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  #441  
Old 06-15-2014, 12:11 AM
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Come on Elizabeth... "He has left Spain in such a mess"... I think you have missed the fact that Spain is governed by a democratically elected Government and comprises of 17 autonomous regions, all with their own Governments and parliaments, holding great executive powers? How can a ceremonial head of state have left "Spain in such a mess"? Is it his fault that the real estate bubble exploded? Is it his fault that the worldwide crisis which started in the United States engulfed the world and hit his nation mercilessly hard?

This King started his Reign as a puppet from dictator Franco but, despite being indoctrinated as Franco's effective hostage, nevertheless took a firm hand and lead Spain into the modern world, to liberalize the country, to join the EU and NATO. Spain, in the 1980's still one of Europe's poorest countries made a gi-gan-tic boom in the Reign of King Juan Carlos. It started with the best Olympics ever, the one of Barcelona 1992. Then the world suddenly saw a new and a modern Spain. The nineties and the first decade of the millenium saw Spain as one of Europe's economic miracles. The King's reputation and public approval rose to unseen heights.

The deep crisis hit Spain hard. Almost half (!) of the youth can not find work. Spain and the Spaniards had to bring immense sacrifices to keep up those financial giants to prevent the whole nation tumbling down. With draconic measures Spain has now found the right way. Of course this immensely affected the trust the Spaniards have in their country, in the State, the institutions of State, the financial world, all embodied by the person of the King. They see that Spaniards are enforced to leave their properties. They see that Spaniards have to queue for food banks. They see that the best and the brightest leave the country to find jobs elsewhere. It is only natural that the general discontentment translates into more zest amongst separatists, more hostility against "the gentlemen there high up above us in Madrid" and ultimately embodied by the most profiled Spaniard of all, the King.

Please, no any of today's present Kings has endured what Don Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón had. Born in exile in Italy. Spending his youth in Portugal. Back in Spain being separated from his parents and "hostaged" by Franco to brainwash him in a "true patriot" (according his fascist ideology). He saw his brother-in-law loosing his throne in Greece. He had to fight for his sake amongst scepticism and pretenders. In the first years as King he was met with suspicion, the Spaniards fearing a second Franco hidden behind that smile. The coup d'état by discontent military which was slashed down by the King's unlimited support towards democracy.

Really... Palmam Qui Meruit Ferat (Honour Those Deserving Honour). After the announcement of the abdication, the Spanish media were overflooded with retrospectives about the King's Reign. The Spaniards have -again- realized how eventful the King's Reign was, how they all live in a total different Spain than when the King started. The praise and the approval for the King's Reign is high but all admit that it was wise he abdicated. The King visibly is in pain, the Spaniards see a very aged, old man suffering physic problems. Behind him they see a tall, healthy and proud Prince, full of zest and facing a bright future. It is only natural that such a change revives an institution. We saw it in Belgium. Even in the Netherlands, where the approval for Queen Beatrix was rock high, her abdication rejuvenated the Royal House.

I do commend you on your comment, it seems I have tons to learn about JC and his life. You have given me a wealth of info that I did not know before. I will tell you that I have judged this man on how he has treated his wife, *I don't like men that cheat on their wives* period and guess you can assume why I said that.
You can't blame JC's character flaws on the world crisis wherever it was started. It is the character of the person that I find fault with and believe me I find tons of fault with my own government from the president down to each and every member of congress(who buy the way cost more then your one king cost your country), I have no love for someone trying to cover their tracks when they do something to hurt their country or family. I honestly think all the trappings of being King, the power, the perks, the world at his feet, the women, wine, song whatever has and did go to his head who then thinks he can do as he pleases. He was King, being King to me means, that you are above reproach and do not do some of the things that he did, such as *Killing an innocent elephant(you don't want to get me started on killing any animal as I am a HUGE 4 legged animal lover), I hate any animal head's on a wall, I will and have gotten up and left homes and places to eat that have had them on the walls, I don't eat meat,that to me what he did was unforgivable and taking his mistress with him, good grief, when I said he left the country a mess, a mess was the morals that he brought Spain down to.........lower then an ally cat. Being King means you set standards, you are to uphold all the traditions that your country is founded on and you are the head on the world stage. He lost that big time, how can anyone hold their head up high on the world stage and think for one minute that the heads/crowns of the world will respect you? He can't. I don't hate the man, I just dislike him for thinking he was entitled to do as he pleases and suffer no guilt or problems over it........... we all have childhood/adult things in our lives that make us who we are today and yet we all have choices to to the right thing or the wrong thing. He is now going to suffer his choices and I hope he thinks long and hard on his choices and what they did to him and Spain....it's really sad for him to go out this way yet it is his own chosing not anybody else's.
Thank you for the history lesson, I love reading history, my favorite history is the Ancient Near East, and Ancient Europe, things have to be around hundreds or thousands of years old to hold my interest, yet I want you to please feel free to give me a history lesson any time. I love learning in life, one of the pleasure that few understand.
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  #442  
Old 06-15-2014, 12:40 AM
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I agree 100% with Duc et Pair.

