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  #61  
Old 11-25-2015, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming View Post
Scroll further in the link you quoted and you will see a card where she is called Princess Elisabetta.
Ok thanks. But is not herself who called her Princess Elisabetta but someone from the Court people. But that happen more often for example there is also a CArd from Prince Gabriel of Luxembourg but he is not Prince oif Luxembourg but only Prince of Nassau
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  #62  
Old 11-25-2015, 07:32 AM
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Perhaps they will announce a pregnancy ?
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  #63  
Old 11-25-2015, 08:12 AM
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The problem in Sweden and Norway is that the respective King's can not create new Titles. They can decide about the Title Prince/Princess and the for the members of the Royal Families and the swedish King can also decide about the Dukeodoms for members of the RF which are personal and not heriditary.
I hope the respective governments will allow for a change. I have a hard time believing the legitimate children of a Prince are going to be plain Mr/Ms something.

Maybe the male-line grandchildren of Prince Carl Philip and the children of Prince Nicolas can be Counts and Countesses of Bernadotte. I'm not sure about which title could created for the children of Prince Sverre Magnus.
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  #64  
Old 11-25-2015, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Ok thanks. But is not herself who called her Princess Elisabetta but someone from the Court people. But that happen more often for example there is also a CArd from Prince Gabriel of Luxembourg but he is not Prince oif Luxembourg but only Prince of Nassau
So I suppose you would want to see a card or something that has her own handwriting (like the wedding thank you card) - which would make the title usage "official"?
I doubt there is any use of a title, I suspect they sign with just Amedeo and Elisabetta Maria, but up to now we don't know for sure of course.
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  #65  
Old 11-25-2015, 08:50 AM
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So I suppose you would want to see a card or something that has her own handwriting (like the wedding thank you card) - which would make the title usage "official"?
I doubt there is any use of a title, I suspect they sign with just Amedeo and Elisabetta Maria, but up to now we don't know for sure of course.
I only wanted to point out that we can not conclude that she calls herself Princess Elisabetta. It could also be a mistake by their staff.
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  #66  
Old 11-25-2015, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
I only wanted to point out that we can not conclude that she calls herself Princess Elisabetta. It could also be a mistake by their staff.
Understood and true, although I wouldn't necessarily say it is a possible mistake. There is often a difference between how they call themselves and how they are being called by staff/the court.

Royals themselves often only use just their names, while the court addresses with the formal titles.

I doubt it will be known anytime soon how she calls herself. My guess is just Elisabetta (Maria) (and he Amedeo).
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  #67  
Old 11-25-2015, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
[...]
The decree retroactively granting consent to her marriage styles her "Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein", which is presumably her legal name and title.

That is her own surname, that is normal, that is how she is registered. The same Decree concerning Mathilde (dated 19 september 1999) was worded:

Seen Article 85, second part, of the Constitution,
Have We decided as We do decide:

Single Article:

The consent as worded in Article 85, second part, of the Constitution for the marriage of Our well-beloved son, His Royal Highness Prince Philippe Léopold Louis Marie, Duke of Brabant, Prince of Belgium with Jonkvrouw Mathilde Marie Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, is given.


Later Mathilde was created a Countess in her own right (Comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz) and a Princess in her own right (Princesse de Belgique).
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  #68  
Old 11-25-2015, 10:04 AM
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In Britain it's the prerogative of a Royal Highness/Prince/ss to sign with their Christian name.

Pre wedding Kate signed as Catherine Middleton and now its just Catherine.

Maybe something similar in Belgium
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  #69  
Old 11-25-2015, 10:07 AM
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It was a smart move to limit the number of people who will have the title of prince / princess.
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  #70  
Old 11-25-2015, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
In Britain it's the prerogative of a Royal Highness/Prince/ss to sign with their Christian name.

Pre wedding Kate signed as Catherine Middleton and now its just Catherine.

Maybe something similar in Belgium

Isn't that customary for European royals in general?


