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  #21  
Old 07-29-2015, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by leidi View Post
Wasn't the law changed in 1991? I remember that when Astrid got married in 1984, Laurent was still ahead of her in the sucession line and it was one of the reasons why Baudouin pushed for a change in the law, to keep that loose cannon as far away from the throne as possible.
Yes, back then Prince Philippe and Prince Laurent were unmarried. The Royal House was much smaller and indeed, Laurent was number three after his father and his elder brother.
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  #22  
Old 07-29-2015, 10:47 AM
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King Albert Ii said in his interview with Pascal Vrebos that Amadeo bought a house , work and lives in Belgium.
He is independant , free has nothing to do with the Royal Donation and will never move to his parent's house.
I wonder how this comes out now through Story.
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  #23  
Old 07-29-2015, 10:50 AM
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I don't remember when Archuke Lorenz was titled Prince of Belgium ?

They are Leurs Altesses Impériales et Royales l'Archiduc et l'Archiduchesse Amadeo de Habsbourg-Este.
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  #24  
Old 07-29-2015, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
I don't remember when Archuke Lorenz was titled Prince of Belgium ?

They are Leurs Altesses Impériales et Royales l'Archiduc et l'Archiduchesse Amadeo de Habsbourg-Este.
Lorenz was created Prince of Belgium on 10.11.1995 so four years after his children.
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  #25  
Old 07-29-2015, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
King Albert Ii said in his interview with Pascal Vrebos that Amadeo bought a house , work and lives in Belgium.
He is independant , free has nothing to do with the Royal Donation and will never move to his parent's house.
I wonder how this comes out now through Story.
Well July and August are empty months they have to fill
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  #26  
Old 07-30-2015, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
BTW did Lorenz title get incorperated in the Belgian nobility, as was the case for AD Rudolph who legally is Prince von Habsburg in Belgium?
The archducal title has been included in Belgian legal documents, but to my knowledge, has not been incorporated into the Belgian nobility.

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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Would it be correct to style Elisabetta 'HI&RH Archduchess of Austria-Este' seeing as she was not made a Princess of Belgium?
Prince Amedeo himself is a Royal (not Imperial and Royal) Highness, officially speaking.

De Belgische Monarchie: Home - Actualités - Agenda - Huwelijk van Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Amedeo met Juffrouw Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein
La Monarchie belge: Accueil - Actueel - Agenda - Fiançailles de Son Altesse Royale le Prince Amedeo avec Mademoiselle Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein


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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Mathilde, Lorenz and Claire were all created prince(ss) in their own right. This did not happen with Elisabetta. But she can still use her husbands titles, like many wives do (like Princess Alexandre / Lea Wolman).

Of course if she will actually use that name/title is unknown. Neither has the court given any clarity on the matter.
Princess Alexandre was created a princess, not ad personam but as an automatic consequence of marriage: A royal decree of March 14, 1891 conferred the title Princess of Belgium on all wives of royal princes. It was only repealed nine months after the marriage of Prince and Princess Alexandre.

Royal Titles in Belgium - Titres Royaux en Belgique


Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
When his father Prince Lorenz married the King's Niece , Philippe and Laurent were still unmarried and Astrid was N° 2 , it was King Baudouin's will.
Princess Astrid and her children had no rights to the throne before the change to equal primogeniture.
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  #27  
Old 07-30-2015, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
King Albert Ii said in his interview with Pascal Vrebos that Amadeo bought a house , work and lives in Belgium.
He is independant , free has nothing to do with the Royal Donation and will never move to his parent's house.
That seems the right thing to do IMHO. Let's hope Amedeo's siblings and Laurent's children follow his example in the future.
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  #28  
Old 08-02-2015, 08:40 AM
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Does anyone else find it odd that a year after the wedding the matter has been clarified regarding Elisabetta's title,most other royal houses would have released this information before hand.
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  #29  
Old 08-02-2015, 09:49 AM
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I am surprised this was not said one year ago !

We had no Government last year at the time of the wedding.
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  #30  
Old 08-02-2015, 10:33 AM
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The Belgian Monarchy site has no information regarding the Belgian line of succession,well on the English version.
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  #31  
Old 08-02-2015, 10:42 AM
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I don't understand why all this discussion a year ago? I guess now discovered the journalist? Little late imagine.
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  #32  
Old 11-24-2015, 02:53 PM
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Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.


***********


And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately. I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.


Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
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  #33  
Old 11-24-2015, 03:00 PM
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Thanks for the update Mara! Quite a sensible move by the king. Still, if all his grandchildren will become princes of Belgium it will mean that under these laws there will be a few dozen of princes of Belgium around 3 decades from now: 12 grandchildren of Albert & spouses makes 24 + the eventual grandchildren of Filip + Lorenz, Astrid, Laurent and Claire.

