Princess Madeleine Expecting Third Child

[Mbruno]

I think some of the rules are different in Sweden..I've seen discussion here about the reason Maddie's kids can be stripped is they are required to be raised in the realm. So...some feel if they are going to be raised mostly in London they should lose their titles.


LaRae

That is indeed the law, but, when Leonore was born, the Marshal of the Realm said that she would lose her place in the line of succession only if she didn't move back permanently to Sweden by time she was of grade school age. There are still about two years to go then before that (assuming grade school age is 6).

 

[Countessmeout]

Why bother stripping them of anything???? There are over 500 people in line for the British throne. Does it matter that there is 10 in line for the Swedish??

If the king planned to strip his grandchildren of their title, he wouldn't have given it to them in the first place. It isn't like Madeleine suddenly decided to leave Sweden recently and things needed to be reconsidered. She was living in NY when Leonor was born, and there was no reason to believe she would be in Sweden. The king is the one who funds or doesn't fund his daughter, through the money he receives, Madeleine herself doesn't receive funds. Really the king is the only one who can complain about the finances.

How is it going to help Madeleine live a private life? Madeleine is always going to be a princess of Sweden. That will keep her in the spotlight. The interest is in her and not her kids. Having them have no title is not going to allow them more privacy. Madeleine would have to change her name and disappear for her to have privacy. And why should she? She has her work with childhood, and is entitled to her place as a Princess, as CP is.

Honestly if Madeleine's kids are stripped, then in fairness CP's kids should be as well. If you are going to 'slim down the monarchy' then slim it down. limit it to the heir's kids. Have CP's kids private citizens as well. But not going to happen, the king isn't going to strip his only male line grandkids.

The kids may lose their place in succession. If they don't come for school. But titles are not the same as succession.

 

[Mbruno]

Why bother stripping them of anything???? There are over 500 people in line for the British throne. Does it matter that there is 10 in line for the Swedish??

If the king planned to strip his grandchildren of their title, he wouldn't have given it to them in the first place. It isn't like Madeleine suddenly decided to leave Sweden recently and things needed to be reconsidered. She was living in NY when Leonor was born, and there was no reason to believe she would be in Sweden. The king is the one who funds or doesn't fund his daughter, through the money he receives, Madeleine herself doesn't receive funds. Really the king is the only one who can complain about the finances.

How is it going to help Madeleine live a private life? Madeleine is always going to be a princess of Sweden. That will keep her in the spotlight. The interest is in her and not her kids. Having them have no title is not going to allow them more privacy. Madeleine would have to change her name and disappear for her to have privacy. And why should she? She has her work with childhood, and is entitled to her place as a Princess, as CP is.

Madeleine was raised in Sweden, is a member of the Church of Sweden, got married with the Swedish government's consent (granted upon the King's request), and is not the sovereign of any foreign country. She cannot be legally removed from the line of succession then. The issue is not Madeleine's succession rights, which are secure, but rather her children's.

The question of titles is somewhat more confusing because there is no clear statutory instrument regulating the titles of the Royal House of Sweden. As I interpret it, before 1980, princes and princesses of Sweden by birth were all male or female descendants in paternal line of King Karl XIV Johan unless they violated some provision in the Act of Succession. Note that the provisions in the Act of Succession were not exclusively related to succession rights per se, but went beyond that. For example, royal princesses of the blood were not in the line of the succession, but, under the Act of Succession, they still couldn't marry unequally or, else,by implication, they ceased to be princesses of Sweden as was the case with Carl Gustaf's sisters.

Post-1980, on the other hand, except for living people who were already HRHs at the time (such as Princess Birgitta), princes or princesses of Sweden are now all descendants (in male or female line) of King Carl XVI Gustaf, unless they violate again some provision in the (amended) Act of Succession, which now also always implies being excluded from the line of succession . In other words, as I see it, the title of prince/princess of Sweden and succession rights come together now.

The royal duchies, on the other hand, are a different matter as, although being an HRH seems to be a necessary condition to get one, it is not a sufficient condition and it's up to the King's discretion really as the duchies are honorific titles of the Royal House.

 

[Somebody]

The royal duchies, on the other hand, are a different matter as, although being an HRH seems to be a necessary condition to get one, it is not a sufficient condition and it's up to King's discretion really as those are honorific titles of the Royal House.

Jonas was to become a duke but not a prince, so was he to become HRH the duke of H & G, or just the duke of H & G?

 

[Somebody]

An easy way to keep the number of royal highnesses/prince(sse)s of Sweden manageable is to not approve the marriage of CG's grandchildren (other than by Victoria). In that way their children won't receive a title, however, that is a risky move as it would reduce the line of succession to only Estelle and Oscar in that generation.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Jonas was to become a duke but not a prince, so was he to become HRH the duke of H & G, or just the duke of H & G?

I don't think that was ever confirmed by the Royal Court. It was just speculations in the swedish media.

As the swedish Dukedoms are honorary titles but also royal titles (the King of Sweden can only award royal titles, not nobility titles) i think he would have had to become an H.R.H if he was to be made a Duke.

My guess is that he would have been made a H.R.H, a Prince, and a Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland.

 

[LadyFinn]

I don't think that was ever confirmed by the Royal Court. It was just speculations in the swedish media.

As the swedish Dukedoms are honorary titles but also royal titles (the King of Sweden can only award royal titles, not nobility titles) i think he would have had to become an H.R.H if he was to be made a Duke.

My guess is that he would have been made a H.R.H, a Prince, and a Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland.

The swedish press wrote that the Marshal of the Realm Ingemar Eliasson said on the day the engagement was published at the press meeting, that Jonas would become the duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland.
Jag föll för hennes vackra blå ögon_ _ Metro

Trond Norén Isaksen wrote about it.
Trond Norén Isaksen_ Jonas Bergström to become duke

Svensk Damtidning wrote the court said that Jonas' title would be Mr Jonas Bergström, the duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland. "whose new title after the wedding will be Mr. Jonas Bergström, Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland." "Jonas Bergström becomes our new duke - but the court tells us that he will keep his last name. The king made Daniel a prince, but Jonas has to settle for the duke title."
Jonas blir vår nye hertig – men behåller efternamnet _ Svensk Damtidning

From the press conference, word by word
Journalist: Jonas, you are now becoming a duke, not a prince. How do you look at it?
Jonas Bergström: I think becoming a duke was a bonus, haha. It was more than I expected, I did not expect to be a prince, so I'm very happy and honored to become a duke and look forward to visiting the duchies with the princess.
Johannes kungliga porträttblogg - Presskonferensen ord för ord

 

[JR76]

An easy way to keep the number of royal highnesses/prince(sse)s of Sweden manageable is to not approve the marriage of CG's grandchildren (other than by Victoria). In that way their children won't receive a title, however, that is a risky move as it would reduce the line of succession to only Estelle and Oscar in that generation.

To my knowledge by not approving them said marriages wouldnt be legal if they married within the country. All the Kings uncles & his relative Lennart married abroad for that reason.

 

[Princess Larisa]

Why would they need to change anything? Currently the monarch’s children and grandchildren are prince and princess. Just leave the same rule in the future, so that Queen Victoria’s grandchildren and after that Queen Estelle’s grandchildren get the prince-ss title in the future.

I though the monarch decides who gets the title and it’s not determined by law. Am I mistaken?

 

[Frelinghighness]

You have to remember tha there was a succession issue with Carl,Gustaf, the current king

 

[Princess Larisa]

You have to remember tha there was a succession issue with Carl,Gustaf, the current king

I know that. What does that have to do with future titles during Victoria’s and Estelle’s reign?


The previous issues was before the constitution was changed and because the previous king was very old-fashioned about marrying commoners. After all, Carl Gustaf has 4 sisters, all married with children, there was no reason for the line to be so perilously close to dying out. Just like it now is in Japan, they could easily change it if they wanted to. They did in Denmark for Queen Margrethe and she’s the same generation as Carl Gustaf.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I though the monarch decides who gets the title and it’s not determined by law. Am I mistaken?

You are correct, though the Act of Succession makes the assumption that all dynasts possessing the right of succession are princes and princesses of the Royal House.

Art. 1. The right of succession to the throne of Sweden is vested in the male and female descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf, Crown Prince Johan Baptist Julii, later King Karl XIV Johan’s, issue in direct line of descent. In this connection, older siblings and their descendants have precedence over younger siblings and their descendants.

Art. 2. The provisions of this Act of Succession relating to The King shall relate to The Queen if The Queen is Head of State.

Art. 3. Repealed.

Art. 4. In accordance with the express provision of Article 2 of the Instrument of Government of 1809 that The King shall always profess the pure evangelical faith, as adopted and explained in the unaltered Confession of Augsburg and in the Resolution of the Uppsala Meeting of the year 1593, princes and princesses of the Royal House shall be brought up in that same faith and within the Realm. Any member of the Royal Family not professing this faith shall be excluded from all rights of succession.

Art. 5. A prince or princess of the Royal House may not marry unless the Government has given its consent thereto upon an application from The King. Should a prince or princess marry without such consent, that prince or princess forfeits the right of succession for himself, his children and their descendants.

Art. 6. Repealed.

Art. 7. The heir to the throne may not undertake travel abroad without the knowledge and consent of The King.

Art. 8. A prince or princess of the Swedish Royal House may not become the sovereign ruler of a foreign state whether by election, succession, or marriage without the consent of The King and the Riksdag. Should this occur, neither he nor she nor their descendants shall be entitled to succeed to the throne of Sweden.

Art. 9. Repealed.

To my knowledge by not approving them said marriages wouldnt be legal if they married within the country. All the Kings uncles & his relative Lennart married abroad for that reason.

But the Act of Succession does not discriminate between marriages contracted inside and outside of the realm, and Prince Carl wed Elsa von Rosen in Sweden.

 

[JR76]

But the Act of Succession does not discriminate between marriages contracted inside and outside of the realm, and Prince Carl wed Elsa von Rosen in Sweden.

The marriage of Carl jr & Elsa von Rosen was officially approved by Gustav V with several members of The Royal Family like Crown Prince Gustav Adolf and his wife Louise attending the wedding.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Yes, but their marriage violated the Act of Succession as much as the marriages of Princes Sigvard, Lennart, and Carl Johan, as Countess Elsa was the daughter of a private Swedish man. Then-Article 5 stated that marriage to a private Swedish man's daughter would follow the same law as a marriage that was not approved by the King.

 

[JR76]

Yes, but their marriage violated the Act of Succession as much as the marriages of Princes Sigvard, Lennart, and Carl Johan, as Countess Elsa was the daughter of a private Swedish man. Then-Article 5 stated that marriage to a private Swedish man's daughter would follow the same law as a marriage that was not approved by the King.

Ive been looking for more info and found something interesting in the memoirs of Kerstin Bernadotte, the first wife of Carl-Johan Bernadotte.
She quotes then Överståthållaren (High Govenor for Stockholm) Torsten Nothin who in his memoirs refers to the Court trying to have her passport confiscated since "according to the Instrument of Governement §44 no prince of the royal house can marry in Sweden without the permission of the King. Such marriage must be done before a foreign authority"
I looked up the old Instrument of Governement from 1809 which in fact states the same with the exception of the "in Sweden" and "foreign authority" part.
Even if it wasnt written there had apparently developed a custom of unapproved marriages not being allowed inside the country.
That customs develop regarding reinterpretations of laws is quite common in the Swedish legal system.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Ive been looking for more info and found something interesting in the memoirs of Kerstin Bernadotte, the first wife of Carl-Johan Bernadotte.
She quotes then Överståthållaren (High Govenor for Stockholm) Torsten Nothin who in his memoirs refers to the Court trying to have her passport confiscated since "according to the Instrument of Governement §44 no prince of the royal house can marry in Sweden without the permission of the King. Such marriage must be done before a foreign authority"
I looked up the old Instrument of Governement from 1809 which in fact states the same with the exception of the "in Sweden" and "foreign authority" part.
Even if it wasnt written there had apparently developed a custom of unapproved marriages not being allowed inside the country.
That customs develop regarding reinterpretations of laws is quite common in the Swedish legal system.

Thank you for the information, JR76. Sorry, I had not read about Carl Johan and Kerstin being informed by the Royal Court that marriage before the Swedish authorities without the permission of the king was disallowed.

Their interpretation then is considerably confusing because as you rightly noted, §44 of the 1809 Instrument of Government did not write anything about "in Sweden" or "foreign authorities".

§44. Ingen prins af det konungsliga huset, det vare sig kronprins, arffurste eller furste, må gifta sig utan konungens vetskap och samtycke. Sker det ändock, hafve han förverkat arfsrätt till riket både för sig, barn och efterkommande.

(§44. No prince of the royal house, whether crown prince, hereditary prince or prince, can marry without the king's knowledge and permission. Should this occur, that prince forfeits the right of succession to the realm for himself, his children and their descendants.)

I hope that the Swedish authorities will interpret the law in a more logical way hereafter.

 

[JR76]

Thank you for the information, JR76. Sorry, I had not read about Carl Johan and Kerstin being informed by the Royal Court that marriage before the Swedish authorities without the permission of the king was disallowed.

Their interpretation then is considerably confusing because as you rightly noted, §44 of the 1809 Instrument of Government did not write anything about "in Sweden" or "foreign authorities".



I hope that the Swedish authorities will interpret the law in a more logical way hereafter.

We havent had a unapproved marriage since the 40s so its hard to say how it would all play out today. Id find it hard to imagine someone being forced abroad to have a legal marriage.
You raised some valid points here just showing how absurd the Law of Succession was used in the 30s & 40s and still affecting the Royal Family today.

 

[LadyFinn]

Expressen tells that the court sent last week invitations to Te Deum and the private lunch after that. They have the Speaker of the Riksdag Urban Ahlin's invitation.
This year, the invitation from the king has been reformulated. In previous thanksgiving services, it has been informed that the Te Deum takes place at 12.15 the day after princess Madeleine has given birth.
In this invitation, it is stated that the Te Deum takes place at 12.15 the day after princess Madeleine has arrived home from the hospital. If she comes home on Friday or Saturday, Te Deum will be held on next Monday.
Kungens ändring inför Te Deum efter Madeleines förlossning _ Kungligt _ Expressen

 

[Mbruno]

The swedish press wrote that the Marshal of the Realm Ingemar Eliasson said on the day the engagement was published at the press meeting, that Jonas would become the duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland.
Jag föll för hennes vackra blå ögon_ _ Metro

Trond Norén Isaksen wrote about it.
Trond Norén Isaksen_ Jonas Bergström to become duke

Svensk Damtidning wrote the court said that Jonas' title would be Mr Jonas Bergström, the duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland. "whose new title after the wedding will be Mr. Jonas Bergström, Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland." "Jonas Bergström becomes our new duke - but the court tells us that he will keep his last name. The king made Daniel a prince, but Jonas has to settle for the duke title."
Jonas blir vår nye hertig – men behåller efternamnet _ Svensk Damtidning

From the press conference, word by word
Journalist: Jonas, you are now becoming a duke, not a prince. How do you look at it?
Jonas Bergström: I think becoming a duke was a bonus, haha. It was more than I expected, I did not expect to be a prince, so I'm very happy and honored to become a duke and look forward to visiting the duchies with the princess.
Johannes kungliga porträttblogg - Presskonferensen ord för ord

Do we know for sure what title was offered to Chris bafore he declined it ? Could he have been made a prince unlike Jonas ?

 

[Marty91charmed]

Found this on instagram... hope it is a fake, otherwise the press department would be in much trouble. Still nothing on the official website:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BfyfeWGAg8r/?taken-by=duchessmeghanofsussex

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

I would be very surprised if this were true, as it seems quite unprofessional for the royal court to tell the sibling of a member of staff (as the poster said in the comments) before the public. I'm guessing it's a hoax.

 

[Pranter]

Hmmm I don't think that is real either.


LaRae

 

[Lee-Z]

The instagram link with the "announcement" has been deleted, so i think we can discard it as "rumour"

 

[Mbruno]

The instagram link with the "announcement" has been deleted, so i think we can discard it as "rumour"

What was the announcement ? I can't see it now.

 

[Lee-Z]

What was the announcement ? I can't see it now.

A person claimed that the baby was born, with a photo of the "official announcement" that he/she got from a friend who worked in the palace... so either completely fake and not having a friend at the palace, or *had* a friend at the palace but won't anymore by publishing something faux-official on a private instagram account