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  #81  
Old 11-26-2015, 12:39 AM
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When Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip become grand parents it is most likely a Queen Victoria that will be the regent. Although not impossible that our King is still alive and reigning it is not likely. The King is almost 70 and the oldest grandchild is not even two (excl Princess Estelle). Even if the King should be in the position to decide whether grand children of Madeleine and Carl Philip should have titles, my guess is that he would not grant them.
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  #82  
Old 11-26-2015, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
[...]
There were no decrees issued ahead of Prince Amedeo's wedding, but his fiancée was called Juffrouw/Mademoiselle by the Belgian court. In yesterday's decree, she is titled Mevrouw/Madame.
This is linguistically correct because as a fiancée Elisabetta was an unmarried lady and therefore a Juffrouw/Mademoiselle during the engagement. The Royal Decree refers retroactively to the lady whom is -at present- in married state and therefore a Mevrouw/Madame.

Was Elisabetta a Dutch or Belgian-born lady, then she would have been addressed with the predicate Jonkvrouw/Demoiselle, being the daughter of an untitled nobleman (like Mathilde during her engagement).
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  #83  
Old 11-26-2015, 02:36 PM
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It would be interesting to know why now, but I don't believe we will find out.

I believe the new Belgian solution would have worked a lot better if the King had 2 children...
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  #84  
Old 11-26-2015, 03:17 PM
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While I find it improbable for Carl-Philips grandchildren to be totally without a title it won't work in the long run for them to have Royal titles. Sweden is a small country and there's no need for to big of a Royal family.
I believe the King has a soft spot for his male-line heirs and doesn't want to leave them without a title of some sorts. The main issue is that any conferring of titles upon his grand- or great grandchildren could be seen as an act of ennoblement and would give the Monarchy terribly bad PR and only make them look anachronistic and elitist which in the end could turn public opinion against them. Adding to that it could, if judged as an act of ennoblement and not as the handing out of Royal titles, be illegal. No government would want to touch the issue with a stick. The same IMO goes for if they get a foreign title as has been done before.


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The King of Sweden can not ennoble new commoners into the Nobility. His son Prince Carl Philip however is a direct male agnate and direct heir of the House of Bernadotte. For him it is no different than for the Heir of the House Fouché d'Otrante (Dukes) or the Heir of the House of Lagergren (Marquises). These male agnates pass the nobility and the title like it has been passed centuries before them.

When King Carl Philip decides on a new title to the children of his son, this is not effectively an elevation (ennoblement) as his son already is the male agnate successor to the House of Bernadotte. That he has conferred the title Princess of Sweden and Duchess of Östergötland to Miss Estelle Westling (named Bernadotte), the title Princess of Sweden and Duchess of Götland to Miss Leonore O'Neill (named Bernadotte) and the title Prince of Sweden and Duke of Ångermanland to Mr Nicolas O'Neill (named Bernadotte): these are in fact new elevations, whereas children of Prince Carl Philip simply are direct male agnates of a whole line of male line descendants all the way back to Karl XVI Johan.
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  #85  
Old 11-26-2015, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The King of Sweden can not ennoble new commoners into the Nobility. His son Prince Carl Philip however is a direct male agnate and direct heir of the House of Bernadotte. For him it is no different than for the Heir of the House Fouché d'Otrante (Dukes) or the Heir of the House of Lagergren (Marquises). These male agnates pass the nobility and the title like it has been passed centuries before them.

When King Carl Philip decides on a new title to the children of his son, this is not effectively an elevation (ennoblement) as his son already is the male agnate successor to the House of Bernadotte. That he has conferred the title Princess of Sweden and Duchess of Östergötland to Miss Estelle Westling (named Bernadotte), the title Princess of Sweden and Duchess of Götland to Miss Leonore O'Neill (named Bernadotte) and the title Prince of Sweden and Duke of Ångermanland to Mr Nicolas O'Neill (named Bernadotte): these are in fact new elevations, whereas children of Prince Carl Philip simply are direct male agnates of a whole line of male line descendants all the way back to Karl XVI Johan.
Duchess of Götland or Duchess of Östergötland are not titles of nobility, but rather dynastic titles like Duchess of Brabant, Duchess of Lugo, or Prince of Naples. As the head of the dynasty, King Carl XVI Gustaf can give whatever dynastic title he sees fit to any dynast. The critical point is to define who is a dynast and who is not.

