The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #201  
Old 02-05-2018, 12:42 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 5,661
The confusion seems to arise because the 2015 Royal Decree mentions "the princes and princesses" born in direct descendance of King Léopold I who, nonetheless, do not hold the title of "Prince/Princess of Belgium" and the corresponding style of HRH.

After much thought, my personal interpretation is that the Belgian royal decrees use the words "prince" or "princess" in the old-fashioned sense as a synonim of "dynast". In that sense, any person eligible to succeed to the throne is theoretically born a "prince" or "princess" although the title of "Prince/Princess of Belgium" is reserved only to those persons who are born as children or grandchildren of the king or the heir to the throne.

Under that interpretation, the official designation of a prince of Belgium would be:

His/Her Royal Highness the Prince/Princess [Given Names without family name], [Dynastic Titles] , [Prince/Princess of Belgium], [Other Inherited Titles]

For example: Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique

Other dynasts who are not princes/princesses of Belgium should be registered, however, as:

Prince/Princess [Given Names] [Family Name], [Other inherited titles if applicable]

without
the style HRH.

Anna-Astrid's case is confusing because her Austrian titles got mixed in her name even though they are only titles of pretense. For example, I don't think she should be legally "HI&RH" in Belgium, but that style was nonetheless used in her birth certificate.

Quote:
The first line speaks about the princes and princesses, descendants in direct lineage to King Leopold I. But Anna-Astrid is a descendant in direct lineage from the House of Austria-Este, she is no direct descendant of Leopold I.
The previous royal decrees (of 1891 and 1991) used the words "descendants in direct male lineage", but the qualification of paternal line was explicitly dropped in the 2015 decree. Going back to my interpretation that prince/princess means "dynast" in those decrees, my conclusion is that the change in wording is meant to signify that descendants of King Léopold I born in maternal line are now also considered dynasts and, hence, also princes or princesses.

I believe, however, that the change does not retroactively apply to the descendants of the daughters of King Léopold III, but only to the descendants of King Albert II who became dynasts after the introduction of equal primogeniture.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #202  
Old 02-05-2018, 01:28 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The confusion seems to arise because the 2015 Royal Decree mentions "the princes and princesses" born in direct descendance of King Léopold I who, nonetheless, do not hold the title of "Prince/Princess of Belgium" and the corresponding style of HRH.

After much thought, my personal interpretation is that the Belgian royal decrees use the words "prince" or "princess" in the old-fashioned sense as a synonim of "dynast". In that sense, any person eligible to succeed to the throne is theoretically born a "prince" or "princess" although the title of "Prince/Princess of Belgium" is reserved only to those persons who are born as children or grandchildren of the king or the heir to the throne.

Under that interpretation, the official designation of a prince of Belgium would be:

His/Her Royal Highness the Prince/Princess [Given Names without family name], [Dynastic Titles] , [Prince/Princess of Belgium], [Other Inherited Titles]

For example: Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique

Other dynasts who are not princes/princesses of Belgium should be registered, however, as:

Prince/Princess [Given Names] [Family Name], [Other inherited titles if applicable]

without
the style HRH.

Anna-Astrid's case is confusing because her Austrian titles got mixed in her name even though they are only titles of pretense. For example, I don't think she should be legally "HI&RH" in Belgium, but that style was nonetheless used in her birth certificate.

The previous royal decrees (of 1891 and 1991) used the words "descendants in direct male lineage", but the qualification of paternal line was explicitly dropped in the 2015 decree. Going back to my interpretation that prince/princess means "dynast" in those decrees, my conclusion is that the change in wording is meant to signify that descendants of King Léopold I born in maternal line are now also considered dynasts and, hence, also princes or princesses.

