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  #41  
Old 07-29-2019, 04:19 PM
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Thank you everyone for the explanation!
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  #42  
Old 08-10-2019, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post

Princesses Astrid, Maria Laura, Luisa Maria, Laetitia Maria, Louise, Marie-Christine, and Esmeralda will use the same coat of arms.
Princess Astrids should be different as she's married to the Archduke of Austria-Este I don't know why the Belgian Royal Court does not differentiate between the Princesses.
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  #43  
Old 08-10-2019, 07:23 AM
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Princess Marie Christine never came back to Belgium, was banned ?, wanted no souvenir of her parents but only money , money. I wonder if the may use her Coat of Arms.
I wonder which coat of arms has Princess léa , widow of Prince Alexander ?
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  #44  
Old 08-10-2019, 07:39 AM
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The coat of arms of the late Princess Joséphine Charlotte, Grand Duchess consort of Luxembourg combined the coats of Arms of a Belgian Princess with those of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg.

Coat of arms of HRH Princess Joséphine Charlotte, Grand Duchess consort of Luxembourg


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  #45  
Old 08-10-2019, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


Princess Eléonore's new coat of arms also includes other new elements (supporters in the form of lions, a canopy, and so on). It can be viewed on page 16 of this link and is described in article 4 of the decree on page 8.

https://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/mo...9_2.pdf#Page16

Princesses Astrid, Maria Laura, Luisa Maria, Laetitia Maria, Louise, Marie-Christine, and Esmeralda will use the same coat of arms.
Wouldn’t the arms without the supporters and canopy be her “ small arms” ? They should include the princely crown though.

Wikipedia had updated the arms of the members of the Belgian RF including Princess Éleonore, see

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prin...ore_of_Belgium
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  #46  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Princess Marie Christine never came back to Belgium, was banned ?, wanted no souvenir of her parents but only money , money. I wonder if the may use her Coat of Arms.
I wonder which coat of arms has Princess léa , widow of Prince Alexander ?
According to Wikipedia ,Princess Léa of Belgium uses the general Princess of Belgium coat of arms same as the Kings younger daughter, sister,sister inlaw and nieces,its a bit chaotic .

Coat of arms of a Princess of Belgium

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  #47  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:48 AM
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Princess Léa was married to a son of a King. She is in the same position as Princess Claire. It is correct indeed.
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  #48  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
According to Wikipedia ,Princess Léa of Belgium uses the general Princess of Belgium coat of arms same as the Kings younger daughter, sister,sister inlaw and nieces,its a bit chaotic .

Coat of arms of a Princess of Belgium




I think it is consistent. The logic is that there are five different "ranks" in the Belgian RF:


  1. The King (or Queen) of the Belgians
  2. The King (or Queen) emeritus (emerita), i.e. upon abdication
  3. The Duke (or Duchess) of Brabant
  4. The Princes (or Princesses) of Belgium (other than the Duke or Duchess of Brabant, or the King or Queen)
  5. The other princes or princesses of the Royal House who are not Princes/Princesses of Belgium (not HRHs).
There is a specific coat of arms for each of the 5 categories. In addition, categories 2-5 also have differentiated arms for males and females. The present King's children, siblings, nephews/nieces and aunts fall all under category 4 and that is why they have the same arms. There could be separate arms for example for the King's children adding a cadet labelto the escutheon (as usual), but the Belgians decided to add a three-point label only to the arms of Duke/Duchess of Brabant.


As always, it is not clear who the members of category 5 are. As I said before, also in connection with the titles and styles of the Royal Family, my opinion is that category 5 includes
all descendants of Léopold I (other than the descendants of the King's aunts) who are not Princes or Princesses of Belgium under the Royal Decree of 2015. It would be equivalent then to a "prince du sang" or dynast, including all grandchildren of Princess Astrid or Prince Laurent. But that is only my personal interpretation of the Royal Decrees. I know other posters disagree.
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  #49  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:58 AM
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It is not the actual position or the HRH which determines the Arns but the descendance.

Princess Marie-Esmeralda (daughter of King Léopold III), Princess Astrid (daughter of King Albert II) and Princess Eleonore (daughter of King Philippe) have the same Arms: a blason with a golden lining.

Prince Amedeo (daughter of Princess Astrid), Prince Nicholas (son of Prince Laurent) have the same Arms: a blason with a purple lining.

All of them are HRH and Prince(ss) of Belgium. But the ones who are children of a King or Heir have a golden lining, the others a purple one. It is the distance to a King which makes the difference.
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  #50  
Old 08-10-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is not the actual position or the HRH which determines the Arns but the descendance.

Princess Marie-Esmeralda (daughter of King Léopold III), Princess Astrid (daughter of King Albert II) and Princess Eleonore (daughter of King Philippe) have the same Arms: a blason with a golden lining.

Prince Amedeo (daughter of Princess Astrid), Prince Nicholas (son of Prince Laurent) have the same Arms: a blason with a purple lining.

