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  #101  
Old 11-30-2015, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Marchesina View Post
It was about time to modify the rules through which a member of the Belgian Royal Family and his/her issues are or aren't Prince/Princess of Belgium. It could have potentially become a mess. Especially now that government has restricted the Dotation Royale only to a few members of the family and the others, including the children of Philippe -apart from Elisabeth- will have to work outside their public duties as Princes of Belgium.
But I agree with Mbruno: IMO the Danish solution is the best. All the grandchildren are granted the title but only the heir's/heiress' children should be styled HRH, like a distinction between "royal princes" and "princes of the blood" who should be styled HH.
I like the more restrictive Dutch situation the best: only the children of the Sovereign and the Heir are Princes (Princesses). Outside the well-informed (for an example we all on the Royal Forums, with interest in royal matters), no one makes a distinction between a HRH Prince of Belgium and a HH Prince of Belgium. When grandchild nr 14 does something stupid, it is "Belgian Prince Arrested" in the newspapers, with or without HRH.

"Parking" family members outside the direct line into a noble family like the Counts/Countesses Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg (Netherlands), like the Counts/Countesses of Rosenborg (Denmark) and like the Counts/Countesses of Wisborg (Sweden) seems to work well. So to see the Danes have already thought about the future of family-members beside Prince Frederik and Prince Christian: the Queen has created all her descendants Counts/Countesses of Monpezat and it is very well possible that Prince Nikolai, Prince Felix and Prince Henrik (sons of Prince Joachim) will see their future offspring titled as Counts/Countesses of Monpezat indeed and no longer as Princes/Princesses of Denmark.

So the Belgian solution is a good step in the right direction, it is still a too large group. They already have no "grip" on Prince Laurent, what when -for an example- his son Prince Aymeric turns out to be a scandalous dude? Control is the key. The smaller the group associated with the core royal family, the better.
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  #102  
Old 11-30-2015, 04:51 PM
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I agree with you here. And although I understand that family dynamics may make it complicated to take titles away from Astrid's and Laurent's children, I find it surprising that they already decided to repeat the scenario for Philippe's grandchildren. I would say it is a good opportunity to restrict the number and keep the club exclusive.

Ideally I would prefer them to be created HH Princes of X (Cobourg or Laeken perhaps) instead of 'of Belgium'. However since there are so many princes, counts etc. around in Belgium it is odd that f.e. Laurents grandchildren will be untitled. Especially since this means that f.e. the many, many members of the many, many collatoral lines of the Merode family will have higher titles then the legitemate offspring of the RF.

Likewise I would say that in the Netherlands Constantijn's kids could have been princes of Orange-Nassau, CP's and Madeleine's children 'princes Bernadotte' etc.

But well, the powers that be decided otherwise, and so they should .
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  #103  
Old 11-30-2015, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by principessa View Post
If Prince Alexandre and Princess Lea would have had children would they be also "HRH Prince/ss of Belgium"?
LOI - WET

See the royal decree which was active from December 15, 1991 to November 12, 2015. The title would not have been automatic as they would not be descended from Prince Albert/King Albert II.
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  #104  
Old 11-30-2015, 10:32 PM
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Re: Al Bina

I would say that he informed with the palace what the best way would be. Perhaps they adviced him on this course of action as they were working on the title change but didn't think they could finish it on time for the wedding?
I see your point.
We are unable to determine the course of affairs within the Belgian royal family. The whole process could be stalled by usual bureaucracy.
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  #105  
Old 12-01-2015, 03:18 AM
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I'm not too sure how things go, but in Sweden Constitutional change had to be passed by two consecutive parliaments. It takes time and a will for change for it to pass. It also allows for the chance to legally renege if things change within that year.