I believe, however, that the change does not retroactively apply to the descendants of the daughters of King Léopold III, but only to the descendants of King Albert II who became dynasts after the introduction of equal primogeniture.
I find this an utmost confusing way. When Laetitia Maria marries an untitled gentleman, Mr Van Aert and they get a son, Luc, is then his title "prins Luc Van Aert" analogue to his cousine "prinses Anna-Astrid"?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #203  
Old 02-05-2018, 05:24 PM
Marchesina's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Pescara, Italy
Posts: 808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I find this an utmost confusing way. When Laetitia Maria marries an untitled gentleman, Mr Van Aert and they get a son, Luc, is then his title "prins Luc Van Aert" analogue to his cousine "prinses Anna-Astrid"?
I agree, if this change was made in order to reduce the princes/princesses in the family, well this creates an even bigger mess.
Reply With Quote
  #204  
Old 02-05-2018, 06:19 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I find this an utmost confusing way. When Laetitia Maria marries an untitled gentleman, Mr Van Aert and they get a son, Luc, is then his title "prins Luc Van Aert" analogue to his cousine "prinses Anna-Astrid"?
I'm afraid I do not know. It has not been confirmed by the Palace whether the female-line grandchildren of Astrid and Lorenz and of Laurent and Claire are to become Princes and Princesses.

As shown in the decree, all descendants in the direct lineage of King Leopold I who are Princes and Princesses will hold other inherited titles at the same time. This point suggests that the children of Princess Laetitia Maria and Mr. van Aert would only become Princes and Princesses if they would be entitled to other inherited titles.

Quote:
Article 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Roi ainsi que les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Prince héritier ou de la Princesse héritière portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale.

[...]

Art. 4. Les Princes et Princesses, issus de la descendance directe de Sa Majesté Léopold, Georges, Chrétien, Frédéric de Saxe-Cobourg qui ne sont pas visés par les articles 1er à 3, portent à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils le portent, de leur nom de famille, les titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchesina View Post
I agree, if this change was made in order to reduce the princes/princesses in the family, well this creates an even bigger mess.
The noble families of Belgium are rife with princes and princesses: the Princes and Princesses of Ligne, the Princes and Princesses of Arenberg, etc. To reduce the number of princes/princesses in the royal family is therefore unnecessary as, to Belgians, the title of Prince/Princess is not tied to being a royal.

According to the decree, its objective was to limit only the number of Princes and Princesses of Belgium.

"Considérant qu'il est indiqué de limiter l'accroissement du nombre des porteurs du titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à travers les branches collatérales de la Famille Royale;"

"Considering it is apt to limit the growth of the number of the holders of the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium in the collateral branches of the Royal Family;"


Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
Reply With Quote
  #205  
Old 02-05-2018, 06:39 PM
maria-olivia's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 5,815
The Children of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent are the last Prince and Princesses of Belgium by birth.
Princesses Lea and Esmeralda ara the last Princesses of Belgium.
Reply With Quote
  #206  
Old 02-05-2018, 06:58 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 5,661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchesina View Post
I agree, if this change was made in order to reduce the princes/princesses in the family, well this creates an even bigger mess.
If you think about it, it is similar to the old French tradition where the children and grandchildren of the King or the Dauphin (in certain cases) were enfants de France or petits-enfants de France, whereas other dynasts (male line descendants of Hugh Capet) were simply "princes of the blood" ( princes du sang).

So, now there are "princes/princesses of Belgium" , who are recognized as the official members of the royal family and as HRHs, and other princes or princesses of the blood, who are direct descendants of Léopold I (previously only in male line, but now also in maternal line),

A different question is whether an ordinary Mr Luc Vanderdorpe who nonetheless has "royal blood", will be registered in his birth certificate as "Prince Luc Vanderdorpe" or not, I guess we won't know that until the daughters of Princess Astrid or Princess Louise have children of their own.
Reply With Quote
  #207  
Old 02-06-2018, 04:03 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,816
The most logic thing is that the children of Amedeo, Maria Laura, Joachim, Luisa Maria and Laetitia Maria follow the rules for the Belgian nobility.

That means that the children of Amedeo and Joachim are (will be) Archdukes and -duchesses of Austria-Este.

