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  #181  
Old 01-14-2017, 05:13 AM
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Yes, Anna is no Princess of Belgium but definitely an Archduchess of Austria-Este and the whole rambam.
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  #182  
Old 01-14-2017, 07:49 AM
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Countessmeout: Please re-read the royal decree and the articles which I posted.

Titles of the Belgian Royal Family


Nowhere is there a statement that descendants who are not Princes(ses) of Belgium (Astrid's and Laurent's grandchildren) will have no Belgian royal title.

Articles 1-3 of the decree deal with the title Prince(ss) of Belgium.
Article 4 states: "The Princes and Princesses, in direct descent from His Majesty Leopold [I] of Saxe-Coburg, who are not mentioned in articles 1-3, carry after their first name, and their family name if they carry it, the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to."

Supposing that King Philippe decided the descendants "not mentioned in articles 1-3" (not Princes(ses) of Belgium) would have no Belgian royal title, why would article 4 be in the decree, and who would be "the Princes and Princesses" in article 4?


Additionally, Belgian media that talked to the Palace after the Royal Decree reported that (some of?) Astrid's and Laurent's grandchildren will be Princes(ses) even though they will not be Princes(ses) of Belgium.


If the spokesman who confirmed the title of Princess had been recognizing Anna Astrid's titles of pretense (Princess of Austria, Princess of Hungary, etc.), I don't think he would have added that "she may assume other titles in due course".


Quote:
Her title is
Her imperial and royal highness archduchess Anna astrid of Austria-este, princess of Modena.
The title on her birth certificate is HI&RH Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este.
Quote:
A la rubrique « nom et prénoms », son acte de naissance porte en effet, comme nous avons pu le voir : « Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d’Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine) ».
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  #183  
Old 05-07-2017, 11:59 AM
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The royal family is again called Saxe-Coburg: why is it soon the end of "Belgium"?

"Change of size for members of the Belgian royal family. They were once again called Saxe-Coburg, their former German title, which they were able to transmit to the descendants, who could no longer be called "de Belgique". Here are the details and explanations of our journalist and cameraman Thibaut Balthazar and Eric Poncelet.

England, Portugal, Bulgaria, Belgium ... The name Saxe-Coburg is rooted in many European royal families. This title, very widespread in the 19th century, was desecrated in the 20th century, victim of history. "The family of Coburg is a German family, and thus during the First World War Germany declares war on Coburgs who are placed on other thrones, such as Georges V in England or Albert I in Belgium, so it is inconceivable to have a German name when fighting against Germany, "explains Patrick Weber, a specialist in the royal family.

In 1921, the one who was nicknamed the King Chevalier decides therefore not to display the name Saxe-Cobourg, with German connotation. He will no longer be associated with his estate until today. Indeed, the discovery of the social book of 2017, all the descendants of King Albert I recovered the title, except the children of the princess, who take the name of their father, the Archduke of Austria-Este. "The very name Saxe-Coburg comes from one side of the Saxony family, a large German family that has spread throughout the empire and then the name of Coburg which is really a younger and collateral branch of the family of Saxony , Which has a direct reference to the territory on which it reigned, that is to say the city of Cobourg "adds Patrick Weber.

Behind this return of the noble title of Saxe-Coburg, hides the political will to limit the use of the title "prince of Belgium". Following a decree, only Princess Elisabeth will be able to pass on the title to her first child, the alternative for the other little children of King Philip and Prince Laurent will be to be called Saxe-Coburg."

La famille royale s'appelle à nouveau Saxe-Cobourg: pourquoi est-ce bientôt la fin des "de Belgique"? - RTL Info
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  #184  
Old 05-07-2017, 12:24 PM
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It is a good idea. Children of the King and the Heir are Prince (Princess) of Belgium. Other descendants in the male lineage are Prince (Princess) von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha.

This is similar with the Netherlands (graaf/gravin van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg), Luxembourg (prince/princesse de Nassau) and Denmark (greve/komtesse de Monpezat) for the ones not in the direct line of succession.