If all persons in the line of succession to the Swedish throne are deemed to be dynasts (which is what the Act of Succession actually indirectly implies), then, in theory, Carl Gustaf could hand out dynastic titles to any of his direct descendants, including all his great-grandchildren if he is still alive when they are born. That, however, is not reasonable IMHO. Instead, membership of the dynasty should be limited to the children and grandchildren of the monarch and the children of the eldest child of the heir apparent if any. And that limitation should be laid down by law. As the King of Sweden is powerless and cannot issue royal decrees or letters patent as some of his European counterparts, the matter should be regulated by an act of the Riksdag.

King Philippe and his advisers in the Belgian government were actually very generous as the 2015 Belgian royal decree defines as dynasts (and, hence, princes or princesses of Belgium) not only all children and grandchildren of the monarch (without any distinction between male and female line, which is OK), but also all children and grandchildren of the heir apparent.
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  #86  
Old 11-26-2015, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Royal Decree refers retroactively to the lady whom is -at present- in married state and therefore a Mevrouw/Madame.
I agree that the royal decree refers to her married state. Mevrouw/Madame can be used when addressing unmarried women, but the court addresses fiancées as Juffrouw/Mademoiselle.

I was alluding to the difference between the greeting cards (Princess Elisabetta) and the royal decree (Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein), which corroborates that the title "Princess Elisabetta" is a courtesy title as opposed to a legally recognized one.

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Technically, under the new 2015 royal decree, Princess Elisabeth's civil name for example is

Her Royal Highness Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchess of Brabant, Princess of Belgium.
"Prince(ss)" is also inserted before the given names, e.g. "Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Amedeo, Prins van België" in the decree concerning his marriage or "H.R.H. Prince Albert, Felix, Humbert, Theodore, Christian, Eugene, Marie, Prince of Liege, Prince of Belgium" in the Constitution.
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  #87  
Old 11-26-2015, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by *Mara* View Post
Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.

IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.

[...]

Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
12 NOVEMBER 2015. - Koninklijk besluit betreffende de verlening van de titel van Prins of Prinses van België
12 NOVEMBRE 2015. - Arrêté royal relatif à l'octroi du titre de Prince ou Princesse de Belgique

The heir to the throne is referred to as "the Crown Prince or the Crown Princess" (Art. 1), a title which isn't present in the Constitution or in other statutes.

Descendants of King Léopold I, even those who are expressly not Princes and Princesses of Belgium (Art. 4), are referred to as "Princes and Princesses".

The seventh paragraph of the preamble implies a relationship between transmission of family names, the national register of natural persons, "participation in economic life by members of the royal family", and "avoiding confusion between the family name and the titles", but I do not see it.
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  #88  
Old 11-26-2015, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It has similarities to the British system but is more generous than that.
It has similarities to the Dutch system but is less generous than that.

NL - 2002
The children of the King or the Heir have the title HRH Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau

BE - 2015
The children and the grandchildren of the King or the Heir have the title HRH Prince (Princess) of Belgium

In both NL and BE: all who fall outside this circle keep their already given title as a personal and non-hereditary title.

In both NL and BE: the King can create new nobility (unlike Sweden and Norway, for an example). In the Netherlands the children born to the younger princes (Friso and Constantijn) were elevated into the hereditary nobility with the title Graaf (Gravin) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. In Denmark Queen Margrethe elevated her children and grandchildren into the hereditary nobility with the title Greve (Komtesse) af Monpezat. Belgium still has an active ennoblement policy. It would not surprise me when King Philippe or Queen Elisabeth elevate their cousins into the hereditary nobility as well.
Why were Princess Margriet's sons titled anyway? Back in the day, a princess ' s children did not inherit a royal title from their mother? Princess Irene married Carlos - Hugo (and did not seek her mother's permission to do so as it would have been declined as CH was Catholic) and their titles came from their father. Beatrix later incorporated them into the Belgian nobility. Princess Christina married an untitled Catholic man and she did seek her mother's permission for the same reason as Irene. So I have wondered why Margriet's sons have the "Prince of Orange - Nassau" title?
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  #89  
Old 11-26-2015, 07:57 PM
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See post no. 75, here.