The children of Maria Laura, Luisa Maria and Laetitia Maria will have their father's eventual titles. Imagine that Maria Laura marries a graaf d'Udekem d'Acoz. They get a son, Albert. When they follow the assumed "prinses Anna-Astrid" example, is then his title prins Albert graaf d'Udekem d'Acoz? That is really a clash of titles and styles.
Reply With Quote
  #208  
Old 02-06-2018, 04:33 AM
Marchesina's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Pescara, Italy
Posts: 808
Sure they are decreasing the number of Princes/Princesses of Belgium, but giving children from a collateral branch the same title as the main branch is rather messy, I think you all can agree on that. If it is true that the family has started using the German family name again (and therefore the titles as well), than the collateral branches should use lower titles (ducal ones for instance), the way they do in The Netherlands, for example, while still being part of the extended royal family.
Reply With Quote
  #209  
Old 02-06-2018, 05:10 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,816
The most "logic" solution would be:

- the children of Princess Elisabeth: prins (prinses) van België and the eventual title and surname of their father *

- the children of Prince Gabriel: prins (prinses) van België, prins (prinses) van Saksen-Coburg en Gotha, hertog (hertogin) van Saksen

- the children of Prince Emmanuel: prins (prinses) van België, prins (prinses) van Saksen-Coburg en Gotha, hertog (hertogin) van Saksen

- the children of Princess Leonore: prins (prinses) van België and the eventual title and surname of their father *
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- the children of Prince Amedeo: aartshertog (aartshertogin) van Oostenrijk-Este

- the children of Princess Maria Laura: the eventual title and the surname of their father

- the children of Princess Luisa Maria: the eventual title and the surname of their father

- the children of Prince Joachim: aartshertog (aartshertogin) van Oostenrijk-Este

- the children of Princess Letitia Maria: the eventual title and the surname of their father

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- the children of Princess Louise: the eventual title and the surname of their father

- the children of Prince Nicolas: prins (prinses) van Saksen-Coburg en Gotha, hertog (hertogin) van Saksen

- the children of Prince Aymeric: prins (prinses) van Saksen-Coburg en Gotha, hertog (hertogin) van Saksen

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* For an example: Princess Elizabeth or Princess Leonore marries a graaf de la Boëssière-Thiennes, their children can be prins (prinses) van België, graaf (gravin) de la Boëssière-Thiennes.
Reply With Quote
  #210  
Old 02-06-2018, 06:20 AM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 21,164
I am not sure that logic and titles in the Benelux monarchies go well together. Thanks to those posters who share their knowledge of the matter in this thread.

The most logical thing would indeed be to create a secondary title for members that do not belong to the main line, princes of Coburg or even the entire Saxe-Coburg & Gotha. But the family started using the surname "de Belgique/van Belgie", so perhaps it is not likely they will return to their German origines at any point in the future.

The vagueness around the titles in Belgium perhaps means that no clear decision has been taken yet, other than that they will not be princes of Belgium. As we saw at Queen Paola's 80th birthday: the main line and the rest do not seem to be on speaking terms.

Are Amedeo's (future) child(ren) legally speaking even nobles? The Austria-Este title was not incorporated into the Belgian nobility AFAIK. This only happened for Archdukes Rudolf and Carl-Christian in 1978. Of course this may be a sensitive matter in the family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair
I find this an utmost confusing way. When Laetitia Maria marries an untitled gentleman, Mr Van Aert and they get a son, Luc, is then his title "prins Luc Van Aert" analogue to his cousine "prinses Anna-Astrid"?
Sounds like a prince Carnaval. Surely this option can not be the intention of the RF.
__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #211  
Old 02-06-2018, 07:42 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 5,661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchesina View Post
Sure they are decreasing the number of Princes/Princesses of Belgium, but giving children from a collateral branch the same title as the main branch it is rather messy, I think you all can agree on that. If it is true that the family has started using the German family name again (and therefore the titles as well), than the collateral branches should use lower titles (ducal ones for instance), the way they do in The Netherlands, for example and while still being part of the extended royal family.
They are not being given the same titles. Only people born as children or grandchildren of the King or of the heir to the throne will be "princes/princesses of Belgium". The designation of other dynasts (previously descendants in male line of King Léopold I) as princes/princesses is not new. As I said, it was already implicit in the royal decrees of 1891 and 1991 where the word "prince" without territorial designation should be read, as I see it, not in the British sense of a member of the royal family, but rather as meaning anyone who is "of royal blood".