It is probable that such change is as slow elsewhere.
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  #106  
Old 12-01-2015, 06:57 AM
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There is no constitutional change needed. The only thing the Belgian Constitution says is in Article 113: "The King has the right to grant nobility". The various Royal Decrees concerning the titles of the Belgian royal family are all a furtherer regulation. In the Netherlands it is regulated in article 41 of the Constitution: "The King shall organize his House, taking due account to public interest". So changes in titles do not need a constitutional change at all.
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  #107  
Old 12-05-2015, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Donna Elisabetta herself is created nothing. She can be addressed with her spouse's titles: Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Elisabetta of Belgium, Archduchess of Austria and Princess of Hungary. Like any Belgian lady who marries a Prince, a Duke, a Marquess, a Count, a Viscount, a Baron can be addressed with her spouse's title.

Mathilde and Claire
were given the titles of "HRH Princess Mathilde / Claire of Belgium" before each of their weddings, as King Baudouin issued a decree stating that future wives of princes would no longer automatically assume the "princess" title because they married a Belgian prince. So I do not think that your assumption concerning Lili's Belgian title is incorrect. She is considered "Princess Amadeo of Belgium," but not "Princess Elisabetta of Belgium" - she was not made a "Princess of Belgium" in her own right by King Philippe. Of course, the titles she assumed upon her marriage from Amadeo's paternal family are not affected.







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Perhaps if he is paying rent for it.
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  #108  
Old 12-05-2015, 06:15 AM
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Mathilde and Claire
were given the titles of "HRH Princess Mathilde / Claire of Belgium" before each of their weddings, as King Baudouin issued a decree stating that future wives of princes would no longer automatically assume the "princess" title because they married a Belgian prince. So I do not think that your assumption concerning Lili's Belgian title is incorrect. She is considered "Princess Amadeo of Belgium," but not "Princess Elisabetta of Belgium" - she was not made a "Princess of Belgium" in her own right by King Philippe. Of course, the titles she assumed upon her marriage from Amadeo's paternal family are not affected.
According to Wikipedia: Before the wedding, by means of a Royal Order of 8 November 1999, Mathilde was made a princess of Belgium in her own right. This Royal Order entered into force on the date of the wedding. The wife of a Belgian prince used to receive this title automatically, but a special creation is now required.
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  #109  
Old 12-05-2015, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
Mathilde and Claire
were given the titles of "HRH Princess Mathilde / Claire of Belgium" before each of their weddings, as King Baudouin issued a decree stating that future wives of princes would no longer automatically assume the "princess" title because they married a Belgian prince. So I do not think that your assumption concerning Lili's Belgian title is incorrect. She is considered "Princess Amadeo of Belgium," but not "Princess Elisabetta of Belgium" - she was not made a "Princess of Belgium" in her own right by King Philippe. Of course, the titles she assumed upon her marriage from Amadeo's paternal family are not affected.
The style Princess Amedeo of Belgium is absolutely correct but in daily speech no one will address her as Princess Amedeo. Look at Léa Wolman: formally she is Princess Alexandre of Belgium but everyone knows her as Princess Léa.
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  #110  
Old 12-05-2015, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
According to Wikipedia: Before the wedding, by means of a Royal Order of 8 November 1999, Mathilde was made a princess of Belgium in her own right. This Royal Order entered into force on the date of the wedding. The wife of a Belgian prince used to receive this title automatically, but a special creation is now required.
The formal difference is that Countess Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz and Claire Coombs are "Princess of Belgium" in their own right and therefore can be addressed as "Princess Mathilde" or "Princess Claire".

Donna Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein and Léa Wolman are (were) married to Prince Amedeo respectively Prince Alexandre. Therefore they can be addressed as "Princess Amedeo of Belgium" resp. "Princess Alexandre of Belgium". In practice (see "Princess Diana") this difference is not made.

Example 1 in French

Example 2 in Dutch

Example 3 on Flemish television
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  #111  
Old 12-06-2015, 08:15 PM
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The royal court of Belgium uses the titles Princess Alexandre, Princess Mathilde (now Queen), Princess Claire, and Princess Elisabetta respectively.

