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  #21  
Old 12-04-2015, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Based on the old patrilineal concept of family, Madeleine would be the one who actually joined Christopher's family when they married, and not the other way around. However, that is not how it works with marriages into royal families these days as seen by the fact that Madeleine's children, like Estelle, Queen Beatrix's sons, or Queen Elizabeth II's children, do not use their father's last name and are instead considered members of the Royal House.

Second, I disagree with your assessment that a person who marries into a royal family and becomes a full-time royal is a "free loader". Royals are not celebrities or random "rich people" as some Americans often wrongly assume. Instead, they are public servants whose job is to support the monarch in his/her service to the country. A person like Maxima or Mary who gives up his/her private life to be in the service of a country where he/she was not even born should be praised, and not criticized. In fact, I respect that Chris chose to opt out of royal life, but I would also respect and praise him if he had chosen instead to serve the people of Sweden as Daniel and Sofia did.
First let's clarify something, I Never said any of those ladies that you mentioned were ^free loaders^ and I do think that some royals take advantage of being in a royal family for not all are as committed to the job as some are.

Even though the children do not use the last name of their father in legal terms, make no mistake that the children know who their father is and always will be. You don't need to have a name attached to you to know who raises, loves, nurtures and cherishes you as a child. Chris will always be their father and even though they have a title, well as we see in life, titles come and go, not saying that their will in time. They can and will be members of the royal family always yet they will never assume the position that Princess Estelle does and so should they chose at some point in their lives to live their lives outside of the media circus for they will most surly learn all about that as they get older, then more power to them.
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  #22  
Old 12-05-2015, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by SnowBirds View Post
Does she need or must she come right out and spell in some form that "I Princess Madeleine chose to live here in London (Or anywhere for that matter) so that very busy body then knows her business? I would hope not, for my choices are mine as her's should be her's. What does it matter to anyone in this entire world where she lives? And why the attacks on her is amazing for we really don't personally know her , do we?
The problem is, in the eyes of many, that she signed "permanent" when she, Christopher and the family relocated to Sweden. That "permanent" wasn't so permanent after all since they now live in London.
Apparently their (or her mind, who knows) minds changed afterwards, but it gives out conflicting messages.
The Swedes might have felt "now we have our Princess Madeleine back" and then she left the country again... it may have given a feeling of abandonment. She has a duty to serve Sweden (Princess of Sweden), and only one sentence "I signed permanent because that is what we thought at the time, but on due consideration it's better for us as a family and Christopher's business to live in London" or something like that. It wouldn't give anything away about her husband's private position and she would have given out that little bit of clarity.
Make sure the Swedes know what they can expect of you, you've known the system all your life.

I think, for a public person -which she is considering her position and titles that are part of that position- she is too vague. Trying too much to adjust to/be a part of her husband's position and place in life -to which he is entitled because he is a private person- which would only really have been possible had she gone through life as plain Mrs. O'Neill.
But then there would be the issue of the line of succession, which is also up for debate now and only time will tell when Princess Leonore turns six years old (or was it five?).

Her position does not really mingle well with his position and up to now they have still not found the right way to balance these differences. The press department of the palace has also not helped their cause.
After all these years, do the Swedes know what Madeleine really is about? Even her brother has a better profile.

There is no one in Royal Europe whose example they could take on.
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  #23  
Old 12-05-2015, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
The problem is, in the eyes of many, that she signed "permanent" when she, Christopher and the family relocated to Sweden. That "permanent" wasn't so permanent after all since they now live in London.
Apparently their (or her mind, who knows) minds changed afterwards, but it gives out conflicting messages.
The Swedes might have felt "now we have our Princess Madeleine back" and then she left the country again... it may have given a feeling of abandonment. She has a duty to serve Sweden (Princess of Sweden), and only one sentence "I signed permanent because that is what we thought at the time, but on due consideration it's better for us as a family and Christopher's business to live in London" or something like that. It wouldn't give anything away about her husband's private position and she would have given out that little bit of clarity.
Make sure the Swedes know what they can expect of you, you've known the system all your life.

I think, for a public person -which she is considering her position and titles that are part of that position- she is too vague. Trying too much to adjust to/be a part of her husband's position and place in life -to which he is entitled because he is a private person- which would only really have been possible had she gone through life as plain Mrs. O'Neill.
But then there would be the issue of the line of succession, which is also up for debate now and only time will tell when Princess Leonore turns six years old (or was it five?).

Her position does not really mingle well with his position and up to now they have still not found the right way to balance these differences. The press department of the palace has also not helped their cause.
After all these years, do the Swedes know what Madeleine really is about? Even her brother has a better profile.

