Titles of the Belgian Royal Family 1: Ending Aug.2023


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By my understanding just the Belgian (!) surname de Saxe-Cobourg is used in the case of the children of Delphine. Her lawyers made no any mention of German titles. Also not in the case of her siblings.

Albert de Saxe-Cobourg, prince de Belgique

Philippe de Saxe-Cobourg, prince de Belgique
Elisabeth de Saxe-Cobourg, princesse de Belgique
Gabriel de Saxe-Cobourg, prince de Belgique
Eléonore de Saxe-Cobourg, princesse de Belgique
Emmanuel de Saxe-Cobourg, prince de Belgique

Astrid de Saxe-Cobourg, princesse de Belgique
Amedeo d'Autriche-Este, prince de Belgique
Anna Astrid d'Autriche-Este, princesse de Belgique
Maximilian d'Autriche-Este, prince de Belgique
Maria Laura d'Autriche-Este, princesse de Belgique
Joachim d'Autriche-Este, prince de Belgique
Luisa Maria d'Autriche-Este, princesse de Belgique
Laetitia Maria d'Autriche-Este, prince de Belgique

Laurent de Saxe-Cobourg, prince de Belgique
Louise de Saxe-Cobourg, princesse de Belgique
Nicolas de Saxe-Cobourg, prince de Belgique
Aymeric de Saxe-Cobourg, prince de Belgique

Delphine de Saxe-Cobourg, princesse de Belgique
Joséphine de Saxe-Cobourg, princesse de Belgique
Oscar de Saxe-Cobourg, prince de Belgique


But that is simply not how the royal family goes about their titles and surnames.

Whenever the surname "de Saxe-Cobourg" is used, it is always prefixed by the title "Prince/sse".

Whenever the surname "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" is used, it is always prefixed by the title "Archiduc/hesse".


See how it was written in Princess Henriette's birth certificate in 1870.


Son Altesse Royale Madame Henriette-Marie-Charlotte-Antoinette duchesse de Saxe, Princesse de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha

Son Altesse Royale Monseigneur le Prince Philippe-Eugène-Ferdinand-Marie-Clément-Baudouin-Léopold-George Comte de Flandre, Duc de Saxe, Prince de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha


As for d'Autriche-Este, see how the surname "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" was written in Princess Anna Astrid's birth certificate in 2016.


Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)
 
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What motivated the BRF to pick up the German names and titles after discarding them nearly a hundred years ago? The lack of a clear new "Windsor" identity?
 
What motivated the BRF to pick up the German names and titles after discarding them nearly a hundred years ago? The lack of a clear new "Windsor" identity?

By my understanding the royal family uses the Belgian surname de Saxe-Cobourg (not van Saksen-Coburg and not von Sachsen-Coburg). Then they have the title Prince (Princess) of Belgium, which is no surname but a title.

Surnames are regulated by the Civic Code. Titles by another laws.
 
By my understanding the royal family uses the Belgian surname de Saxe-Cobourg (not van Saksen-Coburg and not von Sachsen-Coburg). Then they have the title Prince (Princess) of Belgium, which is no surname but a title.

"de Saxe-Cobourg" is considered a surname, but documents exist to prove that it has always been used with the title of "Prince/sse" in the form "Prince/sse de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha".

Again, see the documentation in my previous post.

See how it was written in Princess Henriette's birth certificate in 1870.


Son Altesse Royale Madame Henriette-Marie-Charlotte-Antoinette duchesse de Saxe, Princesse de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha

Son Altesse Royale Monseigneur le Prince Philippe-Eugène-Ferdinand-Marie-Clément-Baudouin-Léopold-George Comte de Flandre, Duc de Saxe, Prince de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha

It would most likely become "Prins/es van Saksen-Coburg-Gotha" in documents written in Dutch, in the same way that "Prince/sse de Belgique" becomes "Prins/es van België".