All of them are HRH and Prince(ss) of Belgium. But the ones who are children of a King or Heir have a golden lining, the others a purple one. It is the distance to a King which makes the difference.
No, all of the above have the gold border as Princes and Princesses of Belgium in the direct line of descent from Leopold I, as determined by Article 4.

It is Princess Anna Astrid who has the purple border as a Princess of the Royal House who is not a Princess of Belgium, as determined by Article 5.


The words in the decree of 2019 are:

Article 1.

Our arms are [a description of his coat of arms].

Art. 2.

The King or Queen who has abdicated uses [a description of his or her coat of arms].

Art. 3.

The Duke or Duchess of Brabant uses [a description of his or her coat of arms].

Art. 4.

The other Princes or Princesses of Belgium of the male-line and female-line descendance in direct line from His Majesty Leopold I use [a description of their coat of arms].

Art. 5.

The Princes or Princesses of Our Royal House who are not covered by article 4 use [a description of their coat of arms].

Art. 6.

The small coat of arms of Our Royal House is [a description of its coat of arms].

Art. 7.

The middle coat of arms of Our Royal House is [a description of its coat of arms].


Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Princess Astrids should be different as she's married to the Archduke of Austria-Este I don't know why the Belgian Royal Court does not differentiate between the Princesses.
The conjugal arms of married royals and royals by marriage were not covered under the Royal Decree of 2019. Neither were they covered under the Royal Decrees of 1880 or 1910.

I suppose it is old custom and not legislation which allows married women to either "impale" their husband's arms with their own arms (which they keep after marriage) on the same shield or place them side by side on two separate shields (which seems to have been the custom in the Belgian royal family).

I am not sure if married men are allowed to use their wives' arms in the same way under the customs of the Benelux countries (they are allowed to do so in Britain).


Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
According to Wikipedia ,Princess Léa of Belgium uses the general Princess of Belgium coat of arms same as the Kings younger daughter, sister,sister inlaw and nieces,its a bit chaotic .

Coat of arms of a Princess of Belgium

I am not sure what arms Léa is supposed to use considering she is a commoner and (I assume) not entitled to arms in her own right, but using her husband's arms by themselves would seem reasonable. However, in the Benelux countries, a married woman would place her arms in an oval, not a diamond.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Wouldn’t the arms without the supporters and canopy be her “ small arms” ? They should include the princely crown though.
I think so, although I am no expert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Wikipedia had updated the arms of the members of the Belgian RF including Princess Éleonore, see

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prin...ore_of_Belgium
But not for Princess Astrid's branch of the family (whom they also refer to by the wrong titles).
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  #51  
Old 08-10-2019, 09:33 AM
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Did Her Royal Highness The Princess of Réthy have her own coat of arms,I've never seen it?
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  #52  
Old 08-10-2019, 11:46 AM
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In my understanding Elisabeth and her siblings are in direct line, from King on King. If we interpret it as direct descendance from Léopold I everyone qualifies. It is too vague, confusing and the Arms are only recognizable after a detailed study. The purpose of Arms, deducting the wearer, is completely lost here. One can not see who is the papa and mama of Belgian royals.

For an example:
Juliana had the Mecklenburg Bull as heart shield.
Beatrix and her sisters have the Lippe Rose as heart shield.
Willem-Alexander and his brother have the Amsberg Tower as heart shield.
Catharina-Amalia and her siblings have the Zorreguieta Stronghold as heart shield.

That makes their arms deductible: who is who.
But it is impossible to differentiate the Arms of Marie-Esmeralda (Baels), Astrid (Ruffo di Calabria) and Eleonore (d'Udekem d'Acoz) apart: all three of them have i d e n t i c a l Arms!
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  #53  
Old 08-10-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In my understanding Elisabeth and her siblings are in direct line, from King on King. If we interpret it as direct descendance from Léopold I everyone qualifies.
But the decree leaves no room for interpretation in that aspect. Article 4 refers to Princes and Princess of Belgium in "direct line from His Majesty Leopold I", not "direct line from the King".
Art. 4. De andere Prinsen of Prinsessen van België uit de mannelijke en vrouwelijke nakomelingschap in rechte lijn van Zijne Majesteit Leopold I voeren het wapenschild, ruitvormig voor de Prinsessen, zoals beschreven in artikel 1, omboord van goud. [...]

Art. 4. Les autres Princes ou Princesses de Belgique de la descendance masculine et féminine en ligne directe de Sa Majesté Léopold Ier portent l'écu des armes, en losange pour les Princesses, tel qu'il est décrit à l'article 1er, chargé d'une filière d'or. [...]

(Art. 4. The other Princes or Princesses of Belgium of the male-line and female-line descendance in direct line from His Majesty Leopold I use the shield of the arms, upon a lozenge for the Princesses, in the form in which it is described in Article 1, with a gold border. [...])

https://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/mo...19_2.pdf#Page8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is too vague, confusing and the Arms are only recognizable after a detailed study. The purpose of Arms, deducting the wearer, is completely lost here. One can not see who is the papa and mama of Belgian royals.