Princess Alexandre: La Monarchie belge: Accueil - Actualités - Agenda - Décès du Prince Alexandre de Belgique
Princess Mathilde: The Belgian Monarchy: Home - Portrait of Princess Mathilde
Princess Claire: The Belgian Monarchy: Home - Royal Family - Princess Claire
Princess Elisabetta: http://www.koningsfan.dse.nl/bedankkaartje231.jpg


I fail to see why the court styles Léa as Princess Alexandre and Elisabetta as Princess Elisabetta, but it clearly does not hinge on a title being "in her own right". Léa was created a Princess of Belgium by a Royal Decree and is therefore comparable to Mathilde and Claire, whereas Elisabetta uses her husband's title as a courtesy.
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  #112  
Old 12-06-2015, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The style Princess Amedeo of Belgium is absolutely correct but in daily speech no one will address her as Princess Amedeo. Look at Léa Wolman: formally she is Princess Alexandre of Belgium but everyone knows her as Princess Léa.
I just read that Princess Lea was made a princess in her own right. I guess at this point in time Princess Elisabetta is more relevant to the BRF than is Princess Alexandre. Go figure!
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  #113  
Old 12-07-2015, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post

I fail to see why the court styles Léa as Princess Alexandre and Elisabetta as Princess Elisabetta, but it clearly does not hinge on a title being "in her own right". Léa was created a Princess of Belgium by a Royal Decree and is therefore comparable to Mathilde and Claire, whereas Elisabetta uses her husband's title as a courtesy.
Do Dutch or French languages have such a form of address as Princess Hasband'sName of Belgium at all? I doubt
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  #114  
Old 12-07-2015, 05:39 AM
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In British common law the correct style for a married woman is Mrs John Smith, not Mrs Jane Smith. So we have Princess William or Princess Edward.

This style was extended to foreign princesses as well. Princess Alice of Battenberg was Princess Andrew of Greece and Denmark.

Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna of Russia was Princess Nicholas of Greece and Denmark.

Does Belgium not use common law for their royals?
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  #115  
Old 12-07-2015, 08:36 AM
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In Belgium a woman cannot use her husband's name or surname for legal purposes. The official name and title of the then Princess Mathilde were
La Princesse Mathilde, Marie, Christine, Ghislaine, Comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique

Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

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Do Dutch or French languages have such a form of address as Princess Hasband'sName of Belgium at all? I doubt
At the very least, the court addresses Léa by her husband's name in both languages.
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  #116  
Old 12-07-2015, 09:12 AM
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In Belgium a woman cannot use her husband's name or surname for legal purposes. [....]
They can perfectly use their husband's name. The marriage is a legal entity and the married name refers to that legal entity. It is legally allowed to use the husband's surname and have it registered in official documents.

See article 216, second paragraph of the Belgian Civic Code: Aucun des époux ne peut user dans ses relations du nom de son conjoint qu'avec l'accord de celui-ci. L'accord ne peut être retiré que pour motifs graves. Le retrait ouvre un recours devant le tribunal de la famille.

It says that the spouse can use the husband's name, when it has been agreed (the civil registrar will ask it at the marriage ceremony). The agreed use of the surname can only be revoked for very serious reasons. The spouse can protest against the revoking of the agreement at a Family Tribunal (Court of Justice).

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  #117  
Old 12-07-2015, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
They can perfectly use their husband's name. The marriage is a legal entity and the married name refers to that legal entity. It is legally allowed to use the husband's surname and have it registered in official documents.

See article 216, second paragraph of the Belgian Civic Code: Aucun des époux ne peut user dans ses relations du nom de son conjoint qu'avec l'accord de celui-ci. L'accord ne peut être retiré que pour motifs graves. Le retrait ouvre un recours devant le tribunal de la famille.

It says that the spouse can use the husband's name, when it has been agreed (the civil registrar will ask it at the marriage ceremony). The agreed use of the surname can only be revoked for very serious reasons. The spouse can protest against the revoking of the agreement at a Family Tribunal (Court of Justice).