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  #71  
Old 11-25-2015, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
[...] I doubt it will be known anytime soon how she calls herself. My guess is just Elisabetta (Maria) (and he Amedeo).
Nobles never refer to themselves with their title. When you meet a nobleman he will just say "Cornet" (instead of "Count Cornet d'Elzius") or "Preud'homme" (instead of "Viscount de Preud'homme d'Hailly-Nieuport"). When you see the signatures of Máxima or Mathilde, they never sign with titles, just the own name.

Like any wedded wife, "as a social custom", Lilli can be addressed as Princess Elisabetta, exactly like her fellow Italian Isabella Orsini is Princess Isabella, as legally wedded wife to the Belgian citizen with the legally recognized names and titles Prince Édouard de Ligne de la Trémoïlle.
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  #72  
Old 11-25-2015, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Isn't that customary for European royals in general?


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I'm not sure, I don't follow other families as closely but if Elisabetta signs with just her first name it may mean she is in fact a princess. It would in Britain
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  #73  
Old 11-25-2015, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Cris M View Post
I hope the respective governments will allow for a change. I have a hard time believing the legitimate children of a Prince are going to be plain Mr/Ms something.

Maybe the male-line grandchildren of Prince Carl Philip and the children of Prince Nicolas can be Counts and Countesses of Bernadotte. I'm not sure about which title could created for the children of Prince Sverre Magnus.

If all members of collateral branches of a royal house were ennobled and their titles were hereditary, a new hereditary nobility would soon develop. That is definitely out of question in Sweden or Norway, and might be a problem even in countries like the Netherlands where the number of noble families is relatively small and there is no desire to expand it.

The solution applied to Prince Constantijn's and Prince Friso's children in the end will have little long-term impact because Claus Casimir, being the only male among them, is the only one who will be able to pass his title to his children. A better solution, however, would have been IMHO to have given them the personal title of Prince/Princess of Orange-Nassau with the predicate HH (as was done in the case of Princess Margriet's sons) and then leave all grandchildren of Friso and Constantijn untitled. Keep in mind that Prince Maurits for example is a "proper prince" , but his children are simple Mr/.Mrs. xxx van Lippe-Biesterfeld van Vollenhoven (I think).
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  #74  
Old 11-25-2015, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Interesting point about the decree being unconstitutional. I agree that a resolution passed by both houses of Parliament would be necessary to restore Amedeo's succession rights, but i doubt anyone will challenge the retroactive decree in the courts.
Without a doubt. But I wonder, did the king and prime minister forget to check the Constitution, or willfully issue an unconstitutional decree to shirk a vote in Parliament?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilia C. View Post
I keep forgetting: was there a government at the time of Amedeo's wedding? If not, I wonder if that has something to do with him not 'officially' asking approval for his marriage at the time. Maybe the king wanted to sort out the future title questions first. He could have asked Amedeo to wait with the officially asking consent till the matter of the decree was solved.
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Perhaps they adviced him on this course of action as they were working on the title change but didn't think they could finish it on time for the wedding?
In my opinion, the government formation and the title issue do not justify the mystifying delay.

Prince Amedeo's engagement was already announced on February 15, 2014, a full three months before the federal elections of May 25, 2014. The Michel government was sworn in on October 11, 2014, after which Amedeo waited just short of a year to formally request approval on September 20, 2015.

Neither the decree of 1991 nor the decree of 2015 discriminates between descendants with succession rights and those without, thus official consent or lack thereof has no repercussions for Amedeo's or his children's titles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
That is her own surname, that is normal, that is how she is registered. The same Decree concerning Mathilde (dated 19 september 1999) was worded:

Seen Article 85, second part, of the Constitution,
Have We decided as We decide:

Single Article:

The consent as worded in Article 85, second part, of the Constitution for the marriage of Our well-beloved son, His Royal Highness Prince Philippe Léopold Louis Marie, Duke of Brabant, Prince of Belgium with Jonkvrouw Mathilde Marie Ghislaine d'Udekem d'Acoz, is given.


