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  #261  
Old 03-04-2018, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Is there any likely hood of the King reinstating the titles abolished by his father?
I wish he would but apparently there's a matter of linguistic neutrality which is, IMO, a bit pointless. The king has four children and he could assign titles so that two of them have Flemish titles and two have Wallon ones.
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  #262  
Old 04-02-2018, 04:30 PM
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Regarding the earlier discussions on Elisabetta's (and Anna Astrid's) titles. It's interesting to see the development in thank you-cards sent out by the royal family.

At first Elisabetta is considered 'princess Elisabetta' (but without HRH). On one of them Astrid, Lorenz and Amedeo are indicated as HRH but Elisabetta lacks this style. The card sent regarding their 2nd wedding anniversary however refer to her as 'TRH prince and princess Amedeo of Belgium'. So, it seems that before the retroactive permission to marry Elisabetta was considered a princess (without a designation) but not a royal highness and since the permission was granted she is now considered a royal highness as 'prince Amedeo of Belgium'.
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  #263  
Old 04-02-2018, 04:41 PM
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I find the entire title situation very confusing regarding Princess Elisabetta/Amedeo of Belgium or what ever they will call her tomorrow.
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  #264  
Old 04-02-2018, 04:58 PM
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Regarding the earlier discussions on Elisabetta's (and Anna Astrid's) titles. It's interesting to see the development in thank you-cards sent out by the royal family.

At first Elisabetta is considered 'princess Elisabetta' (but without HRH). On one of them Astrid, Lorenz and Amedeo are indicated as HRH but Elisabetta lacks this style. The card sent regarding their 2nd wedding anniversary however refer to her as 'TRH prince and princess Amedeo of Belgium'. So, it seems that before the retroactive permission to marry Elisabetta was considered a princess (without a designation) but not a royal highness and since the permission was granted she is now considered a royal highness as 'prince Amedeo of Belgium'.
I thought the title is simply standing practice for female spouses married to titled gentlemen. Lea Wolman was HKH prinses Alexander van België / SAR la princesse Alexandre de Belgique. Likewise Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein is HKH prinses Amedeo van België / SAR la princesse Amedeo de Belgique.
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  #265  
Old 04-02-2018, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I thought the title is simply standing practice for female spouses married to titled gentlemen. Lea Wolman was HKH prinses Alexander van België / SAR la princesse Alexandre de Belgique. Likewise Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein is HKH prinses Amedeo van België / SAR la princesse Amedeo de Belgique.
However, initially she was called 'princess Elisabetta' (without HRH or a designation)... at least in their 'thank you cards' (see link in previous post). So, apparently the royal family did not think she was 'HRH princess Amedeo of Belgium'.
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  #266  
Old 04-02-2018, 05:15 PM
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However, initially she was called 'princess Elisabetta' (without HRH or a designation)... at least in their 'thank you cards' (see link in previous post). So, apparently the royal family did not think she was 'HRH princess Amedeo of Belgium'.
Consistency is not the strongest characteristic of the Belgian monarchy... But the current card seamlessly fits in standing practice and tradition. Finally.
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  #267  
Old 04-02-2018, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Consistency is not the strongest characteristic of the Belgian monarchy... But the current card seamlessly fits in standing practice and tradition. Finally.
Indeed.

However, I'm still not sure about Anna Astrid's title... (I know others are but to me it seems 'inconsistent' and as we've seen with Elisabetta it might take a little while before they have sorted these things out)
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  #268  
Old 04-02-2018, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Regarding the earlier discussions on Elisabetta's (and Anna Astrid's) titles. It's interesting to see the development in thank you-cards sent out by the royal family.

At first Elisabetta is considered 'princess Elisabetta' (but without HRH). On one of them Astrid, Lorenz and Amedeo are indicated as HRH but Elisabetta lacks this style. The card sent regarding their 2nd wedding anniversary however refer to her as 'TRH prince and princess Amedeo of Belgium'. So, it seems that before the retroactive permission to marry Elisabetta was considered a princess (without a designation) but not a royal highness and since the permission was granted she is now considered a royal highness as 'prince Amedeo of Belgium'.
Interesting, and a plausible answer. If I might add an alternative solution, it is also a possibility that she is only allowed the style of HRH when she uses her husband's title as a courtesy.

In all cases when the royal family and court styled Lili Rosboch as a Princess of Belgium, she was styled Princess Amedeo of Belgium. By contrast, whenever the family and court styled Lili as a Princess without a designation, they styled her Princess Elisabetta.

Which may possibly indicate that when Lili is styled Princess Elisabetta, she is being addressed with the title of "Princess" (as demonstrated earlier in the thread, the title of "Princess" is independent of the title "Princess of Belgium"), in her own right, and not the title "Princess of Belgium", which she takes from her husband.

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Indeed.