Thank you, Duc_et_Pair. Very interesting. Are you sure that it refers to legal documents? A Belgian embassy states:

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En Belgique, le seul nom légalement reconnu est celui qui figure sur votre acte de naissance (c'est-à-dire le "nom de jeune fille" pour les femmes mariées ou veuves). Une autre mention sur vos documents officiels belges ne serait pas valable. Le Législateur a ainsi voulu éviter toute discrimination, tant entre hommes et femmes qu'entre couples mariés ou non.
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  #118  
Old 12-07-2015, 09:48 AM
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The law has been changed: a couple, no matter male-female, female-female, male-male, can use each other surnames, a child can chose the name of the father, of the mother or even both. In that sense the birth name remains on all documents. That does however not mean that when you marry a Belgian Mr Jansen, you can not be known as Mrs Jansen, sign with Mrs Jansen or have the name Mrs Jansen in your passport. It is allowed and valid. The original birth name however will always remain in official documents ("Mrs Jansen née Delahaye").

Mathilde de Belgique (married name) is as legal and valid as Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz (original name).
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  #119  
Old 12-08-2015, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
See article 216, second paragraph of the Belgian Civic Code: Aucun des époux ne peut user dans ses relations du nom de son conjoint qu'avec l'accord de celui-ci. L'accord ne peut être retiré que pour motifs graves. Le retrait ouvre un recours devant le tribunal de la famille.
It appears as though the copy of the Civil Code quoted in your post skipped a word in article 216, paragraph 2, which applies to professional names.

Art. 216.<L 14-07-1976, art. 1>. § 1. Chaque époux a le droit d'exercer une profession sans l'accord de son conjoint.
Toutefois, si celui-ci estime que cette activité est de nature à porter un préjudice sérieux à ses intérêts moraux ou matériels ou à ceux des enfants mineurs, il a un droit de recours devant le tribunal de [1 la famille]1.
Le tribunal peut subordonner l'exercice de la profession à la modification préalable du régime matrimonial des époux.
Les dispositions des deux alinéas précédents ne sont pas applicables à l'exercice de mandats publics.
§ 2. Aucun des époux ne peut user dans ses relations professionnelles du nom de son conjoint qu'avec l'accord de celui-ci.
L'accord ne peut être retiré que pour motifs graves. Le retrait ouvre un recours devant le tribunal de [1 la famille]1.
----------
(1)<L 2013-07-30/23, art. 25, 065; En vigueur : 01-09-2014>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The law has been changed: a couple, no matter male-female, female-female, male-male, can use each other surnames, [....] That does however not mean that when you marry a Belgian Mr Jansen, you can not be known as Mrs Jansen, sign with Mrs Jansen or have the name Mrs Jansen in your passport. It is allowed and valid. The original birth name however will always remain in official documents ("Mrs Jansen née Delahaye").
Several Belgian embassies say that the only legally recognized name is the name on the birth certificate, and that the usage of another name in official documents is invalid. If this has changed of late, can you please provide more details?
Ambassade de Belgique, Paris
Questions fréquemment posées - Norvège - Diplomatie
Questions fréquentes sur la carte d’identité et le passeport | La Belgique en Allemagne


In any event, to answer Rudolph's question, there is no common law requirement for a married woman to use the style "Princess William" or "Mrs. John Smith" in Belgium.
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  #120  
Old 12-10-2015, 11:45 AM
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So if that is true, then any woman who marries a Belgian prince, whether they are made a "HRH Princess of Belgium" (Mathilde, Claire, Lea) or not (Elisabetta), their only officially recognized name is the name present on their birthday certificate? And, I assume this would apply to Lorenz and his children who were born before he was made HRH Prince of Belgium - which would include Amadeo? And therefore Lili is really not entitled to use Princess Elisabetta after all?
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