Princesses Irene and Chrisina never asked for permission for their marriages and thus were stripped of their succession rights. In Irene's case permission would not have been granted as she married a pretender to the Spanish throne and the Dutch government didn't want to get involved in such a mess. Christina did not want permission as she preverred a life out of the limelight. Catholicism was not an issue in these matters.
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  #90  
Old 11-26-2015, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Elisabetta clearly is not a Princess of Belgium in her own right as the title is no longer automatic for consorts of HRHs and no rioyal decree was issued granting her that title. I suppose though that, as Prince Amedeo's wife, she can be referred to by the courtesy title of Princess Amedeo.

As for Amedeo's other titles (archduke of Austria, prince of Hungary and Bohemia, duke of Modena, etc.), they are merely titles of pretense as they are not legally recognized by Austria, Hungary, Italy, or the Czech Republic.
That makes sense - to me a "princess in her right" = Princess Elisabetta of Belgium. But as Amadeo's wife = Princess Amadeo of Belgium. I realize Amadeo's other titles are titles of pretense, but (as in Princess Caroline of Monaco's daughter, Mlle. Alexandra von Hanover but in Monaco= HRH Princess Alexandra of Hanover) if Belgium recognizes those titles, and he is no longer in the line of succession, is he now "Archduke Amadeo of Austria-Este, Prince of Belgium, ..."?
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  #91  
Old 11-26-2015, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
Why were Princess Margriet's sons titled anyway? Back in the day, a princess ' s children did not inherit a royal title from their mother? Princess Irene married Carlos - Hugo (and did not seek her mother's permission to do so as it would have been declined as CH was Catholic) and their titles came from their father. Beatrix later incorporated them into the Belgian nobility. Princess Christina married an untitled Catholic man and she did seek her mother's permission for the same reason as Irene. So I have wondered why Margriet's sons have the "Prince of Orange - Nassau" title?
Prince Constantijn's children could also have been legally made princes or princesses of Orange-Nassau as they were members of the Royal House when they were born and all members of the Royal House can get that title by royal decree. They could not have been made princes or princesses of the Netherlands though as they were not children of the Heir Apparent.
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  #92  
Old 11-26-2015, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
That makes sense - to me a "princess in her right" = Princess Elisabetta of Belgium. But as Amadeo's wife = Princess Amadeo of Belgium. I realize Amadeo's other titles are titles of pretense, but (as in Princess Caroline of Monaco's daughter, Mlle. Alexandra von Hanover but in Monaco= HRH Princess Alexandra of Hanover) if Belgium recognizes those titles, and he is no longer in the line of succession, is he now "Archduke Amadeo of Austria-Este, Prince of Belgium, ..."?
The royal decree says, if I understand it correctly, that he can use any other title he has by ancestry AFTER his name and his title of prince of Belgium. So technically he should be called

HRH Prince Amedeo etc etc , Prince of Belgium, Archduke of Austria-Este etc etc
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  #93  
Old 11-26-2015, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post


See post no. 75, here.

Princesses Irene and Chrisina never asked for permission for their marriages and thus were stripped of their succession rights. In Irene's case permission would not have been granted as she married a pretender to the Spanish throne and the Dutch government didn't want to get involved in such a mess. Christina did not want permission as she preverred a life out of the limelight. Catholicism was not an issue in these matters.
I read that because C-H was 1st Catholic and 2nd was a pretender to the Spanish throne were THE two issues in Irene not seeking her mother's permission. C-H being Catholic sent "shockwaves" (believe it or not) throughout the Netherlands. Because he was only a "pretender" to the Spanish throne, and QJ preferred another pretender to the Spanish throne - Infante Juan - Carlos (later King J-C) of Spain - I don't think she even wanted C-H in the Netherlands. This was actually considered a crisis in the Netherlands in that era - when Irene converted to Catholicism she was banned from her home country for awhile. It was a long time ago - now the Netherlands has Catholic Queen consort. Times have changed....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...rlos-Hugo.html
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  #94  
Old 11-26-2015, 11:36 PM
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It would be interesting to know why now, but I don't believe we will find out.