However, I'm still not sure about Anna Astrid's title... (I know others are but to me it seems 'inconsistent' and as we've seen with Elisabetta it might take a little while before they have sorted these things out)
Are you not sure about the legal basis for it, or are you not sure that it is used? There's no question that the title is (consistently) used: The royal family, court, and civil registry have used it with absolute consistency (so far), even on the legal registration of birth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
However, initially she was called 'princess Elisabetta' (without HRH or a designation)... at least in their 'thank you cards' (see link in previous post). So, apparently the royal family did not think she was 'HRH princess Amedeo of Belgium'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Consistency is not the strongest characteristic of the Belgian monarchy... But the current card seamlessly fits in standing practice and tradition. Finally.
In her most current thank-you cards (the ones sent for her daughter's birthday and her own birthday in 2017), she was again called Princess Elisabetta.
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  #269  
Old 04-02-2018, 06:40 PM
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Archduchess Anna Astrid of Austria-Este is currently 7th in line to the Belgian throne surely the Belgian royal court can clarify her title?
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  #270  
Old 04-02-2018, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Archduchess Anna Astrid of Austria-Este is currently 7th in line to the Belgian throne surely the Belgian royal court can clarify her title?
Is there an address we can write to in order to seek clarification ?
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  #271  
Old 04-02-2018, 06:58 PM
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Clarification would be nice to have, but at least the court has been consistent with styling her Princess Anna Astrid (rather than Archduchess Anna Astrid). Read the official statements and birth certificate here:

Titles of the Belgian Royal Family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Is there an address we can write to in order to seek clarification ?
There is contact information here, though I have no idea whether the Palace would send a reply.

https://www.monarchie.be/en/monarchy...people/contact
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  #272  
Old 04-03-2018, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
If I might add an alternative solution, it is also a possibility that she is only allowed the style of HRH when she uses her husband's title as a courtesy.
To correct myself, the card sent out in connection with Anna Astrid's birthday seems to have used both "Princess Elisabetta" and "Royal Highness" regarding Lili Rosboch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
- Letters from the household of Princess Astrid (one in English is pictured in the photograph here) styled her granddaughter as Princess Anna Astrid.
"Their Royal Highnesses Princess Astrid, Prince Lorenz, Prince Amedeo and Princess Elisabetta thank you for the kind wishes you have sent on the occasion of the first birthday of our little sunshine Princess Anna Astrid.

Jan Matthysen
Ambassador (ret.)
Advisor to Princess Astrid"


Addressing the previous discussions in the thread, pertaining to who is seen as a descendant "in direct line", here is the Belgian legal system's concept of "direct line", defined by the Civil Code.

Dutch - LOI - WET
French - LOI - WET

Translated into English:

Quote:
Art. 735. The proximity of consanguinity is stipulated by the number of generations; each generation is called a degree.

Art. 736. The succession of the degrees makes the line: the succession of degrees between people who descend one from the other is called direct line; the succession of degrees between people who do not descend from each other, but who descend from a common ancestor, collateral line.

[…]
In Dutch:

Quote:
Art. 735. De afstand in bloedverwantschap wordt bepaald door het getal van de generaties; elke generatie wordt een graad genoemd.

Art. 736. De opvolging van graden maakt de lijn : men noemt rechte lijn de opvolging van graden tussen personen die de ene van de andere afstammen; zijlijn, de opvolging van graden tussen personen die niet de ene van de andere, maar van een gemene stamvader afstammen.

[...]
In French:

Quote:
Art. 735. La proximité de parenté s'établit par le nombre de générations; chaque génération s'appelle un degré.

Art. 736. La suite des degrés forme la ligne : on appelle ligne directe la suite des degrés entre personnes qui descendent l'une de l'autre; ligne collatérale, la suite des degrés entre personnes qui ne descendent pas les unes des autres, mais qui descendent d'un auteur commun.

[...]
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  #273  
Old 04-03-2018, 06:45 PM
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To correct myself, the card sent out in connection with Anna Astrid's birthday seems to have used both "Princess Elisabetta" and "Royal Highness" regarding Lili Rosboch.
The 'their royal highnesses could also refer to only the first three (Astrid, Lorenz and Amedeo; as that would be more consistent with previous cards). Interestingly Anna Astrid is not considered a (royal) highness (which apparently is inconsistent with her birth certificate on which she was considered a imperial and royal highness (as an archduchess of Austria-Este no doubt) but a princess of nothing...
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  #274  
Old 04-03-2018, 07:02 PM
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I think "princess Elisabetta" or "princess Anna-Astrid" are a sort of easygoing way, like we see (in media) "Duchess Catherine". I have also seen communiqué s by the Dutch Court saying "Koning Willem-Alexander en Koningin Máxima" while their style is The King and Queen Máxima. I think they try to be more accessible. Maybe that happens here as well.
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  #275  
Old 04-03-2018, 07:09 PM
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The 'their royal highnesses could also refer to only the first three (Astrid, Lorenz and Amedeo; as that would be more consistent with previous cards). Interestingly Anna Astrid is not considered a (royal) highness (which apparently is inconsistent with her birth certificate on which she was considered a imperial and royal highness (as an archduchess of Austria-Este no doubt) but a princess of nothing...
It is the same with the cards sent by Filip and Mathilde and Laurent and Claire in connection with their children's birthdays. The children are called Prince(ss) without a predicate and the parents are called Their Majesties or Their Royal Highnesses.
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  #276  
Old 04-03-2018, 09:44 PM
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The fact that Astrid’s family think of themselves as princes of the Austro-Hungarian Empire confuses things. I know other posters don’t necessarily agree, but my interpretation still is that, post-2015:

1. Persons who are born as children or grandchildren of the King or the heir to the throne are princes/princesses of Belgium and HRHs.

2. All other dynasts who are not in category 1 above are, however, also princes and princesses, but not HRHs or ‘“of Belgium”..

The distinction is similar to the one between “enfants/ petits-enfants de France” and “princes du sang”. in the old French monarchy.

Royal wives on the other hand are “of Belgium” and HRHs in their own right only if they are given that title and style by a specific royal decree. Otherwise, they may use their husbands’ title and style by courtesy,

Hence, Claire is HRH Princess Claire of Belgium; Lili is HRH Princess Amedeo of Belgium,Archduchess of Austria-Este, and Anna—Astrid is Princess Anna-Astrid, Archduchess of Austria-Este with no HRH or “of Belgium”.
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  #277  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:34 PM
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Can you explain the old French system? That might help interpret the confusing Belgium situation. Thanks in advance!
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  #278  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:55 PM
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The children of the King, children of the Dauphin, and, I believe, children of the eldest son of the Dauphin were “enfants de France”. The grandchildren of the King in male line (other than the children of the Dauphin) were “petits-enfants de France”. Both enfants and petits-enfants de France had the style of HRH.

All other descendants in male line of Hugh Capet who were not either enfants or petits-enfants de France were “ princes du sang”. The most senior agnate who was not in the Maison de France in particular was the “premier prince du sang” ( a position once held by the Bourbons, the Bourbon-Condés, and the Orléans at different times). I believe “princes du sang” were entitled to the style of Serene Highness, but they were not HRHs or members of the Royal Family (Maison de France).

Generally speaking, Dynasts in France were , however, referred to by their peerages, rather than being called “Prince xxx”.
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  #279  
Old 04-03-2018, 11:20 PM
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Thanks! So, these princes du sang; would they just be 'prince Julien' or '(HSH) prince Julien of France/Something else (such as Bourbon/Orléans/i.e. their 'house')'?

Important difference seems to be that they were princes by blood according to the rules of their house of origin as male-line descendants; this is not the case for the Belgian great grandchildren in female line - who seem to apply it quite arbitrarily (as for example king Leopold own grandchildren by his youngest daughter aren't even addressed as prince and princess nor are any (other) great grandchildren of former Belgian monarchs in female line - unless a prince/princess because of their paternal lineage).
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  #280  
Old 04-04-2018, 12:02 AM
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The French posters probably can give you a better answer, but my understanding is that nobody was actually (normally) called “ Prince”. In the Old Regime. The princes of the Royal Family had peerages and were referred to by their titles in the peerage. The “family name”, if you will, of all princes of the blood who descended from a particular petit-enfant de France was in turn the territorial designation of that petit-enfant’s peerage ; the peerage itself descended by male primogeniture and was held at each generation by the head of that collateral branch of the Capetian dynasty. I. Also believe that, in conversation, people were never called “Royal Highness” or “Serene Highness”, but rather Monseigneur, Madame or Monsieur.

In Belgium, however, the royal decree of 2015 explicitly says that the style of Royal Highness precedes in public and private acts the names of persons who bear the title of Prince/Princess of Belgium. Moreover, in addition to the princes/princesses of Belgium properly, the decree mentions other “princes and princesses” born as direct descendants of Leopold I , but who are not entitled to the same prefix of HRH. or to the title of “Prince or princess of Belgium”. I think Anna-Astrid falls under that category.

The members by birth of the Belgian Royal Family properly are consistently cited in official documents as

Son Altesse Royale le / la Prince/Princesse xxx, Prince/Princesse de Belgique

and don’t use any family name. If they have an additional dynastic title like Duc/Duchesse de Brabant or Comte de Flandre, it appears before Prince/Princesse de Belgique and after the given names. The royal wives, however. use their maiden family name, e.g.

Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Claire Coombs, Princesse de Belgique

versus

Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique

In second person, however, as in the French custom, princes/princesses of Belgium are normally addressed as Monseigneur/Madame rather than Royal Highness.

In conclusion, my interpretation is that prince is a rank (shared by all dynasts) whereas ‘prince of Belgium’ is a title reserved only to members (or former members ) of the Royal Family, which the 2015 decree narrowed down to persons born as children or grandchildren of the monarch or the heir to the throne.
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