There is no one in Royal Europe whose example they could take on.
Actually there is one Royalty one has done and I believe it is Princess Martha Louise of Norway (Crown Prince Haakon'so elder sister) she seems to have ask permission to remove her title to loosen her royal connection from her business life but she still takes care of her patronage as per seen in the recent weeks from the Norwegian Royal courts.
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  #24  
Old 12-05-2015, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TheRoyalCourtisane View Post
Actually there is one Royalty one has done and I believe it is Princess Martha Louise of Norway (Crown Prince Haakon'so elder sister) she seems to have ask permission to remove her title to loosen her royal connection from her business life but she still takes care of her patronage as per seen in the recent weeks from the Norwegian Royal courts.
I see that I phrased that a bit awkward. I meant that there is no precedence in Royal Europe for what Madeleine and Christopher have done.
Indeed the example they could have followed is that of Princess Märtha Louise and Ari Behn - but I suspect that Madeleine is more keen on being a HRH than Märtha Louise was.
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  #25  
Old 12-05-2015, 01:04 PM
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... I suspect it was the King who wished for Madleine and her kids to be titled and stay in line to the throne - as long as CP wasn't married and Victoria has only Estelle, this is the save thing to do... probably he remembers too well, when he was the only heir to the throne ... that was a bit a thin line.
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  #26  
Old 12-05-2015, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
I see that I phrased that a bit awkward. I meant that there is no precedence in Royal Europe for what Madeleine and Christopher have done.
Indeed the example they could have followed is that of Princess Märtha Louise and Ari Behn - but I suspect that Madeleine is more keen on being a HRH than Märtha Louise was.
That I didn't read well. But yes indeed she could have ask Martha Louise. I mean Martha still has her patronages even without being in Norway but I am quite still confused on Madeleine's except her work on Childhood what else does she do?
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  #27  
Old 12-05-2015, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Nice Nofret View Post
... I suspect it was the King who wished for Madleine and her kids to be titled and stay in line to the throne - as long as CP wasn't married and Victoria has only Estelle, this is the save thing to do... probably he remembers too well, when he was the only heir to the throne ... that was a bit a thin line.
OK now I see it from his Majesty'so point of view at that time of Leonore and Nicholas birth but with the Crown Princess and Princess Sofia'so pregnancy how will that go.
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  #28  
Old 12-05-2015, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Nice Nofret View Post
... I suspect it was the King who wished for Madleine and her kids to be titled and stay in line to the throne - as long as CP wasn't married and Victoria has only Estelle, this is the save thing to do... probably he remembers too well, when he was the only heir to the throne ... that was a bit a thin line.
From the King's viewpoint I understand it, but you say it yourself. Victoria already had Estelle. When Princess Märtha Louise had Maud Angelica, her brother didn't even have children yet thus the Norwegian line of succession was not secured at all in that respect.
Princess Märtha Louise and Ari Behn's daughters are all three in the line of succession - but they don't have a title. That is the difference.

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Originally Posted by TheRoyalCourtisane View Post
OK now I see it from his Majesty'so point of view at that time of Leonore and Nicholas birth but with the Crown Princess and Princess Sofia'so pregnancy how will that go.
I think that time will only arrive when Princess Leonore is to start school.
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  #29  
Old 12-05-2015, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SnowBirds View Post
I think that when 2 people marry they are joining the 2 families together, it isn't one joins and the other doesn't join regardless of the money, power or titles of the families involved. Chris is an outsider in a sense, he likes being his own person, he does not follow a crowd, group, or family. He can and has cooperated with the royal family by joining Princess Madeleine at many events and he still has maintained his own identity as to who he is. He likes working for himself, supporting himself and his family which says alot about his integrity and morals. He is not a free loader at all like some in royal families appear to be (not naming names). I give praise to this man, he should be respected for his own choices and decisions for they have hurt nobody yet many here and in the media criticize him for being his own person, that is the price he pays for being an individual in his own right and that is very sad. People should not expect him to jump up and down and do as they say just to please them, we all can't be followers or leaders, some like to be their own individual person. He chose not to have a royal title and not be an consort and that should not be expected of him to do so. I have more respect for him in his choices then if he had just cut ribbons and gone to events which can be a very boring way to live.
My feelings are not as strong as yours but I actually agree with this more than I disagree. Chris may be his own man but it looks like he has made conciliations to the Swedish Royal Family/his wife's family with his children carrying the surname Bernadotte being a major one.

I don't think that Chris has deviated much from the expectations set when he and Madeleine got married and when he has it's been to participate in SRF events and other conciliations to the SRF, and actually IMO he has exceeded expectations. Obviously Chris was not the mastermind behind his children getting titles and duchies and being surnamed Bernadotte, and IMO if both he and Madeleine were opposed, none of those things would have happened, so either he is OK with it or is giving in to his wife (and her family's) wishes.
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  #30  
Old 12-05-2015, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by quest View Post
very sincere, why? refuse the title, because I do not want to participate or act as a prince but remain free and work on my side, but for my children, titles, I take them, my wife keeps title.




it's just a choice.
I agree, it's a choice. Therefore, IMO it shows Chris doens't care for the title and truly loves Madeleine.

