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  #21  
Old 07-23-2019, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The ribbon includes all three languages. The German is written on the right of the photograph. The photograph in the posted article unfortunately chopped off the French.


There is some interesting (for me ) wording included in the new decree which relates to the 2015 restructuring of the Belgian royal titles and surnames, so I will most likely write a post in the titles thread in the near future.
As with the 2015 decree, the preamble also addresses the reasons.

As regards your question: Titles of the Belgian Royal Family

The text of the Royal Decree can be found in the link below.


Arrete Royal du 12/07/2019 determinant les armoiries de la maison royale et de ses membres


I must confess, however, that, for non-experts in heraldry, it is difficult to understand the design from the text only. It would be nice if the Palace published pictures of the new arms of the King, the Queen, the King emeritus, the Queen emerita, the Duchess of Brabant, a generic Prince and a generic Princess of Belgium who are not the heir, and a generic Prince and a generic Princess of the Royal House who are not a Prince or Princess of Belgium (art. 5).


I also have another question that the experts here might be able to answer. Does the Order of Leopold actually have a collar or is the chain in the royal coat of arms purely heraldic ?
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  #22  
Old 07-24-2019, 02:05 AM
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I don't believe that Order of Leopold has a chain nor does Belgium even have a physical crown so both are just simply heraldic additions.
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  #23  
Old 07-24-2019, 02:29 AM
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According to one source, the decision of reinstating the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha main royal arms happened after their recent visit at the ancestral Friedenstein Castle.

Royal Decree of 12 July 2019

**http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/eli...30777/moniteur
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  #24  
Old 07-24-2019, 06:13 AM
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What a perfect Heraldic Language.

The Order of Leopold never had a Collar or a Chain. For his wedding King Bausouin wore the Spanish Collar of isabelle la Catholique

The most used Royal monogram is he One of Queen Elisabeth. She created la Chapelle Musicale reine Elisabeth in 1939 , 80 years ago.and the world known
Concours Reine Elisabeth
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  #25  
Old 07-24-2019, 06:25 AM
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I've never seen the coat of arms of Princess Astrid as Archduchess of Austria-Este I wonder if one exists?
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  #26  
Old 07-24-2019, 06:31 AM
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It exists but she never uses it , she has no personal Foundation to put it on.
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  #27  
Old 07-24-2019, 07:16 AM
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This link leads to a pdf from the Belgisch Staatsblad / Moniteur Belge and shows the various arms from page 11 onwards :

http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/mop...19_2.pdf#Page8

1.
The grand coat-of-arms is used by The King (gender neutral).

2.
The grand coat-of-arms is used by the King (gender neutral) who has abdicated,.
The difference with 1 is that the helmet above is facing sideways and the shield is crossed with a golden lambel with three pendants. The coat is flanked with two national flags.

3.
The grand coat-of-arms is used by the Duchess of Brabant.
The shield is lozenge (female) and is crossed with a golden lambel with three pendants. The shield is not topped with a helmet, like in 1 and 2, but with a crown. The coat is flanked with two national flags.

4.
The grand coat-of-arms in use by the other children of the King and the children of the Duchess of Brabant. Similar to 3, but in male form. The coat is flanked by two flags of the Dukedom of Brabant

5.
The same as 4. But then in female form.

6.
The grand coat-of-arms in use by a Prince of Belgium in direct lineage to the King other than his children or the children of the Duchess of Brabant. Similar to 4. The coat is not flanked by flags and has a golden cadre.

7.
The same as 6. But then in female form.

8.
The grand coat-of-arms in use by a Prince of Belgium in not direct lineage to the King. Similar to 6. The coat is not flanked by flags and has a purple cadre.

9.
The same as 8. But then in female form.

10.
The small coat-of-arms of the Royal House

11.
The medium coat-of-arms of the Royal House (same as 1O but with the Order of Léopold).
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  #28  
Old 07-24-2019, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
According to one source, the decision of reinstating the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha main royal arms happened after their recent visit at the ancestral Friedenstein Castle.

Royal Decree of 12 July 2019

**http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/eli...30777/moniteur

I am not sure it is a good idea. I know the Royal Decree of 2015 says that the Princes and Princesses can use the titles they hold "by right of ancestry". Germany, however, is now a republic and the titles they are claiming, like Duke of Saxony and Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, are no longer legally recognized.