By doing so the title prince of Belgium (of the Netherlands, of Luxembourg, of Denmark) correspond with a close connection to the person of the Sovereign. So a good idea indeed.
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  #185  
Old 05-07-2017, 07:50 PM
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The article is about the yearbook Le Carnet Mondain. Last week Le Soir stated that in the current edition, all of the royal descendants of King Leopold I have gained the titles of "Duchess/Duke of Saxony, Prince/ss of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" - exempting Princess Astrid's descendants and the late King Albert I (the king who renounced the German titles in 1921).
Their wives and husbands do not carry these titles.
The daughter of Prince Amedeo of Belgium is styled "Princess Anna Astrid" with no surname or further titles.
Le Carnet Mondain states that this information was presented to them by the royal palace.
Quote:
Behind this return of the noble title of Saxe-Coburg, hides the political will to limit the use of the title "prince of Belgium". Following a decree, only Princess Elisabeth will be able to pass on the title to her first child, the alternative for the other little children of King Philip and Prince Laurent will be to be called Saxe-Coburg.
"Little children" (petits enfants) ought to be translated as "grandchildren", and given that the decree of November 12, 2015 remains untouched, only the grandchildren of Laurent will need the surname of Saxe-Coburg. In the present condition, the Princes and Princesses who are children or grandchildren of King Philippe or Crown Princess Elisabeth will be Princes and Princesses of Belgium (Article 1).
Quote:
Artikel 1. In de openbare en private akten die hen aanbelangen, voeren de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Koning, evenals de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Kroonprins of de Kroonprinses, de titel van Prins of Prinses van België volgend op hun voornaam en voor zover ze die voeren, hun familienaam en hun dynastieke titel, en voor de andere titels die hun rechtens hun ascendentie toekomen. Hun voornaam wordt voorafgegaan door het predicaat Zijne of Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid. Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
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  #186  
Old 05-07-2017, 07:52 PM
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Thanks for posting the additional information. A sensible move from the palace to make sure there will not be dozens of princes of Belgium in a few years. It seems that the grandchildren of Laurent will be princes of Saxe-Coburg.

All grandchildren of the king and queen will all be princes of Belgium under these new rules, if I understand the text correctly?
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  #187  
Old 05-07-2017, 08:05 PM
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^^^ Yes, they will be Princes(ses) of Belgium under the rules of the Royal Decree of November 12, 2015, which have not been revised. Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad
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  #188  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The article is about the yearbook Le Carnet Mondain. Last week Le Soir stated that in the current edition, all of the royal descendants of King Leopold I have gained the titles of "Duchess/Duke of Saxony, Prince/ss of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" - exempting Princess Astrid's descendants and the late King Albert I (the king who renounced the German titles in 1921).
Their wives and husbands do not carry these titles.
The daughter of Prince Amedeo of Belgium is styled "Princess Anna Astrid" with no surname or further titles.
Le Carnet Mondain states that this information was presented to them by the royal palace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Articles 1-3 of the decree [of 2015] deal with the title Prince(ss) of Belgium.
Article 4 states: "The Princes and Princesses, in direct descent from His Majesty Leopold [I] of Saxe-Coburg, who are not mentioned in articles 1-3, carry after their first name, and their family name if they carry it, the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to."
The spokesperson of the royal palace confirmed to Le Soir that the Saxony titles are covered by the expression "the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to", appearing in articles 1-4 of the royal decree of 2015.
The statement clarifies why the spouses did not obtain the titles, as the royal decree of 2015 applied only to descendants of Leopold I.

12 NOVEMBER 2015. - Koninklijk besluit betreffende de verlening van de titel van Prins of Prinses van België



Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
How would a prince of Belgium not be a prince
I was trying to say that the royal decree of 2015 does not expressly reserve the title Prince(ss) of Belgium for legitimate children and legitimate grandchildren, but it may imply that a child or grandchild who is not already a Prince(ss) cannot become a Prince(ss) of Belgium.