The novelty in the 2015 decree compared to the previous one from 1991 is that:
  1. The descendants of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent beyond their children will no longer be "princes/princesses of Belgium" and, Anna Astrid's birth certificate notwithstanding, they should not be HRHs either. In that sense, they have been "demoted".
  2. However, the descendants in both paternal and maternal line of King Albert II who are not princes/princesses of Belgium are still implicitly princes/princesses in the French sense of a prince du sang, adjusted now for cognatic succession.
  3. The royal family, as I understand it, includes only the King and Queen, the princes and princesses of Belgium, and the former King and his wife upon abdication when applicable, but otherwise excludes other princes/princesses who are not "of Belgium".
As I said, it remains to be seen if "princes of the blood" who are not members of the royal family will use the title Prince/Princess as part of their legal name or not. I agree it will be weird if they call themselves Prince/Princess [Given Name] [Family Name].
Reply With Quote
  #212  
Old 02-06-2018, 08:44 AM
maria-olivia's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 5,815
Exemple in Luxembourg, I saw on her Chair in a Church before She came.
SAR et I l' Archiduchesse Marie Christine de Habsbourg, Comtesse Rodolphe de Limbourg-Stirum. (Their Children are Limbourg Stirum)
This is the new way to avoid too much Princes of Belgium and Luxembourg who are not from the main Branch.
Reply With Quote
  #213  
Old 02-06-2018, 09:04 AM
Marchesina's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Pescara, Italy
Posts: 808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I am not sure that logic and titles in the Benelux monarchies go well together. Thanks to those posters who share their knowledge of the matter in this thread.

The most logical thing would indeed be to create a secondary title for members that do not belong to the main line, princes of Coburg or even the entire Saxe-Coburg & Gotha. But the family started using the surname "de Belgique/van Belgie", so perhaps it is not likely they will return to their German origines at any point in the future.

The vagueness around the titles in Belgium perhaps means that no clear decision has been taken yet, other than that they will not be princes of Belgium. As we saw at Queen Paola's 80th birthday: the main line and the rest do not seem to be on speaking terms.

Are Amedeo's (future) child(ren) legally speaking even nobles? The Austria-Este title was not incorporated into the Belgian nobility AFAIK. This only happened for Archdukes Rudolf and Carl-Christian in 1978. Of course this may be a sensitive matter in the family.



Sounds like a prince Carnaval. Surely this option can not be the intention of the RF.
I totally agree. I think this change has been done this way to distance the main line from the cadet lines but allowing them to retain a certain "aura" of royalty in the titles of their descendants (some people care about titles). Probably changes will be done in the future to clarify the situation, when both Astrid's and Laurent's offspring will be related distantly enough.
Reply With Quote
  #214  
Old 02-06-2018, 09:29 AM
Marchesina's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Pescara, Italy
Posts: 808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
They are not being given the same titles. Only people born as children or grandchildren of the King or of the heir to the throne will be "princes/princesses of Belgium". The designation of other dynasts (previously descendants in male line of King Léopold I) as princes/princesses is not new. As I said, it was already implicit in the royal decrees of 1891 and 1991 where the word "prince" without territorial designation should be read, as I see it, not in the British sense of a member of the royal family, but rather as meaning anyone who is "of royal blood".

The novelty in the 2015 decree compared to the previous one from 1991 is that:
  1. The descendants of Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent beyond their children will no longer be "princes/princesses of Belgium" and, Anna Astrid's birth certificate notwithstanding, they should not be HRHs either. In that sense, they have been "demoted".
  2. However, the descendants in both paternal and maternal line of King Albert II who are not princes/princesses of Belgium are still implicitly princes/princesses in the French sense of a prince du sang, adjusted now for cognatic succession.
  3. The royal family, as I understand it, includes only the King and Queen, the princes and princesses of Belgium, and the former King and his wife upon abdication when applicable, but otherwise excludes other princes/princesses who are not "of Belgium".
As I said, it remains to be seen if "princes of the blood" who are not members of the royal family will use the title Prince/Princess as part of their legal name or not. I agree it will be weird if they call themselves Prince/Princess [Given Name] [Family Name].