Did they decide on the titles for grandchildren of Laurent and Astrid? I suppose Astrids grandchildren can use the Habsburg tites but what about Laurents grandchildren? Plain Mr/Miss De Belgique?
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  #34  
Old 11-24-2015, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by *Mara* View Post
Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.


***********


And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately. I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.


Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

Interesting. So it is so that in chldren and grandchildren of a monarch will be Priince/Princess of Belgium like in the Uk. Also interesting that permision for Amedeo's marriage was granted retroactiv and it had not be to done before the marriage took place.
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  #35  
Old 11-24-2015, 03:11 PM
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Interesting indeed,we'll have to wait some time to see how Laurent's grandchildren will be styled!
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  #36  
Old 11-24-2015, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by *Mara* View Post
Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.
That was long overdue. If King Baudouin's previous decree were still in force, all legitimate descendants of King Albert II would be princes of Belgium and the number of HRHs would grow exponentially over the next generations.

I hope Sweden does something similar soon so that CP's and Madeleine's grandchildren are not HRHs either.


Quote:
And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately. I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.


Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
Maybe now that his children will no longer be titled anyway, Amedeo doesn't see the need to renounce his succession rights anymore.
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  #37  
Old 11-24-2015, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Interesting indeed,we'll have to wait some time to see how Laurent's grandchildren will be styled!
The same rule that applies to Astrid applies to Laurent, i.e. his children, as grandchildren of King Albert II, remain HRHs, whereas his grandchildren (i.e Albert's great-grandchildren) will be untitled.

The royal decree actually mentions that.

Quote:
Art. 2. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe de Sa Majesté le Roi Albert II portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale.
The general rule (Art 1) is, I think, that now only children and grandchildren of the King, or children or grandchildren of the Heir Apparent, plus the people in Art 2 and King Albert's sisters will be HRHs.

Quote:


Article 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Roi ainsi que les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Prince héritier ou de la Princesse héritière portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale.
If I understand it correctly also, the above-referenced persons will be called, in that order:

HRH [First Name, e.g. Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène] [Family Name, if used] [Dynastic Title if any, e.g. Duchess of Brabant], Prince/Princess of Belgium, [Other titles by ancestry, if any, e.g. Archduke of Austria-Este in the case of Princess Astrid's children]
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  #38  
Old 11-24-2015, 03:54 PM
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It has similarities to the British system but is more generous than that.
It has similarities to the Dutch system but is less generous than that.

NL - 2002
The children of the King or the Heir have the title HRH Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau

BE - 2015
The children and the grandchildren of the King or the Heir have the title HRH Prince (Princess) of Belgium

In both NL and BE: all who fall outside this circle keep their already given title as a personal and non-hereditary title.

In both NL and BE: the King can create new nobility (unlike Sweden and Norway, for an example). In the Netherlands the children born to the younger princes (Friso and Constantijn) were elevated into the hereditary nobility with the title Graaf (Gravin) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. In Denmark Queen Margrethe elevated her children and grandchildren into the hereditary nobility with the title Greve (Komtesse) af Monpezat. Belgium still has an active ennoblement policy. It would not surprise me when King Philippe or Queen Elisabeth elevate their cousins into the hereditary nobility as well.
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  #39  
Old 11-24-2015, 04:05 PM
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[...] Maybe now that his children will no longer be titled anyway, Amedeo doesn't see the need to renounce his succession rights anymore.
These titles only cover the titles of the Belgian Royal House. Prince Amedeo also belongs to the Austrian Imperial House, the Hungarian Royal House, to the Ducal House of Modena and the dynasty Austria-Este. The titles derived from all this are not affected as the Belgian Royal House has no jurisdiction over these titles.

He will always remain Archduke Amedeo of Austria-Este, Prince Imperial of Austria, Prince Royal of Hungary, (future) Duke of Modena
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  #40  
Old 11-24-2015, 04:09 PM
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That decree is a smart move, imo. The decree is gender neutral but keeps the number of titled family member within a sensible limit.

Was it just up to the king to issue the decree, or was it done with the approval or cooperation of the government? I keep forgetting: was there a government at the time of Amedeo's wedding? If not, I wonder if that has something to do with him not 'officially' asking approval for his marriage at the time. Maybe the king wanted to sort out the future title questions first. He could have asked Amedeo to wait with the officially asking consent till the matter of the decree was solved.

Btw, I assume that the Swedish King is aiming at a similar concept. Only he does it by conferring individual titles instead of issuing a decree. I really doubt the the grandchildren of CP and Madeleine will get HRH and duchies as well.
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