Juan Carlos was a wonderful King at a time when it was crucial for Spain to have such a monarch. He accomplished far more good than bad. It's a shame that people are going to judge his entire reign on the last few disastrous years of it. J-C deserves better.

Finally, I have said this before. I don't care if he violated his marriage vows. That information is quite simply not the business of the public. The public is not part of the marital contract, and this goes for any leader. It's between the two people who made vows.

I think this obsession that elected leaders and even non-elected ones must be squeaking clean morally will do, and has already done, incalculable damage as far as quality of the people who are choosing to enter public service.

It's almost as if the public would welcome mediocre or sub par leadership... as long as the person doesn't cheat!
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  #443  
Old 06-15-2014, 01:14 AM
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MoonMaiden:
It's almost as if the public would welcome mediocre or sub par leadership... as long as the person doesn't cheat!

For some the vows mean something, for others, well they could care less and that is okay! In breaking those vows said in church before God, they should mean something to those 2 people, if not, then don't get married and make yourself look like a fool. It is part of a person's character and who they are when they break any vow! Anyone in that position should realize going in that they are being held to a higher standard then the ordinary person. Your life is an open book regardless of how much privacy you want, it doesn't work that way. You should be aware that everything you do or say is going to be reported on mostly with today's day and age of tech toys and media cameras around each and every corner. If that person doesn't like that lifestyle then get the heck out and do something else. If you chose to stay in and get all the perks and power then don't complain and cry foul when caught.......you should know the score going in and then decide what you want........that should be with any job a person takes regardless of the job.
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  #444  
Old 06-15-2014, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
I agree 100% with Duc et Pair.

Juan Carlos was a wonderful King at a time when it was crucial for Spain to have such a monarch. He accomplished far more good than bad. It's a shame that people are going to judge his entire reign on the last few disastrous years of it. J-C deserves better.

Finally, I have said this before. I don't care if he violated his marriage vows. That information is quite simply not the business of the public. The public is not part of the marital contract, and this goes for any leader. It's between the two people who made vows.

I think this obsession that elected leaders and even non-elected ones must be squeaking clean morally will do, and has already done, incalculable damage as far as quality of the people who are choosing to enter public service.

It's almost as if the public would welcome mediocre or sub par leadership... as long as the person doesn't cheat!
It is simply a matter of integrity. Integrity is not a spectator sport but an indication of the moral compass someone is living by. Any private person may live their lives as they please, at least as far as the general population. But for anyone representing the population in any way have to live up to a higher standard, if not say no thanks to the special perks and privileges and simply live as a private individual.
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  #445  
Old 06-15-2014, 02:30 AM
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My concern is this (mostly) American obsession with the sex lives of public figures. A person can cheat on their income taxes. Exploit their employees. Lie, manipulate and engage in all manner of seedy activities.

But all bets are off if they are not faithful to their spouses??

Two-thirds of the most influential men and women in history fail to meet the standard of "integrity" if that is the only measure of it.

America would not have had the leadership of Franklin Roosevelt during WWII or Dwight Eisenhower for that matter. Charles Lindbergh would have been a pariah rather than the great hero he is considered today. Martin Luther King Jr. The Kennedy brothers(of course) and Ronald Reagan all engaged in extra-marital sexual activities that the public was not privy to at the time. The list is endless.

SELizabeth, do you really believe America and the world would have been better served by knowing about the sex lives of these men? Do you grevinnan? If so, in what way? How would a non-adulterous FDR have influenced history in a better way than he did?

