Future of the Belgian monarchy

[Mbruno]

The court told Story that the new website is only for "the members of the Royal Family with an official function (and therefore also a grant)", but that King Albert II and Queen Paola's pages were preserved "out of respect for the former Head of State and his wife".

Koning Filip schrapt familieleden uit stamboom - Het Nieuwsblad

Prince Lorenz and Princess Claire do not receive money from the government, but on what does the court base its claim that they do not have an official function? What's more, biographies of Prince Gabriel, Prince Emmanuel, and Princess Eléonore were added to the website despite the fact that they will never receive a grant.

Lorenz has several public engagements throughout the year. Claire has been MIA for quite some time. Some commentators interpret Claire's absence from the public scene as retaliation by Laurent for the reduction in his stipend.

In any case, as long as Astrid and Laurent are on the website, I find it rude (and unnecessary) to remove the biographies of their consorts.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

On itself the website of the belgian monarchy is pretty complete. They mention that Princess Astrid is married to Archduke Lorenz and that Prince Laurent is married to Claire. One has to start somewhere with limiting the profiles on the official website.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

According to the Institute for Social and Political Opinion (Ispo) the support for the monarchy has reached an alltime low in Belgium.

Article

and

Article


Translation:

In 2014 only 40 to 45 % of the Dutch-speaking Belgians were an outspoken supporter of the monarchy. This according to a study by the Institute for Social and Political Opinion (Ispo), about which the newspaper De Standaard reported on November 15th 2016. For the first time the support is less than half of the Dutch-speaking Belgians (which form more than 60 % of the Belgian population).

The survey polled in 1990, 1999, 2002, 2003 and 2014 about the attitude of the Belgians towards the Royal House. During these 25 years the king has significantly declined in popularity. In 1990, under King Baudouin, the king received more than 60 % of the Dutch-speaking Belgians behind him, but subsequently under his successors the support dwindled steadily.

The continued decline is partly explained by secularization and the increase in the level of education, but also the evolution of political thinking plays a role. The more belgicist someone is (= in support of an unitary Belgian state and against a devolution into a confederation), the more royalist.

This also explains why the French-speaking Belgians made the reverse movement: the proportion of supporters of the monarchy increased from 59.6 % in 1990 to 70.1 % in 2003. In 2014, however, it dropped to 66.1 %.

In addition, amongst others, also the confidence in the king was polled. That onfidence was strikingly higher than in 2003 under King Albert II than in 2014 under King Philippe:
- In 2003 from the French-speaking Belgians 65 % had a lot of trust in the king, in 2014 this trust dropped to only 37 %;
- In 2003 from the Dutch-speaking Belgians 41 % had a lot of trust in the king, in 2014 this trust dropped to only 28 %.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The recent photos of a very unpleasant looking Prince Laurent will do the Royal House no favours!

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The recent photos of a very unpleasant looking Prince Laurent will do the Royal House no favours!

Well, to be fair, in 1990, after almost 4 decades of kingship, King Baudouin "only" got the support of 60 % of the Dutch-speaking and 59,6 % of the French-speaking Belgians. So even under King Baudouin it was not very high.

In 1950 a referendum was held about the return of the King from exile and both in French-speaking Belgium (58% against) and Brussels (52 % against) the royalists lost. It was only thanks to the support in the Dutch-speaking part (72 % for the King) that the monarchy survived because this counterbalanced the overall vote to a 58 % in favour of the King. Despite this result, King Leopold III abicated the kingship, to save the monarchy, realizing that he would remain a highly divisive person without "widespread popular support".

It was already not high in the 1950's and as this survey was done in 2014, I think Prince Laurent has little to do with it. It is really the loss of the feeling to be Belgian. No longer there is a strong, central and unitary Belgian state. Almost everything except the armed forces has been split in federal parts, so the institution "Belgium" is eroding from within. And logically also the crown on that institution: the monarchy.

 

[Lee-Z]

To be honest, i'd be interested to see what results a poll today would have, 2014 is 2 years ago when K.Philip was only king for a year and the stories about the abdication and K.Albert's extra-marital daughter where newer than they are now..

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

To be honest, i'd be interested to see what results a poll today would have, 2014 is 2 years ago when K.Philip was only king for a year and the stories about the abdication and K.Albert's extra-marital daughter where newer than they are now..

I assume that the initial enthusiasm will have ebbed away now. Like in the other monarchies with an new head of state. The honeymoon is over and the "newness" has gone.

 

[melina premiere]

Since the election of D Trump and the brexit, I has not trust the polls

I remember the big big crownd when King Baudoin was dead in 1993, I knew people who waited one entire day to pay tribute to the king lying in the royal palace,
Who would have think this in 1950 1951 when he became king , you forgot to say Duc and Pair that at that times after the second war, the communist party was everywhere and made a lot of trouble in the country, Belgium as france, a lot of Monarchies were no more present as Italia, Yougoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria.
The referendum for a republic in Luxembourg has failed this month, a lot of polls said that there were less people for a monarchy in this country

What did we see? nothing the people of Luxembourg wanted to keep their monarchy they did not' want a republic .People wants stability not troubles

 

[melina premiere]

Even if it is not perfect.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Yes, big crowds at the funeral of King Baudouin. Only a handful at the funeral of Queen Fabiola. Yesterday there were maybe 40/50 royalists cheering and well-wishing the royal family.

For the polls: they predicted that Hillary Clinton would get more support than Donald Trump. In that aspect their predictions became true: the counting is still continuing and she has more than 1 million voters in surplus over Trump but because of the Electoral College system Trump assembled more electors. The polls were right on the popular vote and wrong on the Electoral College.

For the Brexit the polls predicted a narrow victory for the Remain camp. It became a narrow victory for the Brexit camp. The difference was in the margin of error, so it was close.

For the Scottish Referendum the polls predicted a narrow victory for the pro-UK camp. The prediction became true.

So we can trust polls. With some care. It is not that they were waaaaaay off prediction in the named examples. From what I see, the reception of the monarchy is -at best- lukewarm in Belgium. But all three new Kings face a downward trend in approval of monarchy. They themselves are not unpopular. But asked about the form of state, more and more people opt for a democratically voted head of state. That is all.

The first monarchy to fall will be the Netherlands or Belgium. That is my prediction. Not because the King or Queen do it bad, but because the people want to vote themselves. Mark my words. And once one monarchy falls, others will follow. It will be a domino effect. Again: it has nothing to do with popular Mathilde or beloved Máxima. It has to do with the question: "Do you prefer a system with an elected head of state or do you prefer a system by hereditary succession?"

 

[Blog Real]

Since the election of D Trump and the brexit, I has not trust the polls

I remember the big big crownd when King Baudoin was dead in 1993, I knew people who waited one entire day to pay tribute to the king lying in the royal palace,
Who would have think this in 1950 1951 when he became king , you forgot to say Duc and Pair that at that times after the second war, the communist party was everywhere and made a lot of trouble in the country, Belgium as france, a lot of Monarchies were no more present as Italia, Yougoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria.
The referendum for a republic in Luxembourg has failed this month, a lot of polls said that there were less people for a monarchy in this country

What did we see? nothing the people of Luxembourg wanted to keep their monarchy they did not' want a republic .People wants stability not troubles

I agree.
People want stability and the monarchy back stability.
In general the monarchy is still popular in 10 European countries that are still monarchies.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I agree.
People want stability and the monarchy back stability.
In general the monarchy is still popular in 10 European countries that are still monarchies.

I live in a monarchy (Netherlands) and regularly work and stay in another monarchy (Belgium) and I can say the approval for the system is really fading. Again, this does not prevent individuals to enjoy personal popularity.

People can have a preference for a republic but admire a Mathilde or a Máxima for personal merits, charisma, character, etc. but that is not the same as support for the idea of a monarchy. I think all Dutch and Belgian fellow posters will confirm the downward approval of the institution (again: this does not prevent a personal popularity held by royals).

I will not be surprised at all to witness the downfall of the monarchy but it will all be done in a prudent and respectful manner. No guillotines or so.

 

[Katrianna]

I believe and agree with Duc et Pair that the Monarchies in Belgium and the Netherlands will fall in future years, I think Belgium's monarchy will be the first to fall, or be voted out. There's just too much division between the various ethnic factions and the country shows little sign of any possible unity. Of course, I'm from the US and I certainly can't brag about the US citizens being united as one especially in the last 8-10 yrs. The King and Queen are popular, but not strong enough to unite the population. When countries are in turmoil and especially bitterly divided, a strong uniting individual in power is needed and in Belgium, so far, that hasn't happened. It didn't happen when Albert II reigned and it's not happening with the current King. It's natural for citizens to look to another form of govt. when they want a solution, as has been written, the public desires a republic so they feel that they have a significant say in the Govt. and how the Govt. is run. They may feel that that is missing with a Monarchy. I don't know. I've lived in the US all my life and have felt, along with many, many other persons, that we, as voters, have no say in how our govt./country is run.
I remember reading this past summer or early fall that a poll in the Netherlands showed a significant drop in support for the Monarchy since Willem-Alexander came upon the Throne. I was rather surprised at the rather steep drop. I know that despite Maxima's popularity, the King has come under criticism for the disastrous luxury home that was to be built in Mozambique and then the "replacement" summer home in Greece. I have read on another Royal site that some Dutch members questioned the fact that Queen Maxima was traveling so much on behalf of her UN role and perhaps neglecting her role in the Netherlands. I don't have a clue if these examples contributed to the drop, but in the past generations the people put up with the "monarchy lifestyle" because of the belief that the Royals were born into the life. In 2016, the young people, especially don't believe in this reasoning and they want more of a say in how their taxes are spent.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is not really about the lifestyle of the royals. That is a side-path. The question is not: "What do you think about the lifestyle of the royals?".

The question is: "Do you prefer a system with an elected head of state or a system in which the head of state is designated by hereditary succession?" That is a completely different question. The answer on that system more and more tends to a republic. And it has all to do with the advancing of modern times, with a general better education level, with people becoming less attached to a nation, with secularization, desacralization, egalitarianism, etc.

Note that under the far more popular King Baudouin and under Queen Beatrix -which abdicated under a wave of appreciation and genuine goodwill- the support for the idea of the monarchy was already fading, and fading, despite the more ascetic lifestyles of the couples Baudouin & Fabiola and Beatrix & Claus.

 

[Marengo]

Quite honestly I have little faith in polls. The drop can also be caused by a change in how a question is framed.

However, I can go along with the analysis that has been made. Though in the 60-ties (and 70-ties) the very same thing was said about the monarchy and 50 years later it is still there. Opinions change, the distrust for the system that so many voters seem to have will change at one point too.

 

[Katrianna]

Quite honestly I have little faith in polls. The drop can also be caused by a change in how a question is framed.

However, I can go along with the analysis that has been made. Though in the 60-ties (and 70-ties) the very same thing was said about the monarchy and 50 years later it is still there. Opinions change, the distrust for the system that so many voters seem to have will change at one point too.

Sorry for a silly question, when you have written about distrust for the system by many voters, is that due to the hereditary succession factor in Monarchies?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Sorry for a silly question, when you have written about distrust for the system by many voters, is that due to the hereditary succession factor in Monarchies?

I would not call it distrust but discontentment. The Crown is the embodiment of the Belgian state. In the eyes of many citizens Belgium is (close to) a "failed state". When the attachment to the state is zero, logically this affects the ultimate symbol of that state: the King.

Note that in countries like in Sweden, in the eyes of many an absolute "model state" in great prosperity, also the monarchy sees a declining support despite great personal popularity of individual royals. So there the embodiment of that wealthy, liberal, free, modern and developed Sweden, seems not to "profit" from the great satisfaction of the Swedes.

It is precisely the question which is asked. Take a group of 1.000 people and ask them: "Do you want to elect your own head of state or do you prefer your head of state being designated by hereditary birthright?" It is a rational question and the rational answer is not so hard to guess.

 

[Muhler]

Such polls can very much be decided by the question.
The way you framed the question would lead many to answer yes to electing a head of state, simply out of principle, while really not being displeased with the current system.
And as such when standing in the ballot box and thinking: Would I really want to abolish the monarchy? - Nah.

Or alternatively seeing the politicians on the news, goofing again! And then think: "Would I want that enough-said be head of state? - Fat chance!

Opinion polls are very well illustrated in this short video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA

 

[Katrianna]

I can't speak for pollsters and respondents in the European Monarchies, but an observation was raised in the last several US elections in that people responding to poll questions are becoming reluctant to respond with their true feelings and/or intentions so will not be accurate/truthful when answering pollsters questions. Often times it depends on the organization conducting the poll, is it truly an independent polling organization or is the poll conducted by a group with a particular bend/interest in the issue.

 

[Marengo]

Sorry for a silly question, when you have written about distrust for the system by many voters, is that due to the hereditary succession factor in Monarchies?

I was unclear, sorry for that. But I meant distrust in the political system, insitutions, press etc. that we see in much of Europe and the US. The general distrust in the system also affects the faith people have in a monarchy. And sadly many voters are disengaged, disappointed and/or angry.

 

[Katrianna]

Ah, now I understand. I wasn't sure if your statement meant only monarchies or the entire system of institutions and no apologies needed at all.

 

[eya]

"The Place Royale Barometer, a survey of 1000 Belgians representative of the population, indicates that a large part of the population does not want a republican model. However, a small majority wanted the transition to a formal monarchy. "
"
58% shout "Long live the King" , for only 25% who claim "Long live the Republic". The rest have no opinion on the matter

La République de Belgique? Les Belges n'en veulent pas - RTL Info

https://translate.googleusercontent...6.aspx&usg=ALkJrhgWMUk1Vtg7QfKXjgpu264lRI1ZWQ

 

[Blog Real]

I am glad that the monarchy is popular in Belgium.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

This is fantastic. I especially want everyone who denigrated Philippe as lacking in charisma and not up to the job of being king(while he was Duc de Brabant) to read it.

The man and his elegant queen have not put a foot wrong since they assumed the Throne.

And best of all, he is grooming his lovely Heiress to be a wonderful Queen of the Belgians when it's her turn.?

 

[Lee-Z]

"The Place Royale Barometer, a survey of 1000 Belgians representative of the population, indicates that a large part of the population does not want a republican model. However, a small majority wanted the transition to a formal monarchy. "
"
58% shout "Long live the King" , for only 25% who claim "Long live the Republic". The rest have no opinion on the matter

La République de Belgique? Les Belges n'en veulent pas - RTL Info

https://translate.googleusercontent...6.aspx&usg=ALkJrhgWMUk1Vtg7QfKXjgpu264lRI1ZWQ

To show how media can pick a point of view on a story, the same survey is quoted in dutch gossip-mag Prive headlining "Quarter of belgians wants a republic"
'Kwart Belgen wil republiek'|Buitenland| Telegraaf.nl
google translated

 

[Mbruno]

To show how media can pick a point of view on a story, the same survey is quoted in dutch gossip-mag Prive headlining "Quarter of belgians wants a republic"
'Kwart Belgen wil republiek'|Buitenland| Telegraaf.nl
google translated

58 % must be probably one of the lowest levels of popular support for the monarchy among the non-republican European countries and we shouldn't overlook the fact that support for the republic rises to 30 % in the Flemish community specifically. Nonetheless, the Belgian monarchy still seems to be pretty secure. Most of the voters who say they don't have a opinion tend to stay home or to back the status quo in referenda, so, if it actually came to a referendum, the monarchy would probably get well over 60 % of the actual vote.

 

[maria-olivia]

It is so often said : "La Belgique a besoin de la Monarchie comme du pain ".
For the first time since 1935 we have a real Royal family King , Queen and non adult Children and they are doing well.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The biggest party of Belgium, the separatist NVA, has changed the strategy. From fundamentalists they have evolved into realists. Their dream of an independent Republic of Flanders remains in the core DNA of the party but now their strategy is to evolve to a full confederatiom of three states held together in a weaker and weaker federal structure because with every new Government, with every new legislature, with every state reform, the mighty NVA (needed to get a majority) will lay down demands. So bit by bit the federal state is parasited into a loose framework, the power shifting away from the federal structures.

But this is not for today or tomorrow, so the Belgian monarchy is now much safer than it was a couple of years ago. A relatively popular King, the scandals only at the periphery of the family (Boël and Laurent), the separatists focussing less on the King, yes the monarchy has found calm waters now.

 

[Frozen Royalist]

I get that people want to choose their own destinies an all but would be the point of breaking up Belgium at this point? I know that the Wallonians and the Flemish speak separate languages and have a few culture differences and all but it isn't as bad as Iraq or Yugoslavia right? I know the government isn't exactly the greatest in the world, what government is? But still the goals of the separatists in Belgium, along with the ones in Spain and the UK, are rather pointless at this point in my opinion.

The world is much more complicated along with the economy so I don't really see Wallonia and Flanders doing well on their own, Wallonia would have to become part of France and Flanders would have to become part of the Netherlands in my opinion. Plus come on, Flanders consists of more than 60% of the population, the majority of the population seeking independence from a minority is rather silly don't you think? I just wish the unionist parties could actually become more popular than the separatist parties.

It is nice that the Belgian Royal Family isn't in any threat of referendum at the moment but still blaming the monarchy is rather silly for the separatists in my opinion.

-Frozen Royalist

P.S. Excuse me while I comically hit my head against a nearby wall.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I only reported that both Queen Margrethe and Queen Beatrix pushed (without any veto anyway) their eldest sons to look out for a foreign partner. Their reason was that there needs to be a distance to the monarchy. A long relationship with a local dentist's daughter was a no-go for Queen Beatrix. Keep the in-laws away, keep classmates, keep former lovers away, keep the "tell-alls" away.

Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz indeed is a fellow Belgian, but someone who grew up in the Luxembourg Ardennes, on the secluded Château de Losange in Villers-la-Bonne-Eau is not exactly a girl from a milieu any usual Belgian relates to.

And see: Laurent married a foreigner, Astrid married a foreigner, Amedeo married a foreigner, Guillaume married a foreigner, Félix married a foreigner, leaving Louis with his Luxembourgian former partner which caused severe headaches at the Court. The (oldfashioned?) way of thinking is clear.

The last Belgian at the Court was Liliane Baels. No one was so hated as exactly that fellow Belgian. History is repeated. See Letizia.

Prince Laurent married a Belgian. Although Claire Coombs was born abroad, her family very soon returned to Belgium and that is where she spent the rest of her life. As her mother was a Belgian citizen, she also obtained Belgian nationality automatically once Belgian women won the right to transfer their citizenship to their children.

Prince Amedeo met Lili Rosboch while a student in London, so I wonder if it really was a reasoned choice to marry a foreigner.