Surnames are regulated by the Civic Code. Titles by another laws.

Correct.
 
Whenever the surname "de Saxe-Cobourg" is used, it is always prefixed by the title "Prince/sse".

Whenever the surname "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" is used, it is always prefixed by the title "Archiduc/hesse".
I'm sorry but "de Saxe-Cobourg" and "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" are not surnames in your examples.

Really the question about surname of male line descendants of the dynasty is still open.

HRH Princess Delphine, Princess of Begium?
HRH Delphine of Saxe-Coburg, Princess of Begium?
HRH Prince Laurent, Prince of Begium?
HRH Monseigneur le Prince Laurent, Prince of Begium?
HRH Laurent de Saxe-Cobourg, Prince of Begium?

What is surname Aymeric will translate to his children?
 
I'm sorry but "de Saxe-Cobourg" and "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" are not surnames in your examples.

They are. Please see these posts for information on how Belgian law differentiates titles from surnames.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-18.html#post2324591
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-18.html#post2324930
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-18.html#post2321611

HRH Princess Delphine, Princess of Begium?
HRH Delphine of Saxe-Coburg, Princess of Begium?

From precedent, it would be:

HRH Princess Delphine, Princess of Belgium, (Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha)

The portion I have written in parentheses would be unused.
 
I'm sorry but "de Saxe-Cobourg" and "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" are not surnames in your examples.

Really the question about surname of male line descendants of the dynasty is still open.

HRH Princess Delphine, Princess of Begium?
HRH Delphine of Saxe-Coburg, Princess of Begium?
HRH Prince Laurent, Prince of Begium?
HRH Monseigneur le Prince Laurent, Prince of Begium?
HRH Laurent de Saxe-Cobourg, Prince of Begium?

What is surname Aymeric will translate to his children?


Under the royal decree of 2015, it should be


HRH Prince/Princess [given name(s)] [surname(s), if used], [dynastic titles], Prince/Princess of Belgium, [other inherited titles]

Given that Delphine adopted Saxe-Cobourg as her legal surname and given that she doesn't have any dynastic title, I assume she will be referred to as

HRH Princess Delphine Michèle Anne Marie Ghislaine de Saxe-Cobourg, Princess of Belgium.


Unlike Delphine, the descendants of King Albert II and Queen Paola do not use a surname. They are simply, e.g.


His Majesty King Philippe Léopold Louis Marie, King of the Belgians, Prince of Belgium.


His Royal Highness Prince Laurent Benoît Baudouin Marie, Prince of Belgium.


Her Royal Highness Princess Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchess of Brabant, Princess of Belgium.


Although they could do it under the Royal Decree of 2015, they also don't use "Prince/Princess of Saxe-Coburg" and "Duke/Duchess of Saxony" postponed to "Prince/Princess of Belgium".
 
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Under the royal decree of 2015, it should be

HRH Prince/Princess [given name(s)] [surname(s), if used], [dynastic titles], Prince/Princess of Belgium, [other inherited titles]
Where in 2015 decree you can find the first prince/ss?

...portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom...

HRH Princess Delphine Michèle Anne Marie Ghislaine de Saxe-Cobourg, Princess of Belgium.
It sounds like Princess de Saxe-Cobourg, i.e. impossible.

Unlike Delphine, the descendants of King Albert II and Queen Paola do not use a surname.
Why they does not use a surname? And what exactly surname they does not use?
 
Where in 2015 decree you can find the first prince/ss?

...portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom...

It sounds like Princess de Saxe-Cobourg, i.e. impossible.

Why they does not use a surname? And what exactly surname they does not use?

Royals usually do not use a surname....
 
HRH Princess Delphine, Princess of Belgium, (Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha)
Where is her surname "de Saxe-Cobourg"?

And in any case she can not be Duchess of Saxony. This is foreign title.
 