Why are the intimate details of these peoples' marriages your business or mine?

Integrity is indeed important when it comes to people who are in a position of public trust. It is the cornerstone of what makes an ideal public servant. But the entire sum of a person's life has to be considered. It doesn't begin and end with a person's bedroom.

This demand for moral perfection in leaders is a relatively new phenomenon, but has it given us better public servants and role models today than the ones we had 50-100 years ago, for example?
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  #446  
Old 06-15-2014, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23
;1676297]My concern is this (mostly) American obsession with the sex lives of public figures. A person can cheat on their income taxes. Exploit their employees. Lie, manipulate and engage in all manner of seedy activities.

But all bets are off if they are not faithful to their spouses??

Two-thirds of the most influential men and women in history fail to meet the standard of "integrity" if that is the only measure of it.

America would not have had the leadership of Franklin Roosevelt during WWII or Dwight Eisenhower for that matter. Charles Lindbergh would have been a pariah rather than the great hero he is considered today. Martin Luther King Jr. The Kennedy brothers(of course) and Ronald Reagan all engaged in extra-marital sexual activities that the public was not privy to at the time. The list is endless.

SELizabeth, do you really believe America and the world would have been better served by knowing about the sex lives of these men? Do you grevinnan? If so, in what way? How would a non-adulterous FDR have influenced history in a better way than he did?

Why are the intimate details of these people's marriages your business or mine?

Integrity is indeed important when it comes to people who are in a position of public trust. But the entire sum of a person's life has to be considered. It doesn't begin and end with a person's bedroom.

This demand for moral perfection in leaders is a relatively new phenomenon, but has it given us better public servants and role models?
In the first part that I highlighted, no, none of those are okay in my book, everything that you mentioned is part of that person's character including cheating on your spouse. For me it all boils down to the entire character of a person because in a position like that you have to be above board, above reproach if you are going to work for the people, that should be a given, it should be written in stone and signed sealed and delivered to the government if need be...........I don't care what anyone does in their bedroom as long as it's doesn't hurt anyone/any country or their spouse. If someone is honest but their cheating instead of hiding it, that says *Hey, at least he is honest and admitted it where as hiding it, says what else is there to hide. There is something to be said for telling the truth regardless of what it is, in general people will accept the truth when anything is admitted in public rather then knowing someone lied. He might have started out being a really good man/king and in the end I think all the power, money, position and feeling he could get away with anything regardless of whom he hurt, this sense of entitlement did him in and that is where he made his mistakes. No body on this earth and I speak for myself, is better then me and I am no better then anybody except for those that do bodly (sp) harm to a child or animal. Maybe I have too high of a standard for people in these positions, yet they should be aware of what their decisions will cost them. And look at the hurt/pain and unhappiness he has caused his family and mostly his wife, how she can stand beside him is beyond me........years if not decades of living like that and for what? Just to get some sexual pleasure and when it's all done and over with, then what do you have.......nothing but hurting your family. To me that is not worth it at all. Sorry for the rant, but he did himself in all by his ego and selfishness and he has no body to blame but himself. I say good by to him and hope never to see him again. *Respect is not a given in life just because a person has money, position, power nor title, respect is given only by how you treat others.*
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  #447  
Old 06-15-2014, 03:02 AM
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Juan Carlos's betrayal of his marriage vows hurt no one except his wife and ultimately himself. Any anger, any forgiveness, any indifference...is the right of Queen Sofia and no one else. It did not affect the destiny of Spain for better or worse. If it had stayed a secret for 100 years no one would have been the wiser.

There is no way I am going to label him a failure as a monarch and as a human being because he has serious moral failings and made mistakes, especially when those mistakes are measured against the considerable accomplishments of his entire life and reign.

In the end, only God can judge Juan-Carlos.
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  #448  
Old 06-15-2014, 03:25 AM
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Juan Carlos's betrayal of his marriage vows hurt no one except his wife and ultimately himself. Any anger, any forgiveness, any indifference...is the right of Queen Sofia and no one else. It did not affect the destiny of Spain for better or worse. If it had stayed a secret for 100 years no one would have been the wiser.

There is no way I am going to label him a failure as a monarch and as a human being because he has serious moral failings and made mistakes, especially when those mistakes are measured against the considerable accomplishments of his entire life and reign.