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IMO if you are having a big-fat state funded wedding then you sit your butt down and give a silly, sugary interview. Same goes for televised christenings and royal titles for children. I am not necessarily saying that Madeleine (and Chris) had to do televised interviews for the christenings but it is not hard to believe that there will be people and media who will have expectations in regards to service to Sweden and being visible.

I don't think that Chris not accepting a title was a big deal in and of itself, I also don't think that it was a big deal that Madeleine kept her titles even though she lives outside of Sweden. I think that things got hinky when children entered the picture.

I'm sure that this couple can never win seriously. If they gave up their titles, do you think the press would leave them alone? I bet that if they would disappear from the scene, people would still complain about them.

Said this, I honestly wouldn't be able to watch a dreadful, fake and almost comical interview about their engagement and wedding as I prefer far more useful chit-chats.




I think that's the rub, I can't get past Madeleine flagging "permanent" when she completed registration documents.
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  #31  
Old 12-05-2015, 06:44 PM
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I do understand the word ^Permanent^ that she put down, yet she changed her mind, we all change our minds on this at some points in our lives, I do and on things more important in my life then just where to live, so let it be, she is a grown woman, married with 2 babies, her husband works in his own business so really she can do as she pleases. I get the impression here that some what her to jump through hoops to please them, not going to happen. Not one person on this earth is entitled to know everything about her or her husband or their lives, NoBody. We are not her keepers or her judge (well some judge her very harshly for they feel they need to know everything), let the young lady live her life and go live yours (and not through her), I think she is doing fine. As for her father, we don't personally know what he has said or done or anything, this is all guess work.
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  #32  
Old 12-05-2015, 09:52 PM
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Good post. Agree: 'she can do as she pleases.' Yep.
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  #33  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:13 PM
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What is Prince Nicolas's official surname: Bernadotte, O'Neill, Bernadotte-O'Neill, or O'Neill-Bernadotte?
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  #34  
Old 11-11-2016, 12:19 AM
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What is Prince Nicolas's official surname: Bernadotte, O'Neill, Bernadotte-O'Neill, or O'Neill-Bernadotte?
The members of the royal family have no official surname. This said the director of the press department, Margareta Thorgren, on May 2014 when the press found out that Madeleine and Chris had applied for a diplomatic passport for Leonore and written to it that her surname was Bernadotte O'Neill. According to the swedish name law that was wrong. Bernadotte would have been the middle name and O'Neill the surname. According to the name law people in Sweden can have only one surname.
Margareta Thorgren:
- The royals are registered without a surname, so is Princess Leonore. To minimize problems at passport controls, Princess Madeleine and Chris chose to indicate two surnames to Princess Leonore's passport
So Leonore is not named thus Bernadotte as middle name and O'Neill as surname?
- No, the royals only have first names. This was a practical issue when traveling. Princess Leonore is registered just like the other royals. She wears no last name.
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Daniel is an exception, he is registered as Olof Daniel Westling Bernadotte, Bernadotte as his surname.
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  #35  
Old 11-11-2016, 12:50 AM
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Wikipedia lists Leonore and Nicolas's last name as Bernadotte. Footnotes are cited, for Leonore the source is Skatteverket / public records but it does not link to an actual document or article. For Nicholas the reported source is his birth certificate and there is a link to a Swedish language document that was posted on Tumblr.
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  #36  
Old 11-11-2016, 07:59 AM
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Yeah, I thought that it had already been confirmed that both Leonore and Nicolas had Bernadotte as surname...?
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  #37  
Old 11-11-2016, 08:50 AM
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The great-great-great-great-grandpa of the King was named Jean Baptiste (given name) Bernadotte (surname).
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  #38  
Old 11-11-2016, 09:55 PM
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Yeah, I thought that it had already been confirmed that both Leonore and Nicolas had Bernadotte as surname...?
Yes, Wikipedia may have listed Nicolas's surname as Bernadotte, but Christopher's surname is O'Neill, not Bernadotte. In the business world, there are some companies and contracts where the surname in the successive male generation (grandfather, father, son) must be exactly the same, thus O'Neill.
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  #39  
Old 11-12-2016, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Yes, Wikipedia may have listed Nicolas's surname as Bernadotte, but Christopher's surname is O'Neill, not Bernadotte. In the business world, there are some companies and contracts where the surname in the successive male generation (grandfather, father, son) must be exactly the same, thus O'Neill.

I think that for practical reasons,all the descendants of any royal family should take the paternal surname...
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