Dotations of Members of the Belgian Royal Family under Discussion

[Marengo]

Parlament decided yesterday (18 april 2008) that of Phillipe and Mathilde's children only Princess Elisabeth will receive a dotation in the future, the others will have to provide an income themselves. Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent can keep there dotation for now, but a discussion about it will be reopened when the King turns 75 or if he dies before that age.

It seems that no senator actually looked at the 'work'that Astrid, Laurent and Claire do on behalf of Belgium, which is much larger than for example the two younger sons of the Queen of the Netherlands. Cutting allowances willcertainly stop such an involvment.

Senator Lambert also asked for the goverment to give an annual sheet with all the costs of the RF. He claims that this already exists in the Netherlands (which is not tru, but the government is working on it).

An article in Dutch here.

[TLLK]

Marengo, are these dotations to Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent meant to cover their expenses when they're on royal duty?

[Marengo]

According to newspaper 'Het Laatste Nieuws' the dotation of Prince Laurent will be even more under discussion as the senate started an ad hoc advice group who will take a look at the dotations of the royals. Apparently some dotations will be decreased while others will disappear completely.

And no surprise: the Flemish parties will be proposing this while it is expected that the Walloon parties will block it. Newspaper ' de Morgen' calls it a new dilemma like Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde, but that is over the top IMO, unless this issue will paralise Belgian politics for the next decade or so (which won' t happen of course).

Article in Dutch here.

And the original article in Dutch of 'De Morgen' here.

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What I don' t understand is why the dotation of Prince Laurent is ' in danger' while they do not mention the one of Princess Astrid (who is in the same position as her brother).

[norwegianne]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Parlament decided yesterday (18 april 2008) that of Phillipe and Mathilde's children only Princess Elisabeth will receive a dotation in the future, the others will have to provide an income themselves. Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent can keep there dotation for now, but a discussion about it will be reopened when the King turns 75 or if he dies before that age.

It seems to be in line with what's happening in the Norwegian royal house, only they're instituting it themselves - and therefore have a lot more power over the proceedings.

[crm2317]

So if Gabriel, Emmanuel and Eleonore do not receive an allowance from the state will they not take part in any royal duties? They will cease to be members of the royal family?

[Empress]

I have a feeling that this is a temporary fix for a government that is in trouble, and they are trying to look good, although I suspect that this move will not make them look good in the least.

I don't see the siblings of Elisabeth being cut out entirely, as she will need help with Royal duties when she gets older. Nope, I just don't see this one as having staying power!

[Stefan]

Perhaps it will also be like in the Netherlands where only the reinging Monachrc and his/her spouse, the former monarch and his/her spouse and the heir and his/her spouse will get an allowance by the State. But the cots of official duties of the other members of the Royal House are covered by the King/Queen.
I think it is fair in the cases of Gabriel, Emmanuel and Eleonore that they know they will not get an allowance from the State. But for Laurent and Astrid it ist not as they had where not prepared for it in the way of their job-choice etc.

[kelly9480]

This might be an instance in which Laurent's frequent bad headlines are causing Parliament to look for a way to ensure that future generations do not cause as many problems -- by forcing them to work.

[Marengo]

I agree, the most sensible thing for the future is to give the reigning couple and the direct heirs + spouses a dotation, and not the other children of the monrachs. I like how the dutch do it, just give the monarch a bit more and let he pay his relatives.
However I do not think that halfway the game you should change the rules. Astrid and Laurent planned their future, education etc. on the fact that they would be representing the RF and not have a normal job, so if they don' t get any money any more what should they do all of a sudden?

[Elspeth]

That's what they did in the UK when they shrank the Civil List a few years ago. Mostly it was a reaction against the younger royals, especially the Queen's younger children and their various spouses, but the Civil List was slashed so that long-term recipients like the Kents, Gloucesters, and Princess Alexandra, who had worked hard all their lives and, in the case of the Duke of Gloucester, given up a career to take on public duties, were all of a sudden cut loose. But the Queen is repaying them herself for continuing to take on public duties, so I assume there was some sort of agreement between her senior people and the Government that these junior royals wouldn't be left high and dry after all these years. The same is probably true of the Queen's younger children, who are continuing to perform public duties as they did while they were still on the Civil List. However, it does send a message to people like Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie that they might have to find other ways of supporting themselves when they get out of college. The chances are that they'll have a lot less involvement in royal life than the Queen's cousins did.

[marmi]

I think its an interesting situation - I can see why they want to cut back but it is very difficult. If you cut the donation to the longer serving royals, do you increase the Queen/King's to recognised their increased expenses? And surely in doing so you'd eliminate the benefit of making the original cut...

[Marengo]

Prime Minister Leterme told Paris Match that he wants to cut the civil list. The only members that will receive a dotation will be the King and the crownprince!

Article in Dutch here.

CD&V/NV-A are working on a proposal for parliament abou this. It will be difficult though, as many politicians see any change of the monarchy as an attempt to temper with Belgians unity and many will vote against such a change.

[johann]

So, Leterme finally starts to work and comes up with suggestions. Fine. Apparently there´s former royalty journalist Pol Vandendriessche behind it, who is now a member of the Belgian Senate and announced a “revolutionary bill” some time ago. Nothing wrong with limiting the dotations to the core family and more financial transparency is indeed desirable as all these hidden costs discussions cause some damage. That´s why Albert seems to support a reorganisation of the finances. And it is also more or less obvious since years that Astrid and Laurent will loose their dotation when Albert dies.
But in my opinion it´s rather unfair not to grant a payment to retired monarchs or widowed queens. A retired head of state deserves a pension. And since it´s expected that the spouses of the king and the crown prince stop their career to represent the country and also have to agree in division of property in case of divorce a dotation, how small it may be, is due too imo. So far Paola and Mathilde don´t receive a payment. Vandendriessche and co. eagerly refer to the way it´s done in The Netherlands, but to my best knowledge Juliana and Bernhard received a payment too till their death and they also conveniently forget about the dotation for Princess Maxima.
I´m not surprised that Vandendriessche is already pointing out how difficult it will be and that he starts playing the "the francophones are against it" card, that´s just the convenient CD&V/NVA way of doing politics lately.

[Al_bina]

http://www.theroyalforums.com/3017-p...%80%A6for-now/
Given this blog entry, I wonder whether Prince Laurent and Princess Astrid can earn a living on their own. Do they sit on the board of some company? What does Archduke Lorenz do besides making appearance alongside Princess Astrid?

[pamk]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

http://www.theroyalforums.com/3017-p...%80%A6for-now/
Given this blog entry, I wonder whether Prince Laurent and Princess Astrid can earn a living on their own. Do they sit on the board of some company? What does Archduke Lorenz do besides making appearance alongside Princess Astrid?

I have always thought that he worked in the banking sector of business -

[Al_bina]

Thanks for the information! According Wikipedia, Archduke Lorenz had a successful in the banking sector and "is currently a director of UCB, a global pharmaceutical manufacture". This means that the loss of the state dotations may not hit Princess Astrid's family hard.

[LadyLeana]

The Parliamentary commission which has been studying the system of the dotations has come to a compromise. In the future, only the reigning monarch, the presumed heir to the throne and the surviving spouse of a deceased monarch will receive dotations.
This means that when Philippe succeeds his father, only his eldest daughter Elisabeth - and her spouse whenever she marries - will receive a dotation from the Belgian government. The dotation may not be combined with commercial or other paying functions.

Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent, however, need not fear. They will continue to receive a dotation, despite their place in the succassion. This has been decided because the comission decided it would be rather unfair to just take it away from them, after they have received a dotation for so long. They are also not allowed to combine the dotation with commercial or other paying fuctions.

Article here (dutch)

[maria-olivia]

LadyLeana,
Concerning also the dotations I heard on TV that in the future , the expenses has to be published each year. Do you agree ?

[LadyLeana]

Yes, that's true, they also said that.

On the one hand, I think it's a good idea to make the costs of the Royal family transparent. After all, it happens in other countries as well, and the taxpayers and government have every right to know where the money goes.
On the other hand, once the dotation is given to the Princes, it is their money to spend as they like. And such "transparency" might lead to nitpicking, and witch hunts by anti-royalist parties. If they are going to have to account for every single cent, it could become ugly... Discussions type "Why did they have to give such an expesive gift to that head of state durting that state visit" and "why do they have to buy so many xxxx or yyyyy"... I'm not sure anyone is interested in that, but no doubt it will be turned around into something negative.

I guess we'll just have to see how this turns out.

I do like the solution for the dotation and the limit they put on it. Imagine the Belgian tax payer having to cough up the money to sustain all of the King's grandchildren...
Mostly I'm just happy for Laurent and Astrid, that their dotation isn't just taken away from them.

[Empress]

That's not really fair. Basically they take with one hand and give with another. If Elsabeth chose to go to school and take a paid profession, she would not receive any dotation since she would be paid by her job. I don't think that they should have the right to do that. She would probably continue to represent her country as crown princess until she became queen, but what if she wanted a job other than that? They are basically telling her that she can't...