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  #61  
Old 07-26-2013, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CSENYC View Post
Republican governments do cost plenty, but at least only the President and Vice President are paid salaries. The rest of their families don't get a salary, although I believe that the First Lady and Second Lady (the spouses of the President and Vice President) have staffs.

(I have no idea why the spouse of the Vice President needs a staff.)

In short, if only the person holding the office can get a salary in the US, I don't think that it's unreasonable for only the King to get a salary, but not the rest of the family.
In a republic the children and siblings of the President and Vice President are not expected to undertake official engagements and represent the nation in any way. In a monarchy the children and siblings of the monarch are expected to undertake official engagements and represent the nation, and it is a lifetime committment, which is why state allowances are applicable,
In a republic such as the US you give salaries to the President and Vice President while in office, as well as allowances for their wives offices. After they retire you continue to pay pensions to the former Presidents and Vice Presidents, as well as payng for their staff, office expenses and security, Right now you are paying for 4 living ex Presidents and I don't know how many former VPs but the costs are considerable. I remember CNN mentioning that the costs for Clinton runs into the millions. I am not begrudging them their expenses after serving the nation, just pointing out that there are costs in republic that people do not consider when comparing to the costs of maintaining a working royal family.
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  #62  
Old 07-26-2013, 06:58 PM
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I apologise in advance - but Prince Lauriant seems to have blotted his copybook. Can someone explain in simple terms what he has done - or have I misunderstood. Big thank you as I am being lazy in not going back over many posts.
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  #63  
Old 07-26-2013, 08:44 PM
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Without going in too much detail:

Laurent was involved in a corruption scandal that reached court when it was said money from the Royal Navy was used to renovate his holiday home. It was reported that his father (or Court staff) effecitvely banned Laurent from the Royal court for several months after this

He visited the Congo without prior permission which was controversial given Belgium's past there

He is said to enjoy playing the 'I'm royal' card for example demanding free upgrades on Belgian airlines and harrasing airline staff when they question this

He is known to be on good terms with the woman who claims to be the King's illegitate daughter

I've read reports that he is not all that bright, once apparently, needing to be told the difference from the UN and US

He led, according to some reports, a play boy prince style life when he was young

Overall not a few big scandals really but lots and lots of little ones all of the time
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  #64  
Old 07-27-2013, 02:51 AM
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I think the only reason why Laurent hasn't been cut off (economically speaking) from the family is the children.

If I was Philippe I'd make sure Claire was the one managing their allowance, Laurent isn't the most trustworthy guy in the world.

Also, while Albert was quite wild in his youth (and so was Paola) he never ever betrayed Baudouin's trust in his royal duties, he was always staunchly loyal to his brother, that's something I don't see Laurent doing even if Philippe has defended him in public ("he's my brother and will always be my brother first and foremost").

It's better to find him something to do before he starts compromising the royal house again.
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  #65  
Old 07-27-2013, 05:49 AM
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Now the Government wants more control about the Royals except of course for King Philippe.
It concerns namely their foreign travels , who they will met there , about their air planes costs , foundations etc.
It will have a direct repercussion on their dotations and Prince Laurent is not free anymore as before.
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  #66  
Old 11-28-2014, 04:50 PM
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The costs of the RF has decreased with 2.7 million euros:

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The institution of monarchy in Belgium will cost the Belgian taxpayer 36 million euros next year. The largest share of this amount is spent on policing and securing the safety of our royal family, the Saxe-Coburg and Gothas. 2.7 million euros less is being spent on the institution of monarchy next year.
Complete article here.

I suppose that the reduction of Fabiolas allowance does have benefits
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  #67  
Old 12-04-2014, 08:22 AM
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According to a professor from ghent, the Belgian RF is the3rd most expensive of Europe, 1 million euros cheaper than the Dutch.

Koningshuis derde duurste in Europa - Het Nieuwsblad

The article already claims that the Spanish and Lux. budgets are less transparent.... but somehow they forget to mention that this makes such lists useless as it is comparing apples to oranges. It is impossible that the Belgian monarchy is more expensive than the Spanish one.
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  #68  
Old 12-04-2014, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
According to a professor from ghent, the Belgian RF is the3rd most expensive of Europe, 1 million euros cheaper than the Dutch.

Koningshuis derde duurste in Europa - Het Nieuwsblad

The article already claims that the Spanish and Lux. budgets are less transparent.... but somehow they forget to mention that this makes such lists useless as it is comparing apples to oranges. It is impossible that the Belgian monarchy is more expensive than the Spanish one.
Why do you say "it is impossible" ? Most lists I've seen put the Spanish monarchy as one of the least expensive in Europe.
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  #69  
Old 12-04-2014, 03:40 PM
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The Spanish monarchy can not afford to be expensive. Spain is broke.
I am not sure about economic situation in Belgium. If the royal allowances start putting a strain on the Belgian budget, lawmakers will not hesitate to reduce them.
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  #70  
Old 12-04-2014, 07:44 PM
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These studies are only reasonable if you take the same facts and figures as a basis for comparison. And this is not possible since some monarchies are way more transparent than others. And usually the more transparent monarchies are "awarded" with the most expensive label than.
The Belgian numbers for ex include the costs for security [15 m €] as well as the maintenance of the state owned castles in Brussels and Laken. These components aren’t part of the Dutch budget though. So the comparison between the Dutch and the Belgian numbers is already inadequate. Yet the Belgian media claims that the Belgian RF costs 39 m € and the Dutch 40 m€. They don’t bother the public with details and neither does Prof. Matthijs when he presents his short statements in front of the cameras.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Why do you say "it is impossible" ? Most lists I've seen put the Spanish monarchy as one of the least expensive in Europe.
IIRC these lists don’t include security costs for Spain. I have no idea how it works there but I guess their security costs are at least as high as the Belgian ones, if not much higher. Not their fault and one can argue if security costs should be included at all.
One of Matthijs’ studies from 2012 cites Spanish newspapers reports and according to those the real costs for the Spanish monarchy are around 60 or 70 million Euros. No idea how accurate these reports are though.
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  #71  
Old 02-20-2016, 05:06 AM
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There is some nagging about costs, see: Much Ado About ... Travel Costs | The Royal Forums
What a bargain the Belgians have. 143.000 Euro? A look over the borders to their northern neighbours, the Netherlands, learns that in their State Budget, for "The King", is reserved 900.000 Euro for flying costs. See info ("luchtvaartuigen").

Really, cheaper than the Belgians is impossible, or the King should fly EasyJet.
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  #72  
Old 02-20-2016, 05:22 AM
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Why nag about the costs, if the King can not fly on normal flights then there is no choice but to use military flights. Therefore, if anything, shouldn't the argument be about whether the King flies on normal flights or not?
However, I suspect no politician wants to be the one to say the King should compromise security by flying on normal flights, so instead they will moan about the costs until the King himself decides to use normal flights.
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  #73  
Old 02-20-2016, 05:28 AM
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Even if the King grew wings, they would complain about the cost of keeping his feathers clean.
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  #74  
Old 02-20-2016, 05:43 AM
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It is just the favourite hobby of some Belgian politicians. I find it a bit pauvre to see His Majesty The King of the Belgians leaving a grey Hercules or something from the Belgian Airforce. Even the Prince of tiny little Monaco has his own aeroplane: picture.
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  #75  
Old 02-20-2016, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Why do you say "it is impossible" ? Most lists I've seen put the Spanish monarchy as one of the least expensive in Europe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
The Spanish monarchy can not afford to be expensive. Spain is broke.
I am not sure about economic situation in Belgium. If the royal allowances start putting a strain on the Belgian budget, lawmakers will not hesitate to reduce them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mara* View Post
These studies are only reasonable if you take the same facts and figures as a basis for comparison. And this is not possible since some monarchies are way more transparent than others. And usually the more transparent monarchies are "awarded" with the most expensive label than.
The Belgian numbers for ex include the costs for security [15 m €] as well as the maintenance of the state owned castles in Brussels and Laken. These components aren’t part of the Dutch budget though. So the comparison between the Dutch and the Belgian numbers is already inadequate. Yet the Belgian media claims that the Belgian RF costs 39 m € and the Dutch 40 m€. They don’t bother the public with details and neither does Prof. Matthijs when he presents his short statements in front of the cameras.



IIRC these lists don’t include security costs for Spain. I have no idea how it works there but I guess their security costs are at least as high as the Belgian ones, if not much higher. Not their fault and one can argue if security costs should be included at all.
One of Matthijs’ studies from 2012 cites Spanish newspapers reports and according to those the real costs for the Spanish monarchy are around 60 or 70 million Euros. No idea how accurate these reports are though.
Spain's monarchy has always been VERY shady in economic terms, Juan Carlos came to the country virtually broke and now has a great fortune, no one knows how much or where did it come from, also there is never a true budget shown from the Royal House, you don't know how much goes to whom or where, they don't include the money paid to maintain the castles & royal sites (most of which can't be visited and are only open to the RF), plus the press doesn't talk about any of it, unlike the Belgian press, the Spanish media tends to self-censor when it comes to the RF, no bad words towards the Royal couple, just endless praise, legacy from Franco's NO-DO
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  #76  
Old 02-20-2016, 04:02 PM
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Spain is by no means the most inexpensive monarchy. Look to the Royal Palace in the city of Madrid, to the Pardo Palace, the site of La Zarzuela, the Palace of El Escorial, look to the grand display of military splendour on several days, look to the massive motorcades and escortes and the continue personal protecion, look to the flying in that big and wide country. This "cheap" budget is only possible because they are hiding all possible posts on diverse budgets. The costs for State Visits will be in the Budget for Foreign Affairs, for the military display it will be in the Budget for Defense, for the transportation it will be in the Transport & Infrastructure Department, etc. etc.

It was exactly like that in almost all monarchies. Some monarchies, like Denmark and the Netherlands have now assembled all costs made for the functioning of the monarchy, so gaining a more complete, transparant and accountable overview. Yes, then suddenly the one monarchy is "the most expensive" and the other "the most inexpensive" (Spain) but a simple look to the residences, the infrastructure, the staffing, the transportation, the security, the offices, the archives, etc. will learn that it is impossible that Spain is so much cheaper than other monarchies. Comparing royal budgets only makes sense when the budgets contain the same posts.
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  #77  
Old 02-20-2016, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Spain is by no means the most inexpensive monarchy. Look to the Royal Palace in the city of Madrid, to the Pardo Palace, the site of La Zarzuela, the Palace of El Escorial, look to the grand display of military splendour on several days, look to the massive motorcades and escortes and the continue personal protecion, look to the flying in that big and wide country. This "cheap" budget is only possible because they are hiding all possible posts on diverse budgets. The costs for State Visits will be in the Budget for Foreign Affairs, for the military display it will be in the Budget for Defense, for the transportation it will be in the Transport & Infrastructure Department, etc. etc.

It was exactly like that in almost all monarchies. Some monarchies, like Denmark and the Netherlands have now assembled all costs made for the functioning of the monarchy, so gaining a more complete, transparant and accountable overview. Yes, then suddenly the one monarchy is "the most expensive" and the other "the most inexpensive" (Spain) but a simple look to the residences, the infrastructure, the staffing, the transportation, the security, the offices, the archives, etc. will learn that it is impossible that Spain is so much cheaper than other monarchies. Comparing royal budgets only makes sense when the budgets contain the same posts.
Plus Marivent, which can't be visited and is only used like a week per year because Felipe and Letizia don't stay in Mallorca the entire holidays like JC & Sofia used to.

All the money used to keep that palace running, security, etc.
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  #78  
Old 02-21-2016, 05:47 AM
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Plus Marivent, which can't be visited and is only used like a week per year because Felipe and Letizia don't stay in Mallorca the entire holidays like JC & Sofia used to.

All the money used to keep that palace running, security, etc.
But almost all other Palaces can be visited. The Royal pace in Madrid is open most of the year. Only 1 day a week it is closed regulary. And even El Pardo can be visited. Also La Granja in Sand Ildenfoso, the Palace in Aranjuez, the Escorial etc.
That is more then the belgian palaces whre only the Royal Palace in Brussels can be visited during the Summer months and the Greenhouses in Laeken during some weeks in Spring but never the Palace itself.
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  #79  
Old 02-21-2016, 02:29 PM
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But almost all other Palaces can be visited. The Royal pace in Madrid is open most of the year. Only 1 day a week it is closed regulary. And even El Pardo can be visited. Also La Granja in Sand Ildenfoso, the Palace in Aranjuez, the Escorial etc.
That is more then the belgian palaces whre only the Royal Palace in Brussels can be visited during the Summer months and the Greenhouses in Laeken during some weeks in Spring but never the Palace itself.
You can visit Laeken, unlike Zarzuela for example.

La Granja and El Escorial virtually don't count because the royals haven't stayed there in years, they are managed and paid for Patrimonio Nacional.

Although that is really the least of the problems, in Spain no one truly knows how much money goes towards the Royal Family, not even in the Budget shown at the BOE (Boletin Oficial del Estado) it is said exactly how much, what goes where, the Casa Real never explains their expenditure and the media doesn't ask, since there's huge self-censorship about the King & Queen, only praising articles all year long, you'll never see critical press like the Belgian one in Spain, not even at independentist communities like Euskadi or Catalunya.
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  #80  
Old 02-21-2016, 02:34 PM
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Lets face it, it would be much better for us and nosy journalists if all the costs of each RF were published in one place. However sadly nearly every RF has at least one element of their costs which are paid for from another department and thus not published. The Belgian RF come the closest to being most open IMO, especially if they publish security costs.
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