I believe the new Belgian solution would have worked a lot better if the King had 2 children...
How would it have worked if Philippe had 2 children?
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  #95  
Old 11-27-2015, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
Why were Princess Margriet's sons titled anyway? Back in the day, a princess ' s children did not inherit a royal title from their mother? Princess Irene married Carlos - Hugo (and did not seek her mother's permission to do so as it would have been declined as CH was Catholic) and their titles came from their father. Beatrix later incorporated them into the Belgian nobility. Princess Christina married an untitled Catholic man and she did seek her mother's permission for the same reason as Irene. So I have wondered why Margriet's sons have the "Prince of Orange - Nassau" title?
Pieter van Vollenhoven was the first commoner ever to marry with a Prince or Princess of the (Dutch) Royal House. Both the paternal family (Van Vollenhoven) as well the maternal family (Stuyling de Lange) belong to the Patriciate, for generations. Queen Juliana could have elevated this patrician into the Nobility, for an example with the surname Stuyling de Lange van Vollenhoven. But Queen Juliana was rigid in her handling of things: she refused to make a difference between her grandchildren. The High Council of Nobility advised against the title "Prince of Orange-Nassau" as a personal title, following the paternal surname. They found that an undesirable mess, to say it careful.

When Pieter was -for an example- Jonkheer Stuyling de Lange van Vollenhoven, his sons and all his grandchildren now belonged to the Dutch Nobility. But these were the roaring Sixties. Queen Juliana wanted to "prove" that she fully accepted a commoner into the royal family. Elevating him into the Nobility would look like she was not on terms with Pieter. It was all new.

Pieter and Margriet told they had to overcome strong opposition in the royal family, at the Court, in society even. (Pieter was not taken au-sérieux for decades). In the end all came well-settled. Except the mess with the titles and surnames of his children and grandchildren.
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  #96  
Old 11-27-2015, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
How would it have worked if Philippe had 2 children?
Only the (new) children and grandchildren of the King/Queen and heir will receive titles in the future. With the King and Queen having 4 children, there are 4 children who give the titles to their children. Say 3 kids, it means 12 Princes and/or Princesses instead of 6. And that is if the spouses don't get the title.
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  #97  
Old 11-27-2015, 08:23 AM
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Only the (new) children and grandchildren of the King/Queen and heir will receive titles in the future. With the King and Queen having 4 children, there are 4 children who give the titles to their children.
Which is reasonable in my opinion. I find it too restrictive to limit the title of prince/princess only to the Heir Apparent's children (as in the Netherlands), or only to the monarch's grandchildren in male line (as in the UK).

I think all of the monarch's grandchildren should be princes/princesses, but a distinction could be made in their style, e.g. the Heir Apparent's children could be HRHs, whereas his/her younger siblings' children could be HHs only (as in Denmark).
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  #98  
Old 11-27-2015, 03:10 PM
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This Thread concerns Belgium .

We have for the moment 18 Princes and Princesses .
This never happen before .
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  #99  
Old 11-30-2015, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I think all of the monarch's grandchildren should be princes/princesses, but a distinction could be made in their style, e.g. the Heir Apparent's children could be HRHs, whereas his/her younger siblings' children could be HHs only (as in Denmark).
It was about time to modify the rules through which a member of the Belgian Royal Family and his/her issues are or aren't Prince/Princess of Belgium. It could have potentially become a mess. Especially now that government has restricted the Dotation Royale only to a few members of the family and the others, including the children of Philippe -apart from Elisabeth- will have to work outside their public duties as Princes of Belgium.
But I agree with Mbruno: IMO the Danish solution is the best. All the grandchildren are granted the title but only the heir's/heiress' children should be styled HRH, like a distinction between "royal princes" and "princes of the blood" who should be styled HH.
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  #100  
Old 11-30-2015, 04:19 PM
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If Prince Alexandre and Princess Lea would have had children would they be also "HRH Prince/ss of Belgium"?
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