In the end, only God can judge Juan-Carlos.
I understand your reasoning regarding JC and that is okay as we all can't and shouldn't think alike, what a very boring world it would be then. And I better then anybody knows what it feels like to make huge mistakes and pay the price for them as he will also. And yes only God can judge him yet we humans sometimes are judges of other humans when we put them on a petal stool and then think they can do no wrong and whoa and beyond they do........
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  #449  
Old 06-15-2014, 04:49 AM
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Thanks SElizabeth, but I never had Juan Carlos on a pedestal.I have been a student of European royalty since I was a child and I have always known that Juan Carlos, as a member of my parent's generation, had behaviors and an attitude perfectly in keeping with both his social class and his era. Times have changed. El Rey did not change with them. And he is sadly paying the price.

Still, that does not make him a bad king. Without this man on the throne in 1980-1981 it is very possible that Spain would have fallen to a military coup/dictatorship. He does love Spain, and he displayed courage and leadership during that crisis. I think that is more important than the fact that he had mistresses.
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  #450  
Old 06-15-2014, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Juan Carlos's betrayal of his marriage vows hurt no one except his wife and ultimately himself. Any anger, any forgiveness, any indifference...is the right of Queen Sofia and no one else. It did not affect the destiny of Spain for better or worse. If it had stayed a secret for 100 years no one would have been the wiser.

There is no way I am going to label him a failure as a monarch and as a human being because he has serious moral failings and made mistakes, especially when those mistakes are measured against the considerable accomplishments of his entire life and reign.

In the end, only God can judge Juan-Carlos.
That last sentence certainly is a very profound insight.
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  #451  
Old 06-15-2014, 12:55 PM
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Still, that does not make him a bad king. Without this man on the throne in 1980-1981 it is very possible that Spain would have fallen to a military coup/dictatorship. He does love Spain, and he displayed courage and leadership during that crisis. I think that is more important than the fact that he had mistresses.
I understand exactly what you are saying as I am a member of JC generation and the American equivalent of his class at one time. His prior life style WAS looked at as acceptable by society in the 40, 50, 60. But, once "woman's lib" started to have power, sadly for men, they no longer "got away" with sharing a bit. Trust was still a large part of marriage and adultery murders trust. Then courts changed and men paid dearly. Many has found that out the hard way. And let us face it, it is the power and wealth that the mistresses go for. Plus in today's social media times, almost nothing is secret. If a thing IS, the entire world will know.

I believe he was a very good king and loved his country and did a lot for his citizens. But for the next few years only the scandals of his and daughter's will be remembered with glee by most. Not fair always, but true.

The shame of all this is that JC's ego caused him to feel that he could do anything he wanted and that the people would always look the other way because he was too important to the country. His citizens should always realize if it wasn't for him Spain would be in dictatorship. I'm sure the poor man realizes now that is not true because times have changed and no one can do exactly what they always want. His biggest problem was all the "royal haters" of Spain that went out of their way to find scandals that involved the King. And, there were a few. I personally feel that his daughter and son-in-law's inventive bookkeeping really is what caused most of this. JMHO

What a sorrow he must have felt when it finally dawned on him. To that extent, I feel very sorry for him. I'm sure he was confused and annoyed. But, I feel much worse for his lovely wife having to live through all his adulteries and other scandals showing only an outward calm while either mad or hurt inside. I hope now she is able to come into her own and finally enjoy a self fulfilling life. She, in all this, has nothing to be ashamed of, ever.
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  #452  
Old 06-15-2014, 01:55 PM
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You were right Duke!There is more to King Juan Carlos' abdication than meets the eye! Why would he continue to need total legal protection after he has abdicated?
Government seeking total legal protection for Juan Carlos after crown handover | In English | EL PAÍS
Obviously he will keep immunity for the time that Covers his reign which is what matters.
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  #453  
Old 06-15-2014, 02:34 PM
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When it comes to assessing Juan Carlos's reign, I agree that in his successful efforts to steer Spain towards democracy and freedom, he will be well remembered by history.