Later Mathilde was created a Countess in her own right (Comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz) and a Princess in her own right (Princesse de Belgique).
True. However, the decrees concerning Prince Philippe and Prince Laurent's marriages were issued well before the weddings and refer to their fiancées as Jonkvrouw/Mademoiselle (Mathilde) or Mejuffrouw/Mademoiselle (Claire).

19 SEPTEMBER 1999. - Koninklijk besluit waarbij Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Filip, Hertog van Brabant, Prins van België, toestemming wordt verleend om in het huwelijk te treden.

19 DECEMBER 2002. - Koninklijk besluit waarbij Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Laurent, Prins van België, toestemming wordt verleend om in het huwelijk te treden.

Prince Philippe married on December 4, 1999 and Prince Laurent on April 12, 2003.

There were no decrees issued ahead of Prince Amedeo's wedding, but his fiancée was called Juffrouw/Mademoiselle by the Belgian court. In yesterday's decree, she is titled Mevrouw/Madame.
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  #75  
Old 11-25-2015, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
[...] A better solution, however, would have been IMHO to have given them the personal title of Prince/Princess of Orange-Nassau with the predicate HH (as was done in the case of Princess Margriet's sons) and then leave all grandchildren of Friso and Constantijn untitled. Keep in mind that Prince Maurits for example is a "proper prince" , but his children are simple Mr/.Mrs. xxx van Lippe-Biesterfeld van Vollenhoven (I think).
It was the desire of the lawmaker (the Dutch Government) that the titles Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands and/or Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau remain closely connected with the person of the King.

Back then in the 1960's the Hoge Raad van Adel (High Council of Nobility) advised against the use of the title Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau for the children of the younger daughters of Queen Juliana. They advised to follow the rule that by lack of males the most senior female heir is treated as if she was a male and the titles pass via her like it would have passed in the male lineage. However Queen Juliana insisted and stated she did not want to create A-Princes and B-Princes: all her grandchildren were equal to her. Despite her attempts of course the three sons of Princess (Queen) Beatrix had (and have) a total different status than their cousins. The wish of the old Queen was the father of the thought but did not work in practice.

The solution of 2001 (Constantijn) and 2004 (Friso) to create a new branch of the dynasty belonging to the Netherlands Nobility with the surname Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg, the title Count (Countess) van Oranje-Nassau and the predicate Jonkheer (Jonkvrouw) van Amsberg was a more durable one. Their descendants in the male lineage will remain members of the titled nobility ánd the wish to connect the princely titles close to the person of the King is honoured. Imagine that Princess Irene and Christina were married with consent, then we would now have 22 Princes (Princesses) of Orange-Nassau walking around...

New ennoblement in the Netherlands is possible for members of the Royal House. Ennoblement in Belgium is possible. Look at Mathilde and her family, all were "promoted" from the baronial rank (by right of firstborn) to the comital rank (by right of all). No problem.

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  #76  
Old 11-25-2015, 02:06 PM
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The Royal Children will have to work later. It is better not to have as name Prince or Princess of Belgium.
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  #77  
Old 11-25-2015, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It was the desire of the lawmaker (the Dutch Government) that the titles Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands and/or Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau remain closely connected with the person of the King.

Back then in the 1960's the Hoge Raad van Adel (High Council of Nobility) advised against the use of the title Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau for the children of the younger daughters of Queen Juliana. They advised to follow the rule that by lack of males the most senior female heir is treated as if she was a male and the titles pass via her like it would have passed in the male lineage. However Queen Juliana insisted and stated she did not want to create A-Princes and B-Princes: all her grandchildren were equal to her. Despite her attempts of course the three sons of Princess (Queen) Beatrix had (and have) a total different status than their cousins. The wish of the old Queen was the father of the thought but did not work in practice.