Royals usually do not use a surname....
Exactly. But Delphine (her lawyers) say she pretend in equality in all matters. So if Laurent is royal and does not use a surname then why Delphine use surname in the day of her victory?
 
Exactly. But Delphine (her lawyers) say she pretend in equality in all matters. So if Laurent is royal and does not use a surname then why Delphine use surname in the day of her victory?

Probably because Laurent lives as a prince and doesn't need a surname. Delphine is still intending a life as a private citizen, so she does.
 
Although they could do it under the Royal Decree of 2015, they also don't use "Prince/Princess of Saxe-Coburg" and "Duke/Duchess of Saxony" postponed to "Prince/Princess of Belgium".

But as I asked previously, if the "other titles" were meant to be non-obligatory, I don't see why the same "if applicable" clause that was mentioned for the family name and dynastic title was not also applied to the "other titles".


Where in 2015 decree you can find the first prince/ss?

It is not found in the 2015 decree. However, it is found in the legal identification of members of the Royal Family.

See these posts, and the previous posts to which I linked, for documented examples.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-17.html#post2136957
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-18.html#post2314401
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-20.html#post2346561
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-17.html#post2137088



It sounds like Princess de Saxe-Cobourg, i.e. impossible.

[...]

And in any case she can not be Duchess of Saxony. This is foreign title

Foreign or not, the Belgian royal family insists they possess those titles.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-20.html#post2346561
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-17.html#post2186636


Where is her surname "de Saxe-Cobourg"?

I answered that here.


Probably because Laurent lives as a prince and doesn't need a surname. Delphine is still intending a life as a private citizen, so she does.

Laurent and other princes and princesses of Belgium use "of Belgium" as an pseudo-surname in private life.
 
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Foreign or not, the Belgian royal family insists they possess those titles.
à l’exception des enfants/petit-enfant d’Astrid et Lorenz :)

I mean with exception of Delphine and her children. In condition of original titles usege. And children of Maria Laura will not be Archdukes.

I answered that here.
Sorry, but I can not find your answer.

My question is simple. HRH Princess Delphine, Princess of Belgium (or her lawyers) prefer to use surname. So what variant will be correct:
HRH Princess Delphine, Princess of Belgium
HRH Delphine de Saxe-Cobourg, Princess of Belgium
or something else?

Especially because she IS NOT Princess of Saxe-Coburg.
 
à l’exception des enfants/petit-enfant d’Astrid et Lorenz :)

Correct. :flowers:

I mean with exception of Delphine and her children. In condition of original titles usege. And children of Maria Laura will not be Archdukes.

[...]

Especially because she IS NOT Princess of Saxe-Coburg.

We don't know the specifics of the ruling of the court of appeals. If the court ruled that Delphine bears exactly the same titles and surnames as her half-siblings Astrid and Laurent, who according to the Palace are Duchess and Duke of Saxony, Princess and Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, then it is unavoidable that Delphine is also Duchess of Saxony and Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.


Sorry, but I can not find your answer.

My question is simple. HRH Princess Delphine, Princess of Belgium (or her lawyers) prefer to use surname. So what variant will be correct:
HRH Princess Delphine, Princess of Belgium
HRH Delphine de Saxe-Cobourg, Princess of Belgium
or something else?

Whenever the surname "de Saxe-Cobourg" is used, it is always prefixed by the title "Prince/sse".

[...]

See how it was written in Princess Henriette's birth certificate in 1870.