Unfortunately, as a monarchist, one of the primary responsibilities of any sovereign is to hand on to the next generation a crown that is strong and stable. JC is not doing that for reasons that are mainly of his own making. He gives to Felipe an institution that is tarnished and scarred. It remains to be seen if the new King can undo that but it most certainly is not going to be easy. For one thing, the Inaki/Cristina scandal doesn't go away, it now becomes Felipe's problem. He has been able to keep clear of it until now, but that won't be possible anymore.

I don't envy him his task although I wish him every success.
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  #454  
Old 06-15-2014, 02:45 PM
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I understand exactly what you are saying as I am a member of JC generation and the American equivalent of his class at one time. His prior life style WAS looked at as acceptable by society in the 40, 50, 60. But, once "woman's lib" started to have power, sadly for men, they no longer "got away" with sharing a bit. Trust was still a large part of marriage and adultery murders trust. Then courts changed and men paid dearly. Many has found that out the hard way. And let us face it, it is the power and wealth that the mistresses go for. Plus in today's social media times, almost nothing is secret. If a thing IS, the entire world will know.

I believe he was a very good king and loved his country and did a lot for his citizens. But for the next few years only the scandals of his and daughter's will be remembered with glee by most. Not fair always, but true.

The shame of all this is that JC's ego caused him to feel that he could do anything he wanted and that the people would always look the other way because he was too important to the country. His citizens should always realize if it wasn't for him Spain would be in dictatorship. I'm sure the poor man realizes now that is not true because times have changed and no one can do exactly what they always want. His biggest problem was all the "royal haters" of Spain that went out of their way to find scandals that involved the King. And, there were a few. I personally feel that his daughter and son-in-law's inventive bookkeeping really is what caused most of this. JMHO

What a sorrow he must have felt when it finally dawned on him. To that extent, I feel very sorry for him. I'm sure he was confused and annoyed. But, I feel much worse for his lovely wife having to live through all his adulteries and other scandals showing only an outward calm while either mad or hurt inside. I hope now she is able to come into her own and finally enjoy a self fulfilling life. She, in all this, has nothing to be ashamed of, ever.
You just put into words all the words that I couldn't come up with...your comment is the best on this man!
I also grew up when men where treated like divine human beings and women like garbage and that to this day has been a big part of my character as I think all people should be treated equal. That attitude about men can do no wrong is still to some extend around today and it had better not cross my path.
As for today's social media, if anyone is in any position to be an influence on the world/country/people as a whole or whatever, you had better be aware there are cameras and phones all over the place.........nothing is scared anymore in that regards......absoutely nothing!
Yes his daughter has the very same attitude as her father, *nothing can touch me, I am entitled to anything I want and can do anything I want to do*, yes I am sure it played a big part in his decision to leave the throne and she should really take a good look at her actions and attitude for what they have done to her family and mostly her children who will have to be part of it for the rest of their lives.
I have deep feeling for Queen Sophia, she has put on such a strong face through the decades and been a stable lady amongst this family. She has shown grace and dignity through out her life and I pray she now finds some peace and joy in her life with all her grandchildren whom it is clear she dearly loves.
Only time will judge this man and if he has any decent feelings at all, then he will do the right thing finally for his family.
No one is above the law for me, so whatever is still going down in the courts over the time of his reign that he wants to be protected from, that in itself should say it a lot . I don't hate the man, I just have no respect for him............money, position, power and his title all went to his head and he is now paying the price.
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Old 06-15-2014, 02:56 PM
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[I personally feel that his daughter and son-in-law's inventive bookkeeping really is what caused most of this. JMHO]//quote Winnie

I agree. For me, the Inaki/Cristina scandal is what is far more offensive and damaging than J-C's zipper adventures. Why? Because the Inaki/Cristina scandal directly impacts the Spanish people. It was their money that was being stolen and misused. It directly impacts them. J-C's private life, not so much.