The solution of 2001 (Constantijn) and 2004 (Friso) to create a new branch of the dynasty belonging to the Netherlands Nobility with the surname Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg, the title Count (Countess) van Oranje-Nassau and the predicate Jonkheer (Jonkvrouw) van Amsberg was a more durable one. Their descendants in the male lineage will remain members of the titled nobility ánd the wish to connect the princely titles close to the person of the King is honoured. Imagine that Princess Irene and Christina were married with consent, then we would now have 22 Princes (Princesses) of Orange-Nassau walking around...

New ennoblement in the Netherlands is possible for members of the Royal House. Ennoblement in Belgium is possible. Look at Mathilde and her family, all were "promoted" from the baronial rank (by right of firstborn) to the comital rank (by right of all). No problem.

My point was precisely that, if all grandchildren of Queen Juliana were princes of Orange-Nassau, there would be initially many princes of Orange-Nassau around, but those titles would last for a generation only and would not be passed to any of Queen Juliana's grandchildren other than the children of Beatrix's sons. In the alternative solution where they were all created counts , their respective children in male line , and the children of their respective children in male line, and so on, forever and ever, would all be counts too, adding over time too many people to the nobility of the Netherlands.

When Prince Constantijn's children were born, they were members of the Royal House as grandchildren of Queen Beatrix (i.e. related to the monarch by two degrees of consanguinity). As such, they could have been legally created princes/princesses of Orange-Nassau under Art.9(2) of the Wet lidmaastschap koninklijk huis. It mystifies me why Queen Beatrix decided instead to make them counts or countesses, thus unnecessarily creating a new comital family in the nobility of the Netherlands which may last for several generations.
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  #78  
Old 11-25-2015, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
In Britain it's the prerogative of a Royal Highness/Prince/ss to sign with their Christian name.

Pre wedding Kate signed as Catherine Middleton and now its just Catherine.

Maybe something similar in Belgium

In the royal decree, the King signs his name only as "Philippe". As a prince, he didn't use a last name either as shown in his civil wedding ceremony where the justice of peace (or whatever he is called) referred to him as His Royal Highness Philippe Léopold Louis Marie, Prince of Belgium. Technically, under the new 2015 royal decree, Princess Elisabeth's civil name for example is

Her Royal Highness Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchess of Brabant, Princess of Belgium.


It is still unclear to me what the last name of Prince Laurent's grandchildren will be. Prince Astrid's grandchildren in male line, I suppose, get Prince Lorenz's family name (Habsburg-Lothringen ?).
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  #79  
Old 11-25-2015, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
In the alternative solution where they were all created counts , their respective children in male line , and the children of their respective children in male line, and so on, forever and ever, would all be counts too, adding over time too many people to the nobility of the Netherlands.
The Nobility of the Benelux (the Belgian Nobility by large is essentially a just split-off of the Netherlands Nobility with later additions) counts some 300 families with a hereditary nobility. Only a fraction of them have a real title. As there are very few ennoblements, the number of nobles is in decline for decades. On a total population of almost 29 million (the Benelux) the number of nobles (titled and untitled) is almost non-existent. The morale of the story: an ennoblement of Prince Laurent's children will do no harm.

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  #80  
Old 11-25-2015, 09:29 PM
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I hope the respective governments will allow for a change. I have a hard time believing the legitimate children of a Prince are going to be plain Mr/Ms something.



Maybe the male-line grandchildren of Prince Carl Philip and the children of Prince Nicolas can be Counts and Countesses of Bernadotte. I'm not sure about which title could created for the children of Prince Sverre Magnus.

While I find it improbable for Carl-Philips grandchildren to be totally without a title it won't work in the long run for them to have Royal titles. Sweden is a small country and there's no need for to big of a Royal family.
I believe the King has a soft spot for his male-line heirs and doesn't want to leave them without a title of some sorts. The main issue is that any conferring of titles upon his grand- or great grandchildren could be seen as an act of ennoblement and would give the Monarchy terribly bad PR and only make them look anachronistic and elitist which in the end could turn public opinion against them. Adding to that it could, if judged as an act of ennoblement and not as the handing out of Royal titles, be illegal. No government would want to touch the issue with a stick. The same IMO goes for if they get a foreign title as has been done before.


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