Apparently, the Belgian government said that, by ceasing to use the Wettin arms, the Belgian Royal House was being hostile to Germany and that wouldn't make sense today 100 years after the Great War. Quite frankly, that is a very odd statement, but, irrespective of suggesting how subservient some EU countries have become to Germany, I don't see how using titles that the Federal Republic of Germany doesn't recognize would be equivalent to extending an olive branch to your neighbors.


Besides, it is also inconsistent. Princess Astrid's children are Princes and Princesses of Belgium who descend in direct female line from King Leopold I. Under Art. 4 of the Royal Decree of 2019, they will use then the new arms of the Princes or Princesses of Belgium who are not the heir, which include the Saxony arms. However, they are not members of the House of Wettin and are not entitled by ancestry to use the titles of Duke of Saxony or Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha as those do not descend in female line. To be consistent with the 2015 decree , they should use the arms of the House of Austria-Este instead.


Please also note that gender equality in the 2019 Royal Decree applies only to the King or reigning Queen. For all other categories in the Royal House, including a monarch who has abdicated, the Duke of Brabant, a generic Prince of Belgium who is not the heir, and a generic Prince who is not a Prince of Belgium, there are differentiated shields for males and females in their respective coats of arms.


The best thing to come out of this Royal Decree in my opinion is that Princess Elisabeth at least got a proper coat of arms as Duchess of Brabant, differentiated from those of her siblings and cousins, which was badly needed. Besides, I personally think that all the proposed designs are quite nice.
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  #29  
Old 07-24-2019, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I am not sure it is a good idea. I know the Royal Decree of 2015 says that the Princes and Princesses can use the titles they hold "by right of ancestry". Germany, however, is now a republic and the titles they are claiming, like Duke of Saxony and Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, are no longer legally recognized.


Apparently, the Belgian government said that, by ceasing to use the Wettin arms, the Belgian Royal House was being hostile to Germany and that wouldn't make sense today 100 years after the Great War. Quite frankly, that is a very odd statement, but, irrespective of suggesting how subservient some EU countries have become to Germany, I don't see how using titles that the Federal Republic of Germany doesn't recognize would be equivalent to extending an olive branch to your neighbors.


Besides, it is also inconsistent. Princess Astrid's children are Princes and Princesses of Belgium who descend in direct female line from King Leopold I. Under Art. 4 of the Royal Decree of 2019, they will use then the new arms of the Princes or Princesses of Belgium who are not the heir, which includes the Saxony arms. However, they are not members of the House of Wettin and are not entitled by ancestry to use the titles of Duke of Saxony or Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha as those do not descend in female line. To be consistent with the 2015 decree , they should use the arms of the House of Austria-Este instead.


Please also note that gender equality in the 2019 Royal Decree applies only to the King or reigning Queen. For all other categories in the Royal House, including a monarch who has abdicated, the Duke of Brabant, a generic Prince of Belgium who is not the heir, and a generic Prince who is not a Prince of Belgium, there are differentiated shields for males and females in their respective coats of arms.


The best thing to come out of this Royal Decree in my opinion is that Princess Elisabeth at least got a proper coat of arms as Duchess of Brabant, differentiated from those of her siblings and cousins, which was badly needed. Besides, I personally think that all the proposed designs are quite nice.
Well, it is not the coat-of-arms of the House of Saxony, it is the coat-of-arms of the House of Belgium (with an element of Saxony indeed). As the House of Belgium has a gender-neutral titulature, I can understand the use of Arms corresponding with these titles, even while Amedeo is factually an Archduke of Austria, he is still a Prince of Belgium.

The titles of the House Sachsen-Coburg indeed do not exist anymore in the Bundesrepublik Deutschland, but these were part of the official titulature of the princes of the Royal House of Belgium. King Albert's own father Léopold III, his uncle Charles and his aunt Marie-José were all prins (prinses) van België, prins (prinses) van Saksen-Coburg en Gotha, hertog (hertogin) van Saksen. That after WWI King Albert I did interrupt the use of this style, of course does not mean that in 2019 King Philippe, grandson of Léopold III, can not decide to re-use these titles.
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  #30  
Old 07-24-2019, 09:20 AM
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Thank you for the descriptions, Duc. A few corrections (mainly: all Princes of Belgium and Princesses of Belgium respectively who are descended from Leopold I, apart from the Duchess or Duke of Brabant, use the same arms, and the arms of an abdicated Queen differ from the arms of an abdicated King):


Page 10.
The grand coat of arms used by the King or Queen who is reigning (Article 1).

Page 11.
The grand coat of arms used by the King who has abdicated (Article 2).

Page 12.
The grand coat of arms used by the Queen who has abdicated (Article 2).