The following statement sums up my feelings on the situation in Spain to perfection:

[Unfortunately, as a monarchist, one of the primary responsibilities of any sovereign is to hand on to the next generation a crown that is strong and stable. JC is not doing that for reasons that are mainly of his own making. He gives to Felipe an institution that is tarnished and scarred. It remains to be seen if the new King can undo that but it most certainly is not going to be easy. For one thing, the Inaki/Cristina scandal doesn't go away, it now becomes Felipe's problem. He has been able to keep clear of it until now, but that won't be possible anymore]// quote PetticoatLane
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  #456  
Old 06-15-2014, 04:18 PM
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Very insightful comment on the ending of JC and what his son now has to deal with. I really like PF/PL, they seem like such decent people, they show that they care deeply for the people, they aren't afraid to show they care about each other. I wish them the very best, it is going to be hard for them and I believe with his wife by his side he will pull through this, seems to me she is one very strong intelligent woman who is nobody's fool. I really like her and her husband. She has shown that she sticks to her opinion when she has nothing to do with Cristina and her husband. I hope that she,Cristina, will fade into the background and not cause them problems now.
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Old 06-15-2014, 04:59 PM
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[....]
Unfortunately, as a monarchist, one of the primary responsibilities of any sovereign is to hand on to the next generation a crown that is strong and stable. JC is not doing that for reasons that are mainly of his own making. He gives to Felipe an institution that is tarnished and scarred. [....]
All Spanish Institutions suffer under the lowest unpopularity ever, from the politicians to the Church, from the banks to the King, etc. With or without the problems around Doña Cristina, the monarchy would have beeen "tarnished" anyway. It is clear that in nations where everyone is happy, where the economy is booming and where prospects are bright, the future of the monarchy there is equally great, see Liechtenstein, see Monaco, see Luxembourg.

Note that King George VI took over the Crown in tumultuous circumstances, note that Queen Beatrix was invested amidst the most violent street riots ever seen in Amsterdam. These abdications gave the monarchy a new elan, despite the shaky starts. In the decade of the Annus Horribilis and the death of Diana, Princess of Wales the UK monarchy suffered severe blows as well. They recovered quite spectacularly. I think the Spanish monarchy is flexible enough for a renaissance.
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Old 06-15-2014, 05:58 PM
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Until the Inaki and elephant hunting debacles, the monarchy was the most popular institution in Spain. Now, even with all the social, economic and political scandals suffered by other institutions, it's (I think), only 5th on the list. Had JC been more self-aware and careful, the monarchy could be benefitting from the unpopularity of other institutions. Instead, the opposite has happened.

Making comparisons across different countries is very difficult. The Edward VIII abdication is an exceptional moment in our history, very different to the other abdications we're talking about.

In the case of the UK and the Netherlands, there's more scope for them to have their difficult moments and bounce back. In Spain, this monarchy is so young that it just doesn't have the kind of deep roots that the others do. In the case of the Netherlands or Belgium, the abdications were done from a position of relative strength, Spain doesn't have that luxury. I hope they enjoy a renaissance, I really do. But it's going to be a difficult task.
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:13 AM
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June 18- King Juan Carlos signs abdication law

- The event will be held in the Hall of Columns of the Royal Palace at 18:00

- Queen Sofía, Prince and Princess of Asturias, infanta Leonor, infanta Sofía, infanta Elena, infanta Pilar and infanta Margarita will attend.

- About 160 guests: High Authorities of State, former presidents of Government, dean of the Diplomatic Corps,political and military authorities, "parents" of the Constitution, spanish Knights of the Order of the Golden Fleece, board member of the Greatness and representatives of the Royal "Maestranzas".

- King Juan Carlos and Mariano Rajoy, Prime Minister, will sign the law

- King Juan Carlos will not deliver a speech

June 19

- King Juan Carlos will impose his son the sash of the Captain General of the Armies, in a solemn military ceremony at Zarzuela Palace.

- Members of the Royal Family, the family of the King and Letizia´s family will attend the proclamation in Congress.

- King Felipe and his family will tour the streets in a Rolls Royce, probably covered, for safety reasons.

- King Felipe, Queen Letizia, Princess of Asturias, Infanta Sofia, King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia will greet from the balcony of the Royal Palace

- King Felipe and Queen Letizia will host a reception for 2,000 guests, officials and representatives of various sectors of Spanish society.

El Rey no hablará en el acto de sanción de la ley de su abdicación

Los nuevos reyes saludarán uno a uno a los 2.000 invitados en el Palacio Real - La Razón digital

Felipe VI ofrecerá una recepción para 2.000 invitados tras su proclamación como rey - Noticias de España

Zarzuela se inclina por que los nuevos reyes recorran en coche cubierto el centro de Madrid
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:45 AM
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thank you Lula
for keeping us informed
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