The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > Dutch Royals > Abdication & Inauguration 2013

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #41  
Old 02-19-2013, 05:34 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Robijn View Post
Question 1:

Titles in the Netherlands are only automatic for the King (Queen), a former King of Queen, and the heir to the throne, as well as their respective spouses. In order to limit the amount of Princes and Princess, it was decided that the children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien were to be Count or Countess of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer or Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. This was established at the time of their engagement/wedding.

The children of Princess Margriet were born in a different time. It is not relevant for the children of Constantijn.
...
A question about membership in the Dutch Royal House. I noticed that while Constantijn and Laurentien's children are still in the Line of Succession, they are no longer members of the Royal House. Is there any particular reason for that? And, since they are no longer members of the Royal House and never held Princely titles, could they (in theory) be made Prince/Princesses of Orang-Nassau?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 02-20-2013, 05:05 PM
Princess Robijn's Avatar
Super Moderator
Blog Editor
Picture of the Month Representative - Denmark
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: -, Netherlands
Posts: 2,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
A question about membership in the Dutch Royal House. I noticed that while Constantijn and Laurentien's children are still in the Line of Succession, they are no longer members of the Royal House. Is there any particular reason for that? And, since they are no longer members of the Royal House and never held Princely titles, could they (in theory) be made Prince/Princesses of Orang-Nassau?
It's called the principle of proximity of blood. In this case it means that only those within three degrees of kinship can succeed and that only those within two degrees of kinship are members of the Royal House. (Of course this also includes his or her spouse.)

Technically, the Queen can make them Princesses and Prince now (Article 9.2*), or King Willem-Alexander can make them Princesses and Prince within 3 months after becoming King. Of course it won't be an issue, because if the Queen wanted them to be Prince or Princess, she would have arranged it before the wedding of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien.

If the Queen would choose to create them Princesses and Prince, IMO it would have to be confirmed by King Willem-Alexander as they will no longer be part of the Royal House after the abdication of Queen Beatrix. But I could be wrong about the need for confirmation. It's from the same law I mentioned HERE.** Within 3 months after loosing the right to be part of the Royal House, it has to be decided if the person it's about will have the personal title of Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau. The law does not specify as to why a member of the Royal family loses his or her membership of the Royal House. (Article 9.3*)

The title Count of Orange-Nassau (& Jonkheer van Amsberg) is hereditary for the male line though.

* wetten.nl - Wet- en regelgeving - Wet lidmaatschap koninklijk huis - BWBR0013729 -- Google Translation
** Google Translation lists those eligible for the personal title of Prince or Princess of Orange-Nassau as members of the Royal family. This is incorrect. The correct translation of the Dutch "Koninklijk Huis" is Royal House.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 02-21-2013, 03:01 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425


Thank you for the excellent explanation, Princess Robijn!
I was aware of three degrees of kinship in regards to the succession but not two degrees of kinship in regards to membership in the Royal House.

To be honest though I still don't see why Constantijn's children won't be members of the House though. Aren't they within two degrees of kinship to Willem-Alexander? And if they aren't, how is Princess Margriet eligible to remain a member of the Royal House?

Willem-Alexander -> Prince Constantijn -> Constantijn's children
Willem-Alexander -> Queen Beatrix -> Princess Margriet
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 02-21-2013, 04:33 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425

That is what confuses me. By an Act of Parliament, the members of the Royal House are:
- The Monarch and his/her spouse
- The former Monarch (who abdicated) and his/her spouse
- The members of the Royal Family in the Line of Succession and their spouses.

Maurits and Bernhard are currently in the Line of Succession and members of the Royal House. They will cease to be in the succession line upon Willem-Alexander's accession and will also automatically lose membership of the Royal House. Princess Margriet is and will remain both in the Line of Succession and member of the Royal House. So far everything is clear. But then Prince Constantijn's children will lose their membership in the Royal House upon Willem-Alexander's accession, even though they will remain in the Line of Succession. I just don't see the logic behind that.