Page 13.
The grand coat of arms used by the Duke of Brabant (Article 3).

Page 14.
The grand coat of arms used by the Duchess of Brabant (Article 3).

Page 15.
The grand coat of arms used by a Prince of Belgium (Article 4).

Page 16.
The grand coat of arms used by a Princess of Belgium (Article 4).

Page 17.
The grand coat of arms used by a Prince of the Royal House who is not a Prince of Belgium (Article 5).

Page 18.
The grand coat of arms used by a Princess of the Royal House who is not a Princess of Belgium (Article 5).

Page 19.
The small coat of arms of the Royal House (Article 6).

Page 20.
The medium coat of arms of the Royal House (Article 7).



Articles 1-7 read:

Article 1.

Our arms are [a description of his coat of arms].

Art. 2.

The King or Queen who has abdicated uses [a description of his or her coat of arms].

Art. 3.

The Duke or Duchess of Brabant uses [a description of his or her coat of arms].

Art. 4.

The other Princes or Princesses of Belgium of the male-line and female-line descendance in direct line from His Majesty Leopold I use [a description of their coat of arms].

Art. 5.

The Princes or Princesses of Our Royal House who are not covered by article 4 use [a description of their coat of arms].

Art. 6.

The small coat of arms of Our Royal House is [a description of its coat of arms].

Art. 7.

The middle coat of arms of Our Royal House is [a description of its coat of arms].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post

Apparently, the Belgian government said that, by ceasing to use the Wettin arms, the Belgian Royal House was being hostile to Germany and that wouldn't make sense today 100 years after the Great War. Quite frankly, that is a very odd statement, but, irrespective of suggesting how subservient some EU countries have become to Germany, I don't see how using titles that the Federal Republic of Germany doesn't recognize would be equivalent to extending an olive branch to your neighbors.
Interesting. Do you have the link to the government's statement?
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  #31  
Old 07-24-2019, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I am not sure it is a good idea. I know the Royal Decree of 2015 says that the Princes and Princesses can use the titles they hold "by right of ancestry". Germany, however, is now a republic and the titles they are claiming, like Duke of Saxony and Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, are no longer legally recognized.


Apparently, the Belgian government said that, by ceasing to use the Wettin arms, the Belgian Royal House was being hostile to Germany and that wouldn't make sense today 100 years after the Great War. Quite frankly, that is a very odd statement, but, irrespective of suggesting how subservient some EU countries have become to Germany, I don't see how using titles that the Federal Republic of Germany doesn't recognize would be equivalent to extending an olive branch to your neighbors.


Besides, it is also inconsistent. Princess Astrid's children are Princes and Princesses of Belgium who descend in direct female line from King Leopold I. Under Art. 4 of the Royal Decree of 2019, they will use then the new arms of the Princes or Princesses of Belgium who are not the heir, which includes the Saxony arms. However, they are not members of the House of Wettin and are not entitled by ancestry to use the titles of Duke of Saxony or Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha as those do not descend in female line. To be consistent with the 2015 decree , they should use the arms of the House of Austria-Este instead.


Please also note that gender equality in the 2019 Royal Decree applies only to the King or reigning Queen. For all other categories in the Royal House, including a monarch who has abdicated, the Duke of Brabant, a generic Prince of Belgium who is not the heir, and a generic Prince who is not a Prince of Belgium, there are differentiated shields for males and females in their respective coats of arms.


The best thing to come out of this Royal Decree in my opinion is that Princess Elisabeth at least got a proper coat of arms as Duchess of Brabant, differentiated from those of her siblings and cousins, which was badly needed. Besides, I personally think that all the proposed designs are quite nice.
Actually, I understand both points. Firstly, I also think it's unnecessary to add anything on the coat-of-arms and the question why it had to wait 6 years for this to happen remains a mystery. Secondly, Albert I decided to change the House name from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha to Belgium in 1920 due to anti-German sentiment so I think, it's pretty unnecessary to include anything about SCG again in the coat-of-arms. Lastly, I think the only coat-of-arms that needs changing is the Duchess of Brabant's. And I'm extremely happy with the result.

But all is well. Philippe might have felt the need to look back on their ancestry. Good thing, they had this recent trip and decided on this.

There's really no problem if we look at the bigger picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Well, it is not the coat-of-arms of the House of Saxony, it is the coat-of-arms of the House of Belgium (with an element of Saxony indeed). As the House of Belgium has a gender-neutral titulature, I can understand the use of Arms corresponding with these titles, even while Amedeo is factually an Archduke of Austria, he is still a Prince of Belgium.

The titles of the House Sachsen-Coburg indeed do not exist anymore in the Bundesrepublik Deutschland, but these were part of the official titulature of the princes of the Royal House of Belgium. King Albert's own father Léopold III, his uncle Charles and his aunt Marie-José were all prins (prinses) van België, prins (prinses) van Saksen-Coburg en Gotha, hertog (hertogin) van Saksen. That after WWI King Albert I did interrupt the use of this style, of course does not mean that in 2019 King Philippe, grandson of Léopold III, can not decide to re-use these titles.
Thank you for the clarification, Duc! I also feel that it's unnecessary to reuse their ancestral titles should Philippe decide on this. Ultimately, I think he just felt reconnected to his roots during his trip and decided to act on the coat-of-arms.

All is well.
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  #32  
Old 07-25-2019, 04:00 PM
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The Coat of arms of HRH The Duchess of Brabant as of the royal decree July 2019.




Coat of Arms of King Albert II as of July 2019

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  #33  
Old 07-28-2019, 05:28 PM
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The explanations for the changes are communicated within the decree (page 8):

http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/mop...19_2.pdf#Page8

Considering the Constitution, articles 85 and 113;

Considering the royal decree of 13 July 1880 establishing the arms of the Royal House, in its form amended by the royal decree of 17 June 1910;

Considering the royal decree of 16 December 1840 awarding the title of Duke of Brabant to the presumptive heir to the Crown and that of Count of Flanders to Prince Philippe, in its form amended by the royal decree of 16 October 2001;

Considering the royal decree of 12 November 2015 on the subject of conferring the title of Prince or Princess of Belgium;

Whereas, following Our ascension to the Throne, it is proper to adapt the rules setting out the arms of the Royal House and those of its members to the historical and juridical developments that have occurred after the coming into effect of the royal decree of 17 June 1910;

Whereas the decrees in effect at the present time are no longer adequate for all of the situations which present themselves, and it is essential to correct the risk of confusion which opens the door to inappropriate and harmful heraldic usages, publicly as well as privately;


Those points make obvious why it was necessary to "adapt the rules to the historical and juridical developments":

Following the amended Article 85 of the Constitution, Elisabeth, not Gabriel, is the future monarch, and Astrid and her children are higher in the line to the throne than Laurent and his children.
The royal decree of 16 December 1840 was amended by the royal decree of 16 October 2001 so that Elisabeth, not Gabriel, is the Duchess of Brabant.
The royal decrees of 2 December 1991 and 12 November 2015 regulated the titles and names of Astrid's descendants together with the descendants in male line.

However, according to the the royal decree of 13 July 1880 in its form amended by the royal decree of 17 June 1910,

1. Gabriel, Emmanuel, Laurent, Nicolas, and Aymeric would use a grand coat of arms dressed with a helmet, supporters, flags, motto, canopy, and crown, much like the coats of arms on page 11 and page 13 in the PDF link above (and posted in message #32 ).

2. Elisabeth, Eléonore, Astrid, and Louise would use a shield dressed with merely a crown, much like the coat of arms on page 19 in the link.

3. Amedeo, Anna Astrid, Maria Laura, Joachim, Luisa Maria, and Laetitia Maria would not use the Belgian royal arms, but only the arms of their father.


Applying a resplendent coat of arms to Nicolas and Aymeric, while the Crown Princess was forced to use a simplified one, and six princes and princesses higher in line to the throne than Nicolas and Aymeric were denied the use of the royal arms, was obviously inconsistent with the juridical developments since 1910.


As far as the reintroduction of the arms of Saxony is concerned, King Philippe, as a necessary legal step in the royal decree of 12 November 2015, reintroduced the Saxe-Coburg titles for the descendants of Leopold I in male line (read more here: Titles of the Belgian Royal Family). The use of the arms of Saxony is in keeping with the reintroduction of the titles.


However, the decree is indeed years overdue, considering that the introduction of gender-neutral primogeniture was completed in 1991, and the reintroduction of the Saxe-Coburg titles in 2015. Which is why I wonder whether the mention of "inappropriate and harmful heraldic usages" may be hinting at some particular incident which was upsetting to the King.

Alternatively, perhaps there will some type of celebration of Princess Elisabeth's coming of age at which her father would like to display her coat of arms.



Quote:
Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
According to one source, the decision of reinstating the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha main royal arms happened after their recent visit at the ancestral Friedenstein Castle.

Royal Decree of 12 July 2019

**http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/eli...30777/moniteur
The decree is dated July 12, but the preparatory work must have been initiated a long time prior to the visit to Friedenstein Castle on July 9. The royal decree of 1880 required a whole year of preparations, and while modern technologies would perhaps be able to expedite the procedure, it would realistically still require a longer span of time than three days for the deliberations of the council of nobility and submissions of designs for authorization and drafting.
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  #34  
Old 07-29-2019, 02:16 AM
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One question: where in Elisabeth's coat of arms is her mother's side of the family? Or is it just a paternal thing?
I am not very good with heraldic stuff so I thank anyone who can answer me :)
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Old 07-29-2019, 03:30 AM
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There's no reference to House of d'Udekem d'Acoz on Elisabeth's Coat of Arms


Coat of arms of the House of d'Udekem d'Acoz


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  #36  
Old 07-29-2019, 03:36 AM
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The Coat of Arms of the late Queen Fabiola


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  #37  
Old 07-29-2019, 04:06 AM
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One question: where in Elisabeth's coat of arms is her mother's side of the family? Or is it just a paternal thing?
I am not very good with heraldic stuff so I thank anyone who can answer me :)

It is usually a paternal line but in the case of Princess Catharina-Amalia the arms of the Zorreguieta family were added (a stronghold flanked with two cypresses and two wolves): https://docplayer.nl/docs-images/49/...ges/page_8.jpg

Traditional Princess Catharina-Amalia's paternal Von Amsberg arms would have been there. So it is a choice to use the maternal Zorreguieta arms instead. Click on the document to expand.
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  #38  
Old 07-29-2019, 06:56 AM
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One question: where in Elisabeth's coat of arms is her mother's side of the family? Or is it just a paternal thing?
I am not very good with heraldic stuff so I thank anyone who can answer me :)
The decree does not make any allowances for references to the other side of the family in the arms of the royals of the blood. Any given royal under each category uses exactly the same arms. Elisabeth's arms are completely paternal then, whereas the arms of Astrid's children are completely maternal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Please also note that gender equality in the 2019 Royal Decree applies only to the King or reigning Queen. For all other categories in the Royal House, including a monarch who has abdicated, the Duke of Brabant, a generic Prince of Belgium who is not the heir, and a generic Prince who is not a Prince of Belgium, there are differentiated shields for males and females in their respective coats of arms.
In addition, a helmet tops the shield in the arms of a King emeritus or a Duke of Brabant, but not in the arms of a Queen emerita or a Duchess of Brabant. Having said that, the new rules considerably narrowed the gap between the arms of females and males in comparison to the rules of 1910, and the remaining differences are not too noticeable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is usually a paternal line but in the case of Princess Catharina-Amalia the arms of the Zorreguieta family were added (a stronghold flanked with two cypresses and two wolves): https://docplayer.nl/docs-images/49/...ges/page_8.jpg

Traditional Princess Catharina-Amalia's paternal Von Amsberg arms would have been there. So it is a choice to use the maternal Zorreguieta arms instead. Click on the document to expand.
You are right. To be more specific, it is traditional in royal heraldry at large to display the arms of the bearer's dynastic origins as an inescutcheon, the smaller shield in the center. For instance, the arms of Oldenburg are used in this capacity in the arms of the Danish Queen and Crown Prince (the Glücksborg dynasty being a cadet branch of Oldenborg), and the inescutcheon of the Swedish royal arms has changed each time the name of the royal house was changed.

But not every house consistently follows this rule, and in particular it appears the two branches of the House of Nassau have decided on alternative designs. The personal arms of the Dutch royals display the arms of the Houses of Lippe, Amsberg, Vollenhoven, and Zorreguieta on their inescutcheons, even though the royal house is the House of Orange-Nassau, and the Luxembourg grand coat of arms displays an inescutcheon of Bourbon-Parma even though the ruling house is Nassau.
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  #39  
Old 07-29-2019, 02:41 PM
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The coat of Arms of HRH Eleonore of Belgium since the Royal Decree of July 2019.

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  #40  
Old 07-29-2019, 03:48 PM
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Princess Eléonore's new coat of arms also includes other new elements (supporters in the form of lions, a canopy, and so on). It can be viewed on page 16 of this link and is described in article 4 of the decree on page 8.

https://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/mo...9_2.pdf#Page16

Princesses Astrid, Maria Laura, Luisa Maria, Laetitia Maria, Louise, Marie-Christine, and Esmeralda will use the same coat of arms.
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