes of Nassau instead of Luxembourg.


But considering Amedeo has titles (all be it courtsy) titles from his father, and his daughter is an Archduchess and Princess through that, there is no real need.
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  #158  
Old 05-20-2016, 09:20 PM
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That's interesting and I also wonder if the grandchildren of Prince Laurent would be styled HRH Prince/Princess of Saxe-Cobourg or just H.H.Prince/Princess of Saxe-Cobourg?
The Princes of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha are styled as "Highness".
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  #159  
Old 05-20-2016, 09:35 PM
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But Laurent's children wouldn't be Prince/ss of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. They would simply be Prince/ss of Saxe-Coburg. Like Prince Friso of Orange-Nassau, Prince Noah and Gabriel of Nassau and so on. It would be a new creation by Philippe, so it would fall to him at what HH, H or what designation they got.


And as far as I recall, Andreas and his son are HH not simply highness.
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Old 05-20-2016, 09:37 PM
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Interesting. Then how does one explain Astrid's children are Prince/Princess of Belgium? They certainly didn't inherit the title from their father now did they? And if Philippe had not recently changed the rules, so only children/grandchildren of the king can be Prince/ss of Belgium, Amedeo's sisters would have passed the title on as well. Eleanor's children will be entitled, like her older sister's kids, to prince/ss of Belgium.
There was a royal decree issued by King Baudouin that extended the title of Prince/Princess of Belgium to all descendants of his brother Albert (the title itself was not automatic with the constitutional amendment that introduced equal primogeniture). King Philippe's recent royal decree restricted the title to his own children and grandchildren, plus the grandchildren of Princess Elisabeth, while, at the same time, keeping Astrid's, Laurent's, and their respective children's titles.

Duc's point was that, even if Albert held the title of Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, which he did not BTW, Astrid could not have passed it to her children anyway , as the title can only be inherited in male line.

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But Laurent's children wouldn't be Prince/ss of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. They would simply be Prince/ss of Saxe-Coburg. Like Prince Friso of Orange-Nassau, Prince Noah and Gabriel of Nassau and so on. It would be a new creation by Philippe, so it would fall to him at what HH, H or what designation they got.
I guess that would be possible, but it would require another royal decree. The new title would be a princely title in the nobility of Belgium and the usual style would still be HH.
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