The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > Royal Family of Belgium

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #121  
Old 01-01-2016, 12:36 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Gonzales, Louisiana, United States
Posts: 623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


The royal court of Belgium uses the titles Princess Alexandre, Princess Mathilde (now Queen), Princess Claire, and Princess Elisabetta respectively.

Princess Alexandre: La Monarchie belge: Accueil - Actualités - Agenda - Décès du Prince Alexandre de Belgique
Princess Mathilde: The Belgian Monarchy: Home - Portrait of Princess Mathilde
Princess Claire: The Belgian Monarchy: Home - Royal Family - Princess Claire
Princess Elisabetta: http://www.koningsfan.dse.nl/bedankkaartje231.jpg


I fail to see why the court styles Léa as Princess Alexandre and Elisabetta as Princess Elisabetta, but it clearly does not hinge on a title being "in her own right". Léa was created a Princess of Belgium by a Royal Decree and is therefore comparable to Mathilde and Claire, whereas Elisabetta uses her husband's title as a courtesy.
- Léa Wolman was never created "HRH Princess of Belgium" in her own right. According to Wikipedia: "The couple [Alexandre and Lea] had no children together, and the marriage was kept secret until 1998, as reportedly the prince feared his mother would disapprove. Alexander's marriage contravened Article 85 of the Belgian constitution, which deprived the right of succession to the throne any descendant of King Leopold I who marries without the sovereign's permission."
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 01-01-2016, 07:39 AM
Lee-Z's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Heerlen, Netherlands
Posts: 2,147
^^^^ as I understand it, Princess Lea was the last princess in Belgium who received her title "because of het marriage to a prince"; this was changed end 1991, but because they were married before that, nothing changed in her title

See: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_van_Belgi%C3%AB
translated
__________________

__________________
Wisdom begins in wonder - Socrates
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 01-01-2016, 07:50 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
According to Wikipedia: "The couple [Alexandre and Lea] had no children together, and the marriage was kept secret until 1998, as reportedly the prince feared his mother would disapprove. Alexander's marriage contravened Article 85 of the Belgian constitution, which deprived the right of succession to the throne any descendant of King Leopold I who marries without the sovereign's permission."
That is correct, but the Royal Decree of 1891 created her a Princess of Belgium all the same: "Les princesses unies par mariage aux princes de notre maison royale seront qualifiées de la même manière à la suite des noms et titres qui leur sont propres." Marriage without permission or lack of succession rights (Alexander's succession rights were renounced by his father before his birth) does not have any effect on titles under the 1891, 1991, or 2015 decrees.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 01-01-2016, 09:51 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,920
The question was if Donna Elisabetta was -like Léa- a Princess by virtue of marriage and the answer is yes, as it has been showed in this official card from the Belgian Court ("With pleasure Princess Elisabetta received the wishes for her 28th birthday you were so kind to send. She sincerely thanks you for this fine attention".)
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 01-01-2016, 11:05 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 264


But Princess Alexander is not "like" Princess Elisabetta. Léa does not have a courtesy title, she has a title that was formalized by a Royal Decree like the titles of Prince Lorenz, Princess Claire, Princess Elisabeth, or Prince Amedeo.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 01-02-2016, 10:10 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


But Princess Alexander is not "like" Princess Elisabetta. Léa does not have a courtesy title, she has a title that was formalized by a Royal Decree like the titles of Prince Lorenz, Princess Claire, Princess Elisabeth, or Prince Amedeo.
Well, Máxima is formally not a Queen at all since her legal title is HRH Princess Máxima of the Netherlands but neither the Court nor the media nor the people use her official title.

Camilla is The Princess of Wales by virtue of marriage but she is always addressed as The Duchess of Cornwall.

James Mountbatten-Windsor simply is HRH Prince James of Wessex by birthright but everyone knows him as James, Viscount Severn.

Liliane Baels never was created Princesse de Réthy but that did not stop the Court, the media and the people using that title anyway.

As spouse to Prince Alexander respectively to Prince Amedeo, the formal courtesy titles are Princess Alexander and Princess Amedeo. But it is seen as more friendly and more personal to address them as Princess Léa and Princess Elisabetta. And that is indeed what the Court does.
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 01-02-2016, 11:17 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 264
I am sorry, I don't quite understand what you're saying. Is it your opinion that Princess Alexander's title of Princess of Belgium is only a courtesy title?
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 01-02-2016, 11:18 AM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 3,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
As spouse to Prince Alexander respectively to Prince Amedeo, the formal courtesy titles are Princess Alexander and Princess Amedeo. But it is seen as more friendly and more personal to address them as Princess Léa and Princess Elisabetta. And that is indeed what the Court does.
It is only that other Princesses have to be vreated a Princess in their own right like Claire and Mathilde. They could simply refer to all married in Princessess as Princess Claire, Princess Mathilde etc. It is like this in the scandinavian monarchies.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 01-02-2016, 11:55 AM
Lee-Z's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Heerlen, Netherlands
Posts: 2,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Well, Máxima is formally not a Queen at all since her legal title is HRH Princess Máxima of the Netherlands but neither the Court nor the media nor the people use her official title.

