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  #101  
Old 03-30-2019, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava View Post
When did King Philipe receive his dotation?
When his father Prince Albert became King, Prince Philippe was 33 at that moment. The new Civil List for the new King was then arranged and agreed by the Government.

Prince Albert received a dotation since adulthood. He has never worked outside the monarchy, he was always the heir of his childless brother King Baudouin.
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  #102  
Old 03-30-2019, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Sunnystar View Post
My thought is that as long as she is still in school/university, it's reasonable to not give her a dotation, and to keep her life as private as possible.
That argument was used too when Prince Willem-Alexander turned 18. But the Dutch Government said the dotation was a result of the constitutional position of the Heir who, as only citizen in the country, is not free in pursuing his own life and career. The fact that maybe the Heir would not yet have a fulltime royal role was no consideration: "then he could save for his undoubtedly costly future royal residence or royal wedding". And as a 18 year old Prince of Orange has a seat in the Council of State and gradually enrolls in a royal role, he needed a secretariate, staff, etc. Back then this was the way of thinking. But it depends very much on specific circumstances. Princess Elisabeth will have free housing in one of the residences of the Koninklijke Schenking / Donation Royale. Her Dutch colleague will have to pay for her own private residence, as this is not provided by the State.
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  #103  
Old 03-30-2019, 05:10 AM
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I think while Elisabeth is still in school it makes sense for her not to take the allowance. She would not be earning elsewhere anyway while studying and its always seemed to me the argument for giving an allowance is to stop the heir from having to work commercially.
Given the upcoming election and republican sentiment from some its a sensible decision - why cause a fuss when you don't have to.
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  #104  
Old 03-30-2019, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
When his father Prince Albert became King, Prince Philippe was 33 at that moment. The new Civil List for the new King was then arranged and agreed by the Government.

Prince Albert received a dotation since adulthood. He has never worked outside the monarchy, he was always the heir of his childless brother King Baudouin.
Thanks for that.
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  #105  
Old 03-30-2019, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
I think while Elisabeth is still in school it makes sense for her not to take the allowance. She would not be earning elsewhere anyway while studying and its always seemed to me the argument for giving an allowance is to stop the heir from having to work commercially.
Given the upcoming election and republican sentiment from some its a sensible decision - why cause a fuss when you don't have to.
I don't think so. As only Belgian citizen Elisabeth is not free to pursue her own life and career. The dotation is linked to purely that position as constitutional successor to the King. It was wiser when Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent, waaaaay down in the succession, would end their dotations and leave the arrangement for the Heir intact.

Now Philippe looks weak, not giving in to decades-long complaints about the "absurd" dotations for his siblings, but he has no difficulty in using his daughter in a populist move. With this he has set a dangerous precedent. No longer the pure constitutional position of the succesor results in a dotation but "when he/she is ready". With this an objective legal arrangement had been swapped for a subjective personal consideration, depending on the mood of the day. Very unwise.
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  #106  
Old 03-30-2019, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The King has requested that his daughter, Princess Elisabeth, will not receive an annual dotation (€ 925.000,--). The Princess turns 18 this year but enjoys studies abroad. The King wants to shield his daughter away from public life, as long as possible. Such a dotation brings pressure, which the King wants to avoid.

With acting so, he takes the wind out of the sails of the anti-monarchist parties (there are General Elections coming). But he also sets a precedent: will future Belgian monarchs feel to do the same when the heir turns 18? Will foreign colleagues now feel pressure to avoid a dotation as well, for an example the Princess of Orange? ("Look at the Belgians!").

Dutch: Voorlopig geen dotatie voor kroonprinses Elisabeth (Brussel) - De Standaard Mobile

French: https://www.dhnet.be/actu/belgique/p...ad58747733ac48
What is the purpose of a dotation ? Basically to pay for the recipient's household (i.e. permanent staff) and for the discharging of his/her official duties on behalf of the Crown. lisabeth will indeed be eligible to ascend the throne when she is 18, but I suppose everybody agrees she is unlikely to become a working royal while she is still in school. There is no point then in giving her a dotation for the purposes I listed above, and much less a dotation at the extragavant amounts for example that have been announced for the Princess of Orange , who will be pretty much in the same situation as the Duchess of Brabant when she turns 18.


My point is that, although eighteen is still the majority age as far as succession to the throne is concerned, the reality is that young people enter into full-time jobs much later nowadays in western countries, as they go to university for four or five years and then may even continue in school for another three years or so to obtain an advanced research degree. Likewise, many people are now much older when they marry (in their late 20s or early 30s) than it used to be the case in the past . So, in a way, although the law doesn't reflect it yet, "adulthood" has been in practice delayed (from a certain point view) for most middle-class (or higher) young people in wealthy countries. I think King Philippe's decision only reflects that changing reality and avoids unnecessary burdens on the taxpayers for which there is no strong rationale
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  #107  
Old 03-30-2019, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The King has requested that his daughter, Princess Elisabeth, will not receive an annual dotation ( 925.000,--). The Princess turns 18 this year but enjoys studies abroad. The King wants to shield his daughter away from public life, as long as possible. Such a dotation brings pressure, which the King wants to avoid.

With acting so, he takes the wind out of the sails of the anti-monarchist parties (there are General Elections coming). But he also sets a precedent: will future Belgian monarchs feel to do the same when the heir turns 18? Will foreign colleagues now feel pressure to avoid a dotation as well, for an example the Princess of Orange? ("Look at the Belgians!").

Dutch: Voorlopig geen dotatie voor kroonprinses Elisabeth (Brussel) - De Standaard Mobile

French: https://www.dhnet.be/actu/belgique/p...ad58747733ac48
Thank you, Duc!

I concur with tommy100. One's position in the line of succession is not inevitably linked to the need for a dotation; Princess Elisabeth has had precedence in the line of succession since infancy, but it is her aunt and uncle who have "worked for the Firm" for decades. A criterion limiting dotations to those in public life seems sufficiently objective.

Will implementing King Philippe's wishes require legislation?
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  #108  
Old 03-30-2019, 07:12 AM
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A sensible decision though I guess that by the time she is ready for official functions - let's say at age 26 - the same question will pop up again: why does somebody in his/her twenties need one million euros a year.

I am sure that the decision will be noted in The Hague, both by politicians and the court. I do not expect they will change the present arrangement though.
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  #109  
Old 03-30-2019, 07:25 AM
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IMO the allowance is to pay for official duties, a household and an element of personal allowance. Whilst Elisabeth is in full time education its clear she won't need an office of her own and won't undertake full time duties. The King & Queen clearly feel once she receives the allowance the media will see Elisabeth as "fair game" as she will be in receipt of public funding, so why place that pressure upon your own child when the money is not required.
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  #110  
Old 03-30-2019, 10:24 AM
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This decision seems only logical to me considering Elisabeth still has more than a year of high school in Wales.
Personally, I would expect a royal who gets state funds to be doing regular engagements, which obviously a high school student living abroad isn’t going to do.
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  #111  
Old 03-30-2019, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thank you, Duc!

I concur with tommy100. One's position in the line of succession is not inevitably linked to the need for a dotation; Princess Elisabeth has had precedence in the line of succession since infancy, but it is her aunt and uncle who have "worked for the Firm" for decades. A criterion limiting dotations to those in public life seems sufficiently objective.

Will implementing King Philippe's wishes require legislation?
The problem is whether 'public life' is truly objective. By that criterion Laurent's dotation should vary considerably over the years as there are times when he decides not to carry out public duties (or only very limitedly for his own organizations) because he feels unfairly treated.

And I don't think anyone is claiming that it is only about position in line of succession. The former king isn't and still receives a considerable dotation. It is also about other factors; such as reaching majority of age - and developments in thoughts. Previously all children of the king were considered to be in need of a dotation, now it is only the monarch, his heir and predecessor (or widow).

It's interesting how so many people (not necessarily you) tend to focus on the position in the line of succession and not take relation to monarch into account. I think it is far more reasonable for a brother of a king and son of a previous king (Laurent in this case; 12th) to receive a dotation than his great-niece (Anna-Astrid; 7th) or even his nephew (Amedeo for example; 6th), still that great-niece and nephew are higher in line of succession.
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  #112  
Old 03-30-2019, 02:15 PM
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Imagine that in the UK Prince George is the Heir, the Duke of Cornwall, and does NOT automatically get the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall (which provides the income for the Heir) because " he is just 19 and studying". Then a legal arrangement is shoven aside for the whims of the Daily Mail: "Is George ready to receive the fortune from the Duchy of Cornwall?"

This is what happens here. The objective legal arrangement that the Heir has reached the age that he/she can assume the kingship and is provided with a legal dotation to underline his/her position as future head of state, is now shoven aside for a subjective consideration. When something is no longer an objective legal arrangement, Pandora's Box is opened. For an example: is 23 years then old enough? Or 25? And should it be 925.000? Why not 100.000? She is just 23! An objective arrangement has become a public consideration.

A most unwise populistic move. It will boomerang back in the royal face. It is not for nothing in the law. Exactly to avoid the whims of the day or the political colours of a Cabinet in a couple of years. What a pennywise and poundfoolish move. If the King wanted to take the wind out of the sails, he had to take away the dotations of his siblings but NEVER undermine the independent financial position of the Duchess of Brabant.

But okay. Go on Philippe. In that impossible country with seven Governments. Use your daughter's dotation as a populist pawn. Pffff. I have given up.
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  #113  
Old 03-31-2019, 06:06 AM
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There is a difference between the Dutch and Belgian situations, I learned today. In both situations it is arranged by law that the successor, when he/she reaches the age of consent, receives an individual dotation.

But where in the Dutch situation this is an automatism because it is the law, in Belgium the Government still has to propose first and then promulgate the consented dotation, making it part of a political debate. As long as there is no proposal from the Belgian Government, there is no dotation. This causes that at one side King Philippe can request: wait with a proposal. But this can also cause that a not so monarchist-minded Government can slow-down or lower down.

In the Dutch situation the incomes are vested in the Constitution (!), worked out in the Act financial statute of the Royal House 1972 and indexed with the general pay rise for civil servants. There the issue of the incomes is "detonated" by making it a de-politic legal automatism
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  #114  
Old 03-31-2019, 06:13 AM
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which just confirmes my prejudice that the Oranje-family is very clever with money (government money and particularly their own) in having managed to get this arranged this way
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  #115  
Old 03-31-2019, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Imagine that in the UK Prince George is the Heir, the Duke of Cornwall, and does NOT automatically get the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall (which provides the income for the Heir) because " he is just 19 and studying". Then a legal arrangement is shoven aside for the whims of the Daily Mail: "Is George ready to receive the fortune from the Duchy of Cornwall?"

I am afraid you might be comparing apples and oranges. The Duchy of Cornwall is a private estate. It is not taxpayer money as the dotation that Elisabeth or Catharina Amalia will get. If the King has set up a trust fund for his daughter which she can access when she turns 18, by all means she is entitled to do it. A completely different situation is to ask the people to pay for permanent staff or expensive jewelry/gala dresses for a girl who is still in school and is not performing official duties on behalf of the Crown.



There will always be costs of course for maintenance, security, transportation, etc. of royal children, but they can be paid for using the King's own dotation as part of it is already calculated to provide for family expenses.
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  #116  
Old 03-31-2019, 08:12 AM
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The difference in both the UK and Dutch systems vs the Belgian one is that the heir automatically gets the allowance/income when they turn 18 whereas in the Belgian system the government still has to grant the allowance.

Technically in all cases the monarchies are doing the same - nothing. The difference is in the Dutch and UK cases that nothing means getting the allowance and in the Belgian it means not.
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  #117  
Old 03-31-2019, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I am afraid you might be comparing apples and oranges. The Duchy of Cornwall is a private estate. It is not taxpayer money as the dotation that Elisabeth or Catharina Amalia will get. If the King has set up a trust fund for his daughter which she can access when she turns 18, by all means she is entitled to do it. A completely different situation is to ask the people to pay for permanent staff or expensive jewelry/gala dresses for a girl who is still in school and is not performing official duties on behalf of the Crown.



There will always be costs of course for maintenance, security, transportation, etc. of royal children, but they can be paid for using the King's own dotation as part of it is already calculated to provide for family expenses.
Ultimately it is also taxpayers' money because the revenues from the Crown Estates, the Duchy of Cornwall and the Duchy of Lancaster do not flow into the thirsty purse of the Chancellor but to the not-so-thirsty purses of the Queen and the Prince of Wales. It is just an arrangement to disguise that they are paid out of State properties. It should be noted that throughout the centuries there was little - if any- distinction between monarch and Government. These lands didn't belong to the various kings and dukes in any personal capacity, they belonged to the titles they held.

That the Prince of Wales effectively gets taxpayers' money is proven by the fact that if he was pre-deceased by Princes William or Harry (or if neither of them had been male), the Duchy would be part of the Crown Estate until Prince George became king and had a son. The revenues would be passed to the government, not to a member of the Royal Family at all (!).
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