Ok, this way it is clearer to me, but when I said "same title" I was referring to the princely title. I am aware of the distinction between "royal princes" and "princes of the blood" but, this way things can be extremely confusing and dangerous...we all know how press and medias can use false and confused infos to send bad messages to their audience. Plus, when it comes to the children from a female line who, traditionally, should carry exclusively their father's titles (unless being directly involved with the succession to the throne), it is rather nonsense to carry on with princely titles, as if P. Maria Laura marries a Mr. Smith and their daughter is a Princess Jane Smith and so forth since she would be a descendant of King Leopold.
Reply With Quote
  #215  
Old 02-06-2018, 09:29 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,816
They try to respect the standing situation, not to "rob" people from their titles but when they would limit the title prins (prinses) van België to children of a monarch and children of a heir, then the logic becomes visible:

The (grand)children of Léopold III
prinses Marie-Christine van België
prinses Marie-Esmeralda van België
Alexandra Moncada
Leopoldo Moncada

The children of Albert II

prins Philippe / Filip van België
prinses Astrid van België
prins Laurent van België

The children of Philippe / Filip
prinses Elisabeth van België
prins Gabriel van België
prins Emmanuel van België
prinses Leonore van België

The children of Astrid
Amedeo, aartshertog van Oostenrijk-Este
Anna-Astrid, aartshertogin van Oostenrijk-Este
Maria-Laura, aartshertogin van Oostenrijk-Este
Luisa-Maria, aartshertogin van Oostenrijk-Este
Joachim, aartshertog van Oostenrijk-Este
Laetitia-Maria, aartshertogin van Oostenrijk-Este

The children of Laurent
Louise, prinses van Saksen-Coburg en Gotha
Nicholas, prins van Saksen-Coburg en Gotha
Aymeric, prinses van Saksen-Coburg en Gotha
Reply With Quote
  #216  
Old 02-06-2018, 09:38 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
When they follow the assumed "prinses Anna-Astrid" example, is then his title prins Albert graaf d'Udekem d'Acoz? That is really a clash of titles and styles.

Princess Anna Astrid's title of Princess is not merely "assumed" - it is a fact.


- Le Soir quoted the exact words of her birth certificate: She was registered in the civil registry as Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este.
"A la rubrique « nom et prénoms », son acte de naissance porte en effet, comme nous avons pu le voir : « Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine) »."

"In the column 'surname and given names', her birth certificate uses, as a matter of fact, as we were able to see it: 'Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)'."

http://plus.lesoir.be/53935/article/...us-de-belgique


- Letters from the household of Princess Astrid (one in English is pictured in the photograph here) styled her granddaughter as Princess Anna Astrid.
"Their Royal Highnesses Princess Astrid, Prince Lorenz, Prince Amedeo and Princess Elisabetta thank you for the kind wishes you have sent on the occasion of the first birthday of our little sunshine Princess Anna Astrid.

Jan Matthysen
Ambassador (ret.)
Advisor to Princess Astrid"

- A palace spokesman confirmed that she would enjoy the title of princess.
"The royal family’s newest member will enjoy the title of princess – but, for dynastic reasons, she will not be a Princess of Belgium, the palace spokesman confirms to PEOPLE.

“It’s entirely possible that she may assume other titles in due course,” according to the spokesman, who confirms that the young family will live in Brussels."

Princess Anna Astrid: Brussels Prince Amedeo and Elisabetta Welcome Baby | PEOPLE.com

- The Palace communicated that she was "Princess Anna Astrid" to Le Carnet Mondain, the yearbook of noble and distinguished Belgian families.
"Par contre, la petite Anna Astrid n'a ni titre ni nom dans « Le carnet mondain », étant simplement renseigné comme « la princesse Anna Astrid » . Preuve de l'existence d'un royal problème ? Sachant, comme le précise le volumineux ouvrage mondain, que « les informations concernant la famille royale de belgique sont reproduites tellse qu'elles nous sont communiquées par le Palais »."