Just for the record, I take the information Constantijn's children will cease to be members of the Royal House directly from the official website:
Quote:
From that moment on, under the Membership of the Royal House Act, the children of Princess Margriet and Professor Pieter van Vollenhoven and the children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien will cease to be members of the Royal House
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 02-21-2013, 07:35 AM
Princess Robijn's Avatar
Super Moderator
Blog Editor
Picture of the Month Representative - Denmark
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: -, Netherlands
Posts: 2,556


It's 2 different issues.

2 degrees of Kinships means the following in the case of Prince Constantijn's children:
Eloise, Claus-Casimir & Leonore -> Constantijn (1 degree) -> Beatrix (2 degrees) -> Willem-Alexander (3 degrees)

This means they will still be in line of succession to the throne (3 degrees of Kinship), but won't be members of the Royal House. (2 degrees)

As for Margriet and her oldest two sons. Article 3.1 from the Wet lidmaatschap Koninklijk Huis (link above) states that everyone who was an adult at the effective date of the Act (as well as their respective spouses) would remain a part of the Royal House as long as they were in line of succession. Therefor, Princess Margriet and her sons kept their membership of the Royal House with the Act of 2002. (With Prince Pieter-Christiaan and Prince Floris losing their memberships later on, because they didn't ask permission for their respective marriages.) Princess Margriet will remain in line of succession and therefor will also remain a member of the Royal House and Princes Maurits and Bernhard, no longer in line to the throne, will loose their membership of the Royal House.

I do agree with you (Artemisia) though. I see no logic in someone being in line of succession, but not a member of the Royal House. It's not like it's the line of succession to the British throne.

However, membership of the Royal House CAN be given by Royal Degree, providing he or she is in line of succession. (Membership can also be given to spouses) Article 4. This does need to be approved by the Raad van State (= Council of State)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

That is what confuses me. By an Act of Parliament, the members of the Royal House are:
- The members of the Royal Family in the Line of Succession and their spouses.
This is incorrect, it states:
Those who are in line of succession [and spouses], provided that they are not further then 2 degrees Kinship [apart from the King*]

* is insinuated, but not actually stated in Article 1a.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 02-21-2013, 08:38 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425

That makes sense now. Once more, thank you very much for the detailed explanation.
I have to say though it would have been more logical to apply the same three degrees of kinship rule to inclusion in both the Line of Succession and the Royal House.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 02-21-2013, 11:30 AM
Princess Robijn's Avatar
Super Moderator
Blog Editor
Picture of the Month Representative - Denmark
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: -, Netherlands
Posts: 2,556
You're welcome
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 03-06-2013, 04:44 PM
castell's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: -, Germany
Posts: 26
Will Maxima be granted the Privilège du Blanc (to wear white) when she meets the Pope as a Catholic Queen? Like Queen Sofia or Queen Paola?

Recently Charlene of Monaco wore white when she met Pope Benedict, altough Grace always wore black when she met the Pope.
The Vatican's Press office has confirmed in its statement that Charlene was allowed to wear white, which means that the Privilege of White was extended to her too.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 03-06-2013, 04:52 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425

Highly unlikely.
The privilège du blanc only extends to female Catholic Monarchs or wives of Catholic Monarchs.

Although Maxima herself remains a Catholic, her husband will not be a Catholic Monarch so the privilege should not be granted to her. Charlene is a wife of a Catholic Sovereign (not a King but a Sovereign Prince) and as such it wasn't as much breaking as stretching the rule to grant her the privilège du blanc.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 03-28-2013, 08:13 AM
cepe's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,278
I'm not sure if this is the right thread, so please move if I've made a mistake.

Queen Beatrix has many honours, including foreign ones such as the Order of the Garter and the Order of the Golden Fleece. Does she keep them once she has abdicated? I'm assuming she does.
__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 03-28-2013, 08:22 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,425