Quote:
Artikel 1. In de openbare en private akten die hen aanbelangen, voeren de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Koning, evenals de Prinsen en de Prinsessen, kinderen en kleinkinderen, geboren uit de nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van de Kroonprins of de Kroonprinses, de titel van Prins of Prinses van België [...]


The card which was signed by Princess Astrid's adviser Jan Matthysen on the occasion of Prince Amedeo and Lili Rosboch's first wedding anniversary said:
"His Royal Highness Prince Amedeo and Princess Elisabetta".

The card signed by Mr. Matthysen on the occasion of the couple's second wedding anniversary said:
"Their Royal Highnesses Prince and Princess Amedeo of Belgium".

koninklijkepost.punt.nl

"His" in the first card could be a mistake, or it could indicate that Elisabetta can be addressed as "HRH Princess Amedeo of Belgium" or as "Princess Elisabetta", but should not be addressed as "HRH Princess Elisabetta" or "Princess Elisabetta of Belgium".
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  #189  
Old 07-17-2017, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The spokesperson of the royal palace confirmed to Le Soir that the Saxony titles are covered by the expression "the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to", appearing in articles 1-4 of the royal decree of 2015.
The statement clarifies why the spouses did not obtain the titles, as the royal decree of 2015 applied only to descendants of Leopold I.

12 NOVEMBER 2015. - Koninklijk besluit betreffende de verlening van de titel van Prins of Prinses van België


U


I was trying to say that the royal decree of 2015 does not expressly reserve the title Prince(ss) of Belgium for legitimate children and legitimate grandchildren, but it may imply that a child or grandchild who is not already a Prince(ss) cannot become a Prince(ss) of Belgium.





The card which was signed by Princess Astrid's adviser Jan Matthysen on the occasion of Prince Amedeo and Lili Rosboch's first wedding anniversary said:
"His Royal Highness Prince Amedeo and Princess Elisabetta".

The card signed by Mr. Matthysen on the occasion of the couple's second wedding anniversary said:
"Their Royal Highnesses Prince and Princess Amedeo of Belgium".

koninklijkepost.punt.nl

"His" in the first card could be a mistake, or it could indicate that Elisabetta can be addressed as "HRH Princess Amedeo of Belgium" or as "Princess Elisabetta", but should not be addressed as "HRH Princess Elisabetta" or "Princess Elisabetta of Belgium".
The news about the 2017 edition of the Carnet is confusing. Are Gabriel, Emmanuel and Éleonore now using Saxe-Cobourg as family name, i.e before their titles of prince or princess of Belgium ? Or do they continue not to use a family name and are only using their German titles as family titles after their titles of prince/ princess of Belgium ? What about Elisabeth ?
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  #190  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
The spokesperson of the royal palace confirmed to Le Soir that the Saxony titles are covered by the expression "the titles which their ancestry gives them the right to", appearing in articles 1-4 of the royal decree of 2015.
The statement clarifies why the spouses did not obtain the titles, as the royal decree of 2015 applied only to descendants of Leopold I.
Personally, I don't think they have the right to use the Saxony titles based on their ancestry because those titles became extinct when Germany became a republic. I think they have the right though to use "prinz von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha" as a family name, as one would use nowadays in Germany.

Going back to my previous post, allow me to rephrase my question to make it clearer.

Albert , Laurent and Philippe, in all legal documents I have seen so far (royal decrees, marriage certificates, etc.) never used a family name. They are always referred to by their style (HM or HRH) followed by King/Prince, their given names (e.g. Philippe Léopold Louis Marie), their dynastic titles (e.g. King of the Belgians or Duke of Brabant), and then their title of Prince of Belgium. The 2015 royal decree says that a family name may be used between the given names and the dynastic titles, or , in the absence of the latter, between the given names and the title of Prince/Princess of Belgium, but only as long as the person bears a family name, as was the case of Mathilde, who is referred to in the royal decree who made her a Grand Cordon of the Order of Léopold as:

Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Mathilde Marie Christine Ghislaine comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique.