For an example:
Juliana had the Mecklenburg Bull as heart shield.
Beatrix and her sisters have the Lippe Rose as heart shield.
Willem-Alexander and his brother have the Amsberg Tower as heart shield.
Catharina-Amalia and her siblings have the Zorreguieta Stronghold as heart shield.

That makes their arms deductible: who is who.
But it is impossible to differentiate the Arms of Marie-Esmeralda (Baels), Astrid (Ruffo di Calabria) and Eleonore (d'Udekem d'Acoz) apart: all three of them have i d e n t i c a l Arms!
Well, under the historical laws of arms, mothers had no right - in the normal course of events - to transmit their arms. Neither the Queens consort of Belgium, nor the Queens consort of the Netherlands prior to Queen Máxima, transmitted their arms to their sons and daughters.

It seems to me that the arms of the Princes consort of the Netherlands were introduced into the heartshields of their children because they were men and not women, just as their titles and family names were introduced into those of their children (while Queen Wilhelmina for example never was a Princess of Waldeck and Pyrmont by right of her mother). Three consecutive princes consort was clearly sufficient to turn it into a custom which was followed for Máxima, thus the heartshield of Zorreguieta in her children's arms (although it confuses me why Máxima legally renounced the name Zorreguieta upon marriage instead of transmitting it to her children as the princes consort did).


Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Did Her Royal Highness The Princess of Réthy have her own coat of arms,I've never seen it?
I don't know for sure, but I highly doubt she would have been granted one, given that the government did not even assent to legalizing the courtesy title of Princess of Réthy.
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  #54  
Old 08-10-2019, 12:27 PM
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This Royal Decree of 2019 just made all its flaws apparent. The 'coat-of-arms' should be subject for intense modification.
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  #55  
Old 08-10-2019, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
This Royal Decree of 2019 just made all its flaws apparent. The 'coat-of-arms' should be subject for intense modification.
What do you mean? Within the Belgian nobility it is normal that all men in a noble family use the same coat of arms, so distinguishing between five different ranks in the royal family (see messages 48 and 50) seems to me adequate.
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  #56  
Old 08-10-2019, 02:28 PM
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The degree is from July 2019. As you know you have actually no Government.
Will we have one in Ocober 25 th for Princess Elisabeh 18th Birthday, not sure.
It was wise to do it at the Moment of our National Day.
All is ready for the entire Royal Family.
Queen Mathilde Coat of Arms will be later for Queen Elisabeth.
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  #57  
Old 08-10-2019, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
This Royal Decree of 2019 just made all its flaws apparent. The 'coat-of-arms' should be subject for intense modification.
Which flaws were made apparent ?
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  #58  
Old 08-10-2019, 04:02 PM
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The coat of arms of HI&RH Prince Lorenz,Archduke of Austria-Este.


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  #59  
Old 08-10-2019, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
[...] Máxima legally renounced the name Zorreguieta upon marriage instead of transmitting it to her children as the princes consort did).
[....]
Máxima renounced nothing. Like Mathilde, or Fabiola, or Paola did not renounce anything. They just have another style, title, name and form of address since their marriage.

It is true that Máxima's children do not have the surname Zorreguieta. But they also no longer have their father's name Von Amsberg... The Government has given a reason, but this is about the Belgians, so better in another thread.
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  #60  
Old 08-10-2019, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
The degree is from July 2019. As you know you have actually no Government.
Will we have one in Ocober 25 th for Princess Elisabeh 18th Birthday, not sure.
It was wise to do it at the Moment of our National Day.
All is ready for the entire Royal Family.
Queen Mathilde Coat of Arms will be later for Queen Elisabeth.
As I understand it, when Elisabeth becomes Queen, she will inherit the coat of arms used at the moment by King Philippe (Article 1 of the Royal Decree of 2019). King Leopold II's Royal Decree of 1880 made this clearer, giving this coat of arms to "Nous et Nos successeurs" (Us and Our successors), though of course women at the time could not be successors.

For now, Princess Elisabeth's arms have already been given an upgrade to (nearly) the same status as the arms of a male Crown Prince under the July 2019 decree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
The coat of arms of HI&RH Prince Lorenz,Archduke of Austria-Este.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rit%29.svg.png
Interestingly, from the time he became Prince of Belgium, Lorenz (and his wife and children) substituted HRH for HI&RH.

Here is a recent example: https://www.monarchie.be/nl/agenda/f...rk-van-brussel

Considering that one of the reasons the latest decree was issued was to adapt the arms of the Royal Family to be in keeping with gender equality, I wonder if he is or will be allowed to use his wife's arms in addition, in the same way as the consort of a prince.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Máxima renounced nothing. Like Mathilde, or Fabiola, or Paola did not renounce anything. They just have another style, title, name and form of address since their marriage.

It is true that Máxima's children do not have the surname Zorreguieta. But they also no longer have their father's name Von Amsberg... The Government has given a reason, but this is about the Belgians, so better in another thread.
Interesting; I will inquire about it in the Netherlands forum.
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