Those honours were bestowed upon Beatrix personally (and not just in her capacity as a Monarch) so she will most certainly keep all of them, including Order of the Garter, Order of St. Olav, Royal Victorian Order, Order of the Elephant, and others.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 04-13-2013, 06:49 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 613
What will Princess Maxima's title be? Queen Maxima?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 04-13-2013, 07:09 PM
kathia_sophia's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: South, Portugal
Posts: 1,651
Yes, in less than 3 weeks she will be HM Queen Maxima.
__________________
♫A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams.♥
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 04-15-2013, 04:29 PM
imojeen's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: .., Kenya
Posts: 143
will queen beatrix be named as princess or dowager queen after abdication?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 04-15-2013, 04:31 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 17,076
Quote:
Originally Posted by imojeen View Post
will queen beatrix be named as princess or dowager queen after abdication?
Princess Beatrix.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 04-16-2013, 07:56 AM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 27
In the Netherlands it´s tradition, the queen will named after her abdication princess. Look also to the past: After her abdication In 1948 Queen Wilhelmina was named Princess Wilhelmina and in 1980 Queen Juliana´s title after abdication was Princess. Currently now they rest in the Royal tomb as Queen. I think Emma ( the mother of Wilhelmina) was the only one in the Dutch Royal History who has the title Queen Mother.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 04-17-2013, 04:56 AM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 2,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
In the Netherlands it´s tradition, the queen will named after her abdication princess. Look also to the past: After her abdication In 1948 Queen Wilhelmina was named Princess Wilhelmina and in 1980 Queen Juliana´s title after abdication was Princess. Currently now they rest in the Royal tomb as Queen. I think Emma ( the mother of Wilhelmina) was the only one in the Dutch Royal History who has the title Queen Mother.
What about Queen Anna Pavlovna?. She remained Queen after the death of her husband but was she also known as Queen Mother?
__________________
Stefan

Royal Travel and Events

Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 04-17-2013, 06:24 AM
lucien's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 6,188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
What about Queen Anna Pavlovna?. She remained Queen after the death of her husband but was she also known as Queen Mother?
No,this daughter of Tsar Paul was not known as Queen Mother,that only happened with Queen Mother Emma,or Queen Regent..as that was a title she was known by as well.After her,starting with Queen Wilhelmina,they reverted to the title Princess as to emphasize that for the Constitution the Monarch is "dead" immediatly after the Abdication.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 05-21-2013, 04:50 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Port Perry, Canada
Posts: 6
A slightly different, but related query, please. How was precedence determined for the seating arrangements in the Nieuwe Kerke, and elsewhere during the enthronement events? For instance, how would it be decided where HRH The Prince of Wales should be seated, in contrast with (for example) Albert II of Monaco?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 05-21-2013, 04:57 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 17,076
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xigua View Post
A slightly different, but related query, please. How was precedence determined for the seating arrangements in the Nieuwe Kerke, and elsewhere during the enthronement events? For instance, how would it be decided where HRH The Prince of Wales should be seated, in contrast with (for example) Albert II of Monaco?
Here's a picture of the event which shows who sat where;
General View During The Inauguration Ceremony Of King
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/...hoto/167806278
__________________

__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
abdication, beatrix, catharina-amalia, inauguration, king, maxima, names, queen, queen beatrix, succession, titles, willem-alexander


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Abdication Beatrix & Inauguration Willem-Alexander: Where to Watch Live (TV & Online) Marengo Abdication & Inauguration 2013 52 05-02-2013 07:06 AM
Abdication of Beatrix & Inauguration of WA: Royals Arriving, Sightseeing and Leaving Princess Robijn Abdication & Inauguration 2013 56 05-02-2013 02:13 AM
Abdication of Beatrix and Inauguration of Willem-Alexander: Confirmed Guests Princess Robijn Abdication & Inauguration 2013 10 04-28-2013 04:58 PM
Queen Beatrix Announces Abdication; January 28, 2013 Marengo Abdication & Inauguration 2013 391 04-16-2013 09:26 AM
Program of the Abdication of Queen Beatrix and Inauguration of King Willem-Alexander Princess Robijn Abdication & Inauguration 2013 4 03-19-2013 06:41 AM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth camilla charlene chris o'neill crown prince felipe crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary current events danish royals diana duchess of cambridge fashion dutch royal history engagement fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri infanta cristina infanta elena infanta leonor infanta sofia king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander olympic games ottoman palace pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince felix prince floris princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marie princess marilene princess mary princess of asturias queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit visit wedding william winter olympics 2014


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:14 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]