Son Altesse Royale Madame Henriette-Marie-Charlotte-Antoinette duchesse de Saxe, Princesse de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha

Son Altesse Royale Monseigneur le Prince Philippe-Eugène-Ferdinand-Marie-Clément-Baudouin-Léopold-George Comte de Flandre, Duc de Saxe, Prince de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha​

Translated from French, the Count of Flanders was written in the birth certificate as

HRH Monseigneur Prince Philippe [...] Count of Flanders, Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha​

The royal family no longer uses Monseigneur or Madame (that can be seen in the more recent examples I linked), and Delphine does not bear a dynastic title such as Count of Flanders but does bear the title Princess of Belgium. Otherwise, applying the same form to Delphine, she is

HRH Princess Delphine [...], Princess of Belgium, Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha​

The words "of Saxe-Coburg" in "Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" comprise her legal surname, similarly to how the "d'Udekem d'Acoz" in "Countess d'Udekem d'Acoz" comprises the legal surname of Queen Mathilde.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-18.html#post2324591
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-18.html#post2324930
 
HRH Monseigneur Prince Philippe [...] Count of Flanders, Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha​
HRH Princess Delphine [...], Princess of Belgium, Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha​
I have new idea. What if since 2015 decree the new princes will be
HRH Name Surname, Prince of Belgium
instead of
HRH Prince Name, Prince of Belgium
?

While Laurent remained his style as HRH Prince Laurent, Prince of Belgium, Delphine's style is HRH Delphine de Saxe-Cobourg, Princess of Belgium.
 
Correct. :flowers:



We don't know the specifics of the ruling of the court of appeals. If the court ruled that Delphine bears exactly the same titles and surnames as her half-siblings Astrid and Laurent, who according to the Palace are Duchess and Duke of Saxony, Princess and Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, then it is unavoidable that Delphine is also Duchess of Saxony and Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.






Translated from French, the Count of Flanders was written in the birth certificate as

HRH Monseigneur Prince Philippe [...] Count of Flanders, Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha​

The royal family no longer uses Monseigneur or Madame (that can be seen in the more recent examples I linked), and Delphine does not bear a dynastic title such as Count of Flanders but does bear the title Princess of Belgium. Otherwise, applying the same form to Delphine, she is

HRH Princess Delphine [...], Princess of Belgium, Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha​

The words "of Saxe-Coburg" in "Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" comprise her legal surname, similarly to how the "d'Udekem d'Acoz" in "Countess d'Udekem d'Acoz" comprises the legal surname of Queen Mathilde.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-18.html#post2324591
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-18.html#post2324930


Monseigneur, Madame (in Dutch: Mevrouw ) are used in Belgium to address princes or high nobility. While in the Netherlands, in a formal conversation, the form of address is Koninklijke Hoogheid to Prince Constantijn or to the Duke of Parma, in Belgium it is Monseigneur to Prince Laurent or to the Duke of Arenberg, to name some examples.

When you meet Queen Mathilde it is perfect to say Madame (Mevrouw) notwithstanding her formal form of address (Majesty) while in the neighbouring Netherlands people will say Majesteit to Queen Máxima.

Also in France we see this. While Prince Jean d'Orléans and his spouse Princess Philomena's are Altesse Royale, the form of address in conversations is Monseigneur or Madame.
 
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Royalty watcher Brigitte Balfoort said on the VTM that a dotation for Delphine is out of the question. She adds that it will be impossible for the children of Delphine to give the title to their future children. She thinks it is strange that Delphine did receive the title, since in the 2015 legal change it would only be available for descendants of King Filip.


I don't think that is correct. Under the 2015 royal decree, the title of Prince/Princess of Belgium with the prefix HRH is available to:


i) People who, at birth, are children or grandchildren of the King, or children or grandchildren of the heir to the throne.



ii) Children and grandchildren of King Albert II (thus also Delphine and her children).


iii) Persons not included in categories (i) and (ii) above who would be nonetheless Princes/Princesses of Belgium under the royal decree of 1891 (e.g. King Albert II's half-sisters, Queen Paola).



Category (i) is now the default rule, but, as far as I understand, applies only to persons who were born after the royal decree of 2015 came into effect. Categories (ii) and (iii) are legacy clauses that actually cover all living Princes/Princesses of Belgium other than Mathilde, Claire and Lorenz, who are Princes/Princesses of Belgium in their own right by virtue of specific, separate royal decrees.