Are Philippe's younger children now using Saxe-Cobourg as a family name, as their mother uses comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz and as Le Soir is implying, or do they continue to go only by SAR le/la Prince/Princesse [prénom], Prince/Princesse de Belgique ?If the latter, do they now use their Saxony titles after Prince/Princesse de Belgique (in accordance with the terms of the 2015 decree), even though those titles no longer exist legally in Germany ?
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  #191  
Old 07-17-2017, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Personally, I don't think they have the right to use the Saxony titles based on their ancestry because those titles became extinct when Germany became a republic. I think they have the right though to use "prinz von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha" as a family name, as one would use nowadays in Germany.
I agree with you. I suspect that King Philippe intended to avert the sense that he awarded new titles and surnames to the members of his own family.

Quote:
Going back to my previous post, allow me to rephrase my question to make it clearer.

Albert , Laurent and Philippe, in all legal documents I have seen so far (royal decrees, marriage certificates, etc.) never used a family name. They are always referred to by their style (HM or HRH) followed by King/Prince, their given names (e.g. Philippe Léopold Louis Marie), their dynastic titles (e.g. King of the Belgians or Duke of Brabant), and then their title of Prince of Belgium. The 2015 royal decree says that a family name may be used between the given names and the dynastic titles, or , in the absence of the latter, between the given names and the title of Prince/Princess of Belgium, but only as long as the person bears a family name, as was the case of Mathilde, who is referred to in the royal decree who made her a Grand Cordon of the Order of Léopold as:

Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Mathilde Marie Christine Ghislaine comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique.

Are Philippe's younger children now using Saxe-Cobourg as a family name, as their mother uses comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz and as Le Soir is implying, or do they continue to go only by SAR le/la Prince/Princesse [prénom], Prince/Princesse de Belgique ?If the latter, do they now use their Saxony titles after Prince/Princesse de Belgique (in accordance with the terms of the 2015 decree), even though those titles no longer exist legally in Germany ?
I did not acquire the 2017 Carnet Mondain, but Le Soir's recapitulation did not imply a disparity between Elisabeth and her siblings on this subject. It simply says that in the 2017 edition, all of the members of the royal family, exempting Princess Astrid's descendants and the late King Albert I, have gained the titles of "Duchess/Duke of Saxony, Prince/ss of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha".

Per Belgian nobiliary law, there is a disconnect between surnames ("d'Udekem d'Acoz" or "of Austria-Este") and titles of nobility ("Countess" or "Archduke"). (Please see this post.)

However, formalities notwithstanding, the princes(ses) consort whose family names were in practice connected to a title have adjoined their family names to their titles in Royal Decrees:

"La Princesse Mathilde, Marie, Christine, Ghislaine, Comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique"
Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

"Le Prince Lorenz, Otto, Carl, Amedeus, Prince de Belgique, Archiduc d'Autriche-Este"
Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

When the family name was unconnected to a title, princesses consort adjoined their family names to their first names.

"La Princesse Claire Coombs, Princesse de Belgique"
Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

Based on this precedent, I suppose the long title of Princess Elisabeth and her siblings would be "Her Royal Highness Princess Elisabeth, Duchess of Brabant, Princess of Belgium, Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha", not "Her Royal Highness Princess Elisabeth of Saxe-Coburg, Duchess of Brabant (etc)", as the surname "of Saxe(-Coburg)(-Gotha)" is connected (I assume) to the titles Duchess and Princess.

Nevertheless, as you pointed out, the 2015 royal decree says that even children and grandchildren of King Albert II (Art. 2) and daughters(-in-law) of Princess Lilian (Art. 3.) may or may not use a family name disconnected from their titles and adjoined to their first name. I cannot comprehend the reasons for this.
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