"In contrast, the small Anna Astrid has neither title nor surname in "Le carnet mondain", being filled out as "the princess Anna Astrid". Proof of the existence of a royal problem? Knowing the bulky work specifies that "information concerning the royal family of Belgium is reproduced from that which was communicated to us by the Palace"."

http://plus.lesoir.be/92478/article/...e-saxe-cobourg

- The Palace communicated the same information to Place Royale. (Place Royale uses the term "Officiel" to describe information given from the Palace.)
"OFFICIEL Le bébé du Prince et de la Princesse Amedeo de Belgique est la Princesse Anna Astrid @MonarchieBe"

"OFFICIAL The baby of Prince and Princess Amedeo of Belgium is Princess Anna Astrid @MonarchieBe

http://twitter.com/RTLPlaceRoyale/st...64995834245120
Reply With Quote
  #217  
Old 02-06-2018, 09:50 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,816
But it are all secondary sources. Even a municipal register can be wrongly filled (the average clerk will have no idea at all).

The primary source is a Royal Decree giving all descendants to Léopold I, even those not in direct lineage (like Anna-Astrid) the title of prins (prinses). Where is that Decree, signed by the King and contrasigned by the Government?

This because the (not foreseen?) consequence of all this is that the children of Maria-Laura, Luisa-Maria, Laetitia-Maria and Louise are all prins (prinses) as well, resulting in prins Marc Peeters, prinses Olivia Willems and prins Sem Goossens.
Reply With Quote
  #218  
Old 02-06-2018, 10:27 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,989


But where is the primary source for your claim that the official birth certificate was filled out wrongly and not corrected already by three months (!) after, when it was published?

According to which sources are the birth certificate, the letters from Princess Astrid's household, and the plentiful statements from the Palace constantly wrong, allegedly?

The decree of November 12, 2015, which was indeed signed by the King and contrasigned by the Government, is here.
Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
It does not say that all descendants of King Leopold I are princes and princesses, but it indeed means that at least a portion of them will be.

Moreover, I would not consider the birth certificate, the spokesmen for the Palace, or Princess Astrid's advisor to be secondary sources.
Reply With Quote
  #219  
Old 02-06-2018, 12:02 PM
maria-olivia's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 5,815
How difficult when all is easy for us Belgians to understand !
Reply With Quote
  #220  
Old 02-06-2018, 12:14 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
How difficult when all is easy for us Belgians to understand !
It is actually very confusing and difficult to understand, but maybe the Belgians have a superior intellect in this aspect.

__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
de belgique, prince of belgium, princess of belgium, surname, van belgië


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family Australian The Royal Family of Greece 424 08-27-2019 01:17 PM
Titles of the Royal Family curious Royal Family of Spain 203 07-08-2019 07:44 PM
Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles btsnyder British Royals 552 09-25-2016 03:01 PM
Belgian Abdication & Installation: Changes in Titles, Dotation and the Court leidi Royal Family of Belgium 30 07-23-2013 07:07 PM
Historical/Substantive titles within the Belgian Royal Family LadyLeana Belgian Royal History 14 02-21-2009 07:25 AM




Popular Tags
administrator aristocracy belgian royal belgian royal family chittagong countess of snowdon cover-up crown prince hussein's future wife crusades current events cypher danish royalty denmark duchess of cambridge duchess of sussex duke of sussex dutch royal family dutch royals family search french royalty future future wife of prince hussein germany house of bernadotte house of grimaldi house of orange-nassau israel jerusalem jumma kent kiko king philippe lithuania lithuanian palaces mbs meghan markle monaco royal monarchist monarchy mountbatten netflix nobel prize norway history official visit pakistan popularity potential areas prince charles prince daniel prince harry princely family of monaco princess benedikte pronunciation qe2 queen mathilde queen paola rania of jordan romanov family rown spanish royal startling new evidence state visit state visit to denmark sweden swedish history thailand trump united kingdom valois visit from sweden


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:10 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020
Jelsoft Enterprises
×