So far, the main practical effect of the recent changes is that grandchildren of Princess Astrid born after 2015, namely Prince Amedeo's children, are no longer Prince/Princesses of Belgium as they would otherwise have been under the repealed royal decree of 1991.



There is a possible interpretation, however, that direct descendants of Leopold I who are not Princes/Princesses of Belgium under (i)-(iii) above, including Princess Astrid's, Prince Laurent's and Princess Delphine's grandchildren (and the respective descendants thereof) are or will still be plain Princes/Princesses (though not "of Belgium") under the royal decree of 2015. Although that is not clear, the court's ruling in Delphine's case might suggest that is so.


In summary, it is quite confusing and a bit of a mess (thus the veredict of the court).
 
I don't think that is correct. Under the 2015 royal decree, the title of Prince/Princess of Belgium with the prefix HRH is available to:

And neither we nor the royal experts know whether the decree(s) even played any part in the court's verdict.


i) People who, at birth, are children or grandchildren of the King, or children or grandchildren of the heir to the throne.

Interestingly, the Dutch translation explicitly says "born", whereas the original French version does not.

In de openbare en private akten die hen aanbelangen, voeren de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Koning, [...]

Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Roi ainsi que les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants,​


iii) Persons not included in categories (i) and (ii) above who would be nonetheless Princes/Princesses of Belgium under the royal decree of 1891 (e.g. King Albert II's half-sisters, Queen Paola).

My understanding is that the decree was not intended to apply to Paola, any more than it was intended to apply to Delphine. The words "The Princes and the Princesses" at the beginning of Articles 1 through 4, respectively, meant that the provisions in those articles only applied to princes and princesses, not to queens (Paola) or commoners (Delphine).

The reference to other titles to which they have the right by virtue of their ancestry would be inconsistent with applying it to Paola, who legally has none (in Belgian legal documents she is styled as "of the Princes Ruffo di Calabria", but not as a Princess Ruffo di Calabria).


Category (i) is now the default rule, but, as far as I understand, applies only to persons who were born after the royal decree of 2015 came into effect.

My interpretation is that it applies to persons who were living after the decree came into effect, and both Articles 1 and 2 apply to King Philippe's children.

Categories (ii) and (iii) are legacy clauses that actually cover all living Princes/Princesses of Belgium other than Mathilde, Claire and Lorenz, who are Princes/Princesses of Belgium in their own right by virtue of specific, separate royal decrees.

And interestingly enough, those decrees do not use the term "The Prince/Princess" to indicate the persons whom they apply to.

So far, the main practical effect of the recent changes is that grandchildren of Princess Astrid born after 2015, namely Prince Amedeo's children, are no longer Prince/Princesses of Belgium as they would otherwise have been under the repealed royal decree of 1991.

There is a possible interpretation, however, that direct descendants of Leopold I who are not Princes/Princesses of Belgium under (i)-(iii) above, including Princess Astrid's, Prince Laurent's and Princess Delphine's grandchildren (and the respective descendants thereof) are or will still be plain Princes/Princesses (though not "of Belgium") under the royal decree of 2015. Although that is not clear, the court's ruling in Delphine's case might suggest that is so.

As I said here: "It is ironic that they [certain royal experts] rely on Article 2 of the 2015 law to assert that Delphine has the right to be a princess while claiming that Astrid's grandchildren Anna Astrid and Maximilian have no right to be Belgian princes(ses), even when the formula "Princes and Princesses" specifying descendants of King Leopold I in Article 4 is identical to the formula specifying children and grandchildren of King Albert II in Article 2."


Links to the text of the law in Dutch and French are posted here

Translation:

Article 2. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty King Albert II carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their forename, and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their forename is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

[...]

Article 4. The Princes and Princesses, born in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.


I have asked several times for an explanation of those individuals' apparent double standards, but have received no answer yet.

I would still appreciate an explanation, even from someone who does not share their opinion.


Maybe she felt it was outside the scope of her suit? She already got the statute of limitations on paternity claims overturned, which must surely be useful to others.

Her suit did include a request for titles (for herself). But yes, I suppose her friend could have been referring to that earlier lawsuit.

He had to be forced by one of the highest courts in the land to publicly acknowledge he was her biological father. How exactly does that not constitute "denial"?

I believe Duc_et_Pair meant that he did not publicly release any statements claiming to not be her biological father.
 
If the final article was supposed to mean that each and every descendant of Leopold is a prince or princess, the Luxembourgian larger royal family would have some additional princes and princesses (including the children of the count Rodolphe of Limburg-Stirum). So, that seems an unlikely interpretation.

Personally, I agree. But the point I was making in that post is that if one interprets Article 2 to mean that each and every child and grandchild of Albert II is a prince or princess (including Delphine), then the only consistent interpretation of Article 4 is that each and every descendant of Leopold I is a prince or princess (including Anna Astrid and Maximilian).

Since I do not interpret Article 2 in that manner, and the court did not announce its interpretation of Articles 2 or 4, my comment does not apply to myself or to the court. ;)

But certain internet commentators do interpret Article 2 to apply to Delphine but deny that Article 4 applies to Anna Astrid and Maximilian. That is the opinion that I do not understand.


Personally, I would say that a possible interpretation of the court is that as children and grandchildren of Albert, Delphine and her children are princes and princesses of Belgium based on the second part (so, they are prince/princess; and in seems that in common practice normally the order HRH prince X of Y is used on all but official documents that use HRH X, prince(ss) of Y) - not the first part.

Official documents use HRH Prince/ss X, Prince/ss of Belgium. For example, see Prince Laurent's marriage act.


It indeed seems that Anna Astrid and Maximilian are treated by some as 'princes' and 'princesses' (which I still find confusing as to me it is illogical to be a prince/princess of nothing but many have argued that is exactly what the Belgian law implies)

There is no question that Anna Astrid is legally recognized in Belgium as a Princess ("of nothing", to use your words) - that was written in her birth certificate.

"A la rubrique « nom et prénoms », son acte de naissance porte en effet, comme nous avons pu le voir : « Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine) »."

"In the column 'surname and given names', her birth certificate uses, as a matter of fact, as we were able to see it: 'Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)'."​

The confusion is over why she was legally recognized as a Princess. There are many believable explanations: because she is the legitimate daughter of a Prince (this would be my guess), because she is a legitimate descendant in male line of emperors of Austria-Hungary, because she is a legitimate descendant of King Leopold I, etc.



The definition of issus is "Qui est né (de qqn)." - when it applies to a person -, so, 'who is born from'.
(or: "Qui provient (de qqch.)" - when it applies to something (a concept for example).

So, both directly or more implicitly refer to being born from a certain descendance.

Interesting, but are you certain it is that explicit? The dictionaries I consulted defined it differently.
 
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It appears that, indeed, Art. 2 was interpreted as literally applying to all children and grandchildren of Albert II, which suggests that Art 4 could be also read as meaning that all descendants of Leopold I are entitled to use "Prince"/" Princess" prefixed to their given names.

I would go further than "could". I do not see any (consistent) way that Article 2 can be read as applying to all children and grandchildren of Albert II, without also reading Article 4 as applying to all descendants of Leopold I.

Again, if a reading of that kind is possible, please explain it to me.


The former lawyer and expert in Nobility, jonkheer Adolph Robert Phoenix Boddaert LL.M. summarized on the website of Adel in Nederland:
[...]

The Court rejected this defense, partly because such an interpretation of the Royal Decree would be contrary to the principle of equality, described in articles 10 and 11 of the Belgian Constitution (comparable to article 1 of the Netherlands' Constitution). The Court therefore ruled that Delphine de Saxe-Cobourg and her children may use the title Prince (Princess) of Belgium and the predicate Royal Highness.