Camilla is The Princess of Wales by virtue of marriage but she is always addressed as The Duchess of Cornwall.

James Mountbatten-Windsor simply is HRH Prince James of Wessex by birthright but everyone knows him as James, Viscount Severn.

Liliane Baels never was created Princesse de Réthy but that did not stop the Court, the media and the people using that title anyway.

As spouse to Prince Alexander respectively to Prince Amedeo, the formal courtesy titles are Princess Alexander and Princess Amedeo. But it is seen as more friendly and more personal to address them as Princess Léa and Princess Elisabetta. And that is indeed what the Court does.
But....isn't the point that Princess Lea isn't just addressed Princess Lea because it sounds friendlier, but because that in fact is her title?
And that that is what makes the difference between her and for instance Elisabetta who might be friendly named "Princess Elisabetta" but in fact that is not her title because it actually is "Princess Amadeo"?

Sorry about harping on about this, but i try to understand how this works...
__________________
Wisdom begins in wonder - Socrates
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 01-02-2016, 12:54 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
But....isn't the point that Princess Lea isn't just addressed Princess Lea because it sounds friendlier, but because that in fact is her title?
And that that is what makes the difference between her and for instance Elisabetta who might be friendly named "Princess Elisabetta" but in fact that is not her title because it actually is "Princess Amadeo"?

Sorry about harping on about this, but i try to understand how this works...
Well... she may be "Princess Léa" but look at this:

The Court (!!!): La Monarchie belge: Accueil - Actualités - Agenda - Décès du Prince Alexandre de Belgique

Her very own charity fund: Fonds d'Entraide Prince et Princesse Alexandre de Belgique

Or the RTBf (the French-speaking Public Broadcaster): La Princesse Alexandre de Belgique du 16 mars 2015, C'est du Belge : RTBF Vidéo

The Royal Sea Cadets School: Nieuwsbrief



So morale of the story: it can be Princess Alexander or Princess Léa, they use it both. It can be Princess Amadeo or Princess Elisabetta, they use it both as well.
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 01-02-2016, 03:25 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
But....isn't the point that Princess Lea isn't just addressed Princess Lea because it sounds friendlier, but because that in fact is her title?
The choice of name is ostensibly the woman's or the royal court's decision.

Princess Alexander (Léa) has a substantive legal title by virtue of marrying Prince Alexander when the decree of 1891, which automatically created a woman who marries a Prince of Belgium a Princess of Belgium, was in force.
Quote:
Art. 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les princes et les princesses issus de la descendance masculine et directe de feu Sa Majesté Léopold Ier, seront qualifiés de princes et princesses de Belgique, à la suite de leurs prénoms et avant la mention de leur titre originaire de duc ou duchesse de Saxe.
Les princesses unies par mariage aux princes de notre maison royale seront qualifiées de la même manière à la suite des noms et titres qui leur sont propres.
This decree was repealed in December 1991, however, the titles created by it were preserved, which is confirmed by Article 3 of the 2015 decree with respect to royal titles. (If not, Prince Alexander and his sisters Marie-Christine and Esmeralda would have also lost their titles.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
And that that is what makes the difference between her and for instance Elisabetta who might be friendly named "Princess Elisabetta" but in fact that is not her title because it actually is "Princess Amadeo"?

Sorry about harping on about this, but i try to understand how this works...
Elisabetta's formal social title written in the court's thank-you notes is Princess Elisabetta: http://www.koningsfan.dse.nl/bedankkaartje231.jpg
Her legal title written in a royal decree issued last November is Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
This corresponds to Belgian noblemen's wives, who are commoners legally but are traditionally addressed by their husbands' titles in society.
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 01-02-2016, 05:23 PM
maria-olivia's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 3,686
Esmeralda remains Princess of Belgium her whole life; her Children are Alexandra and Leopoldo Moncando.
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 01-02-2016, 05:47 PM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 15,815
Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Esmeralda remains Princess of Belgium her whole life; her Children are Alexandra and Leopoldo Moncando.
Her full style is Her Royal Highness Princess Marie-Esméralda of Belgium, Lady Moncada,I forgot her husband was awarded a Knighthood some years ago.
__________________
20th of December 1963,Birth of The Infanta Elena, Duchess of Lugo
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 01-02-2016, 06:38 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Gonzales, Louisiana, United States
Posts: 623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The choice of name is ostensibly the woman's or the royal court's decision.

Princess Alexander (Léa) has a substantive legal title by virtue of marrying Prince Alexander when the decree of 1891, which automatically created a woman who marries a Prince of Belgium a Princess of Belgium, was in force. This decree was repealed in December 1991, however, the titles created by it were preserved, which is confirmed by Article 3 of the 2015 decree with respect to royal titles. (If not, Prince Alexander and his sisters Marie-Christine and Esmeralda would have also lost their titles.)



Elisabetta's formal social title written in the court's thank-you notes is Princess Elisabetta: http://www.koningsfan.dse.nl/bedankkaartje231.jpg
Her legal title written in a royal decree issued last November is Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
This corresponds to Belgian noblemen's wives, who are commoners legally but are traditionally addressed by their husbands' titles in society.
Im somewhat confused. In English, an unmarried woman carries the generic title of "Miss." But here Elisabetta is clearly being referred to as a married woman, "Mrs.," but her last name is still the same as her unmarried last name. So, for instance, my name before marriage is Miss Jane Brown, then when I get married and if I still choose to use my unmarried (or "maiden") name it is still Miss Jane Brown or Ms. Jane Brown, not Mrs. Jane Brown (unless my husband has the exact same last name as my maiden name). If Miss Jane Brown marries Mr Charles Black, then she becomes Mrs. Jane Black. Same with the Duke of York ' s ex-wife. Miss Sarah Ferguson married HRH Prince Andrew of Great Britain, even if she would not have gained a title, she would not have been known as Mrs. Sarah Ferguson. So why the "Mrs." title in front of Lili's maiden name?
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 01-02-2016, 07:31 PM
Lee-Z's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Heerlen, Netherlands
Posts: 2,147
^^^^^ i think this is a little different; in dutch there used to be a similar difference between Mevrouw (married) and Mejuffrouw (unmarried), but this difference is rarely used anymore, all women are Mevrouw unless a woman explicitely wants differently

but i think this is another matter from the royal titles
__________________
Wisdom begins in wonder - Socrates
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old 01-02-2016, 07:41 PM
maria-olivia's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 3,686
Thanks for correcting An Ard Ri.
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 01-02-2016, 08:08 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 1,784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
^^^^^ i think this is a little different; in dutch there used to be a similar difference between Mevrouw (married) and Mejuffrouw (unmarried), but this difference is rarely used anymore, all women are Mevrouw unless a woman explicitely wants differently

but i think this is another matter from the royal titles

The French version of the royal decree refers to her as "Madame" not "Mademoiselle". I suppose then that "Mewrouw" in the Dutch version is indeed supposed to mean "Mrs" rather "Ms".
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 01-02-2016, 09:19 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Gonzales, Louisiana, United States
Posts: 623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The French version of the royal decree refers to her as "Madame" not "Mademoiselle". I suppose then that "Mewrouw" in the Dutch version is indeed supposed to mean "Mrs" rather "Ms".
Or did you mean to state "Ms." rather than "Mrs." (=married/divorced, still using ex-husband ' s surname)?
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 01-02-2016, 09:35 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 264
My understanding is that unmarried women are regularly referred to as Madame (or Mevrouw) in Belgium. All the same, the court always used the old-fashioned Miss (Juffrouw or Mademoiselle) with Elisabetta, Mathilde and Claire before the weddings.
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 01-03-2016, 08:04 AM
maria-olivia's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 3,686
Sire, Mevrouw , Madame
So were called Queen Fabiola and Queen Paola.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles btsnyder British Royals 552 09-25-2016 03:01 PM
Titles of the Royal Family curious Royal Family of Spain 183 08-02-2016 01:08 PM
Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family Australian The Royal Family of Greece 404 08-08-2015 12:55 PM
Belgian Abdication & Installation: Changes in Titles, Dotation and the Court leidi Royal Family of Belgium 30 07-23-2013 07:07 PM
Historical/Substantive titles within the Belgian Royal Family LadyLeana Belgian Royal History 14 02-21-2009 07:25 AM




Popular Tags
ascot 2016 best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit catherine middleton style christening of prince oscar coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria's maternity fashion current events duchess of cambridge e-mail fashion poll grand duke jean greece jubilee celebration kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction military monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles princess madeleine princess marie princess mary princess mary and womens rights princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania queen rania style royal fashion september 2016 state visit state visit to denmark succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:28 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises