Princess Madeleine & Family Moving to Florida: August 2018

[_Heather_]

I agree there is no need for a final decision until Leonore starts first grade. I do think, however, that the children need some stability in their lives. It cannot be good for them to be moving constantly from New York to Sweden, then to London (and part-time in Sweden), and now back to Florida. In the process, they were/are also constantly changing schools and their immediate social surroundings (particularly Leonore, who is older). Whatever Chris and Madeleine decide, I hope they settle down by the time Leonore is six.

I completely agree with this. Madeleine frequently notes that Leonore is a very high energy child and while there's nothing wrong with that, most high energy children do best in very stable, organized, regimented, scheduled routines. They don't always function or adapt well in constantly changing circumstances. For all of the children but particularly for Leonore I would hope that they will choose a permanent place of residence sooner rather than later.

That being said, I do personally think that this move is driven much more by Chris than Madeleine. Chris has never really given me the warm and fuzzy impression and I very much get the feeling that he wouldn't easily allow his wife's family to dictate his life. This move very much feels to me like Chris deciding where they will live for any number of reasons and Madeleine agreeing to do so rather than she being the driving force behind the move.

 

[tommy100]

Personally I wonder if Madeleine and Chris have seen the media coverage and gossip they get in Sweden and decided better off without it! I don't blame them if thats the reason

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Regarding the hypothetical of Princess Madeleine and her children becoming Mrs./Miss/Mr. O'Neill: Per Swedish law, they would be able to keep the name Bernadotte even if they forfeited their titles.

Other monarchies nowadays don't have that strict line between: someone needs to have the highest royal style available (royal highness & prince(ss) to be in line of succession.

Currently the first one who is not a royal highness in the European lines of succession are:
In Norway: (HH) prince Sverre Magnus (3rd)
In Denmark: HH prince Nikolai (7th)
In the Netherlands: countess Eloise (5th)
In Belgium: Archduchess Anna Astrid (7th)
In Luxembourg: HH princess Amalia (3rd - and first in her generation!)
In the UK: viscount Severn (11th)
In Spain: Felipe de Marichalar y de Bórbon (4th)
In Sweden: none

Liechtenstein and Monaco are excluded as they aren't royal highnesses.

Belgium: HI&RH Princess (not Archduchess) Anna Astrid (official sources listed in this post)
Luxembourg: HRH (not HH) Princess Amalia (official source here)

In my opinion, though, there is no effective difference between HRH, HI&RH, HH, and a prince(ss) having no royal style in present-day Europe.

Also, what is the children’s citizenship? Being born in the US Leonore automatically has US citizenship in addition to her Swedish citizenship. Are the other children dual citizens as well (as children of a US citizen), even though they were born in Sweden?

All three children acquired American citizenship at birth due to their American parent being present in the United States, prior to their birth, for five years after the age of 14. And although the royal court claims they did not, all of them also acquired British citizenship at birth as British citizenship is passed on to one generation born outside the United Kingdom.

http://travel.state.gov/content/tra...isition-US-Citizenship-Child-Born-Abroad.html
http://assets.publishing.service.go...18/children_born_outside_the_uk_sept_2015.pdf (see pages 3 and 5)

Frankly, anything we might say about Chris and Madeleine's private life and the decisions they make as a couple is pure speculation on our part, but, personally, I agree with other posters that Madeleine probably wants to go back to Sweden and would like her children to keep their royal status. I don't buy the version in the Swedish press that she "wants to live an anonymous life" and "become a commoner". I believe she is moving to Florida just because she is bowing down to Chris and what is more convenient for him, which, again, even in an egalitarian culture like Sweden, shows asymmetric treatment based on gender. I am pretty sure for example that, if Carl Philip had married a foreign woman with an international career in finance (as was the case of Máxima Zorreguieta BTW), she would have quit her job to go to Sweden and become a princess, and not the other way around.

I think that you’re absolutely spot on with the gender roles piece. Although if Chris is in international finance, couldn’t he do that based in Sweden? IMO it’s more of a case of him not wanting to live in Sweden, because I’m sure he could make his business work being based in Sweden if he really wanted to.