Bergen, October 5, 2020

Jonkheer Dolph Boddaert LL.M.

https://www.adelinnederland.nl/delphine-de-nieuwe-prinses-van-belgie/

Thanks! Did Jonkheer Boddaert have insight in the court documents as he presents both Delphine's argument and the former king's arguments? If so, that shows that Delphine indeed based her claim on second article that in the opinion of the court grants the title of prince(ss) of Belgium and the style of royal highness to all children and grandchildren of Albert.

As both Delphine's lawyers and Albert's lawyers communicated their arguments to the press prior to the hearing, he could have learned them from press reports. Article 2 of the 2015 royal decree was only one of the arguments stated by Delphine's lawyers.

Another argument they introduced was that Delphine deserved equal treatment with her siblings.

But the mentions of specific articles of the Constitution do give the impression that the Jonkheer has seen the judgment. However, the blog post gives only the press conference as a source. Was the Court's reliance on the Constitution mentioned at the press conference?


What about succession rights? Did the Court make any ruling on that issue? The text you quoted suggests that Delphine may not have laid a claim on succession rights, but that is at odds with press reports.

It would also be at odds with the announcement of her lawyer Marc Uyttendaele that his client "wants to have exactly the same privileges, titles and capacities as her brothers and her sister", and the reports from experts supportive of her case that she was seeking state funding and housing.

But it is possible that Jonkheer Boddaert simply didn't discuss those questions as they were not the subject of his article.
 
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Personally, I agree. But the point I was making in that post is that if one interprets Article 2 to mean that each and every child and grandchild of Albert II is a prince or princess (including Delphine), then the only consistent interpretation of Article 4 is that each and every descendant of Leopold I is a prince or princess (including Anna Astrid and Maximilian).

Since I do not interpret Article 2 in that manner, and the court did not announce its interpretation of Articles 2 or 4, my comment does not apply to myself or to the court. ;)

But certain internet commentators do interpret Article 2 to apply to Delphine but deny that Article 4 applies to Anna Astrid and Maximilian. That is the opinion that I do not understand.
I see. Although if the claim is made because each and every child and grandchild is a prince(ss) of Belgium and THEREFORE they are also a prince and princesses THAN it's a different logic than the one applied in article 4. So, from my perspective that is not inconsistent with not applying article 4 to Anna Astrid, Maximilian, Leopold, Constantin etc.

There is no question that Anna Astrid is legally recognized in Belgium as a Princess ("of nothing", to use your words) - that was written in her birth certificate.

"A la rubrique « nom et prénoms », son acte de naissance porte en effet, comme nous avons pu le voir : « Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine) »."

"In the column 'surname and given names', her birth certificate uses, as a matter of fact, as we were able to see it: 'Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)'."​

The confusion is over why she was legally recognized as a Princess. There are many believable explanations: because she is the legitimate daughter of a Prince (this would be my guess), because she is a legitimate descendant in male line of emperors of Austria-Hungary, because she is a legitimate descendant of King Leopold I, etc.
So, would you argue that Article 4 applies to Anna Astrid and Maximilian? And what about all the other descendants? Or do you suggest that this article is NOT what makes them prince and princess; but just some 'general custom' - in which the title "prince of Belgium" is not passed on to the next generation but the first part 'prince(ss)' is?
 
Interesting, but are you certain it is that explicit? The dictionaries I consulted defined it differently.
No, not fully sure. Maybe a mother tongue speaker of French can help us out - but this was the definition I found and it did coincide nicely with the Dutch version.
 
I see. Although if the claim is made because each and every child and grandchild is a prince(ss) of Belgium and THEREFORE they are also a prince and princesses THAN it's a different logic than the one applied in article 4. So, from my perspective that is not inconsistent with not applying article 4 to Anna Astrid, Maximilian, Leopold, Constantin etc.

Interesting idea! And thank you for the reply. :flowers:

But can that interpretation resolve the inconsistency? If Article 2 is interpreted as stating that "each and every child and grandchild of Albert II is a prince(ss) of Belgium and THEREFORE they are also a prince or princess", then how could the same wording in Article 4 not be interpreted as "each and every descendant of Leopold I carries the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right and THEREFORE they are also a prince or princess"?

The persistent problem is that the wording "the Princes and the Princesses ... born in direct descendance" is identical.


I will repost the translation for convenience:

Article 2. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty King Albert II carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their forename, and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their forename is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

[...]

Article 4. The Princes and Princesses, born in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.​


So, would you argue that Article 4 applies to Anna Astrid and Maximilian? And what about all the other descendants? Or do you suggest that this article is NOT what makes them prince and princess; but just some 'general custom' [...]

As I've said before: I don't know why Anna Astrid was titled as a princess in her birth certificate and by the Palace. :flowers:

If I had to guess, my best guess would be that it was because of the general Belgian custom that titles of nobility pass in the legitimate male lineage. Unlike the title Prince/ss of Belgium, nothing in the 2015 royal decree limited the transmission of the titular dignity of Prince/ss (which Amedeo held from birth, so independently from being created a Prince of Belgium five years later in 1991). But again, that is a mere guess.

ETA: And limiting the titular dignity of Prince/ss would have required stripping it from several Belgian noble families (Ligne, Arenberg, etc.) which already hold it.
 
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Essentially we can say that there was only one family with the title Prince (Princess) of Belgium.

Now there are two families with this title:

The family de Saxe-Cobourg (including Joséphine and Oscar de Saxe-Cobourg formerly O'Hare)
The family d'Autriche-Este
 
The family de Saxe-Cobourg (including Joséphine and Oscar de Saxe-Cobourg formerly O'Hare)

The children's surnames were changed from O'Hare to de Saxe-Cobourg? Are you sure about that?
 
Essentially we can say that there was only one family with the title Prince (Princess) of Belgium.

Now there are two families with this title:

The family de Saxe-Cobourg (including Joséphine and Oscar de Saxe-Cobourg formerly O'Hare)
The family d'Autriche-Este

I don't see a reason to consider Princess Astrid's descendants a different family simply because they have a different legal surname, but applying that standard, the families Ruffo di Calabria, d'Udekem d'Acoz, and Coombs also have the title Princess of Belgium.

Women in Belgium, even in the royal family, do not legally change their surnames after they marry. For instance, Princess Claire was styled in the state paper of the Belgian government as follows.

Prinses Claire Coombs, Prinses van België

(Princess Claire Coombs, Princess of Belgium)​


The children's surnames were changed from O'Hare to de Saxe-Cobourg? Are you sure about that?

Different newspapers have stated differently, and I have not seen a direct answer from Princess Delphine's attorneys (perhaps someone else has?). My guess would be that they have not changed their surnames since the overwhelming majority of Belgians, including Princess Astrid's children for their legal names, continue to follow the patrilineal naming convention.
 
But can that interpretation resolve the inconsistency? If Article 2 is interpreted as stating that "each and every child and grandchild of Albert II is a prince(ss) of Belgium and THEREFORE they are also a prince or princess", then how could the same wording in Article 4 not be interpreted as "each and every descendant of Leopold I carries the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right and THEREFORE they are also a prince or princess"?
Oh, God!

Article 1-3: "some descendants of Leopold I IS princes(ses) of Belgium".
Article 4: "other descendants of Leopold I IS NOT princes(ses) of Belgium".
 
Oh, God!

Article 1-3: "some descendants of Leopold I IS princes(ses) of Belgium".
Article 4: "other descendants of Leopold I IS NOT princes(ses) of Belgium".

Please read more carefully. The discussion was not about the title of prince(ss) of Belgium.
 
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