That is true. Sofia Hellqvist had worked for years in the United States when she began a relationship with Prince Carl Philip, but quit her job and moved to Sweden many years prior to their engagement. Many present-day princes in other European royal families married foreign women (Birgitte van Deurs, Alexandra Manley, Marie Cavallier, Lili Rosboch, Meghan Markle), and all these women quit their careers, moved, and accepted becoming royals.

 

[Kataryn]

That's indeed true for men. Girls born in the royal family were royal highnesses and princess without succession rights.

Other monarchies nowadays don't have that strict line between: someone needs to have the highest royal style available (royal highness & prince(ss) to be in line of succession.

Currently the first one who is not a royal highness in the European lines of succession are:
In Norway: (HH) prince Sverre Magnus (3rd)
In Denmark: HH prince Nikolai (7th)
In the Netherlands: countess Eloise (5th)
In Belgium: Archduchess Anna Astrid (7th)
In Luxembourg: HH princess Amalia (3rd - and first in her generation!)
In the UK: viscount Severn (11th)
In Spain: Felipe de Marichalar y de Bórbon (4th)
In Sweden: none

Liechtenstein and Monaco are excluded as they aren't royal highnesses.

If we talk about belgium: do they not formally recognize the title Archduke/Duchess with the style of HR&IH??

 

[Somebody]

Regarding the hypothetical of Princess Madeleine and her children becoming Mrs./Miss/Mr. O'Neill: Per Swedish law, they would be able to keep the name Bernadotte even if they forfeited their titles.

Belgium: HI&RH Princess (not Archduchess) Anna Astrid (official sources listed in this post)
Luxembourg: HRH (not HH) Princess Amalia (official source here)

In my opinion, though, there is no effective difference between HRH, HI&RH, HH, and a prince(ss) having no royal style in present-day Europe.

That might be your opinion but at least the Norwegian and Danish royal families beg to differ as they specifically use the style to indicate distance to the throne.

Regarding Anna Astrid and Amalia, they still don't meet the requirement of having the main title of their royal family, i.e. princess of Belgium (AA's HI&RH is directly related to her being an archduchess of Austria) and princess of Luxembourg (Amalia is princess of Nassau instead).

 

[Somebody]

If we talk about belgium: do they not formally recognize the title Archduke/Duchess with the style of HR&IH??

They didn't for archduke Lorenz. Anna Astrid's titles seem a mess and remain a mysterie imo.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

If we talk about belgium: do they not formally recognize the title Archduke/Duchess with the style of HR&IH??

At least in Anna Astrid's birth certificate, yes (HI&RH, not HR&IH). However, they also formally recognize Anna Astrid as a Princess (without "of Belgium") and the Belgian court always refers to her as "Princess Anna Astrid", never Archduchess.

You can find all official information that I have found regarding her titles at the bottom of this post (additions are very welcome): http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...elgian-royal-family-38975-15.html#post2117594

That might be your opinion but at least the Norwegian and Danish royal families beg to differ as they specifically use the style to indicate distance to the throne.

I understand, but I have to differ with the royal families' opinion, as many Norwegians/Danes say that they consider the prince(ss) title to be the important designation.

Regarding Anna Astrid and Amalia, they still don't meet the requirement of having the title of their royal family, i.e. princess of Belgium (AA's HI&RH is directly related to her being an archduchess of Austria) nor princess of Luxembourg (Amalia is princess of Nassau instead).

True. But the appropriate Swedish comparison then would be Princess Leonore Bernadotte, rather than plain Miss Leonore O'Neill.

I don't think Madeleine and Chris are broke either. But if the swedish press is right in that Madeleine and Chris paid rent for their apartment in London SEK 170000 a month, in almost three years they lived in London it makes about SEK 6 million. It is a lot of money, over half million GBP. Compared for instance to that Madeleine inherited SEK 10 million from princess Lilian.
And at the same time the house in Florida caused costs. It was for sale, and even for rent, but obviously it was empty most of the time.
And perhaps that, that only Henry d'Abo has put money to Wilton Payments to cover the losses, although he and Chris are the main shareholders, also tells something.

Would it have been an option to purchase or rent a less expensive residence in London?

 

[Denville]

I cant quite see how they can lose their dukedoms if they move.... Its not as if they have done anyting wrong, they are children. Surely they can't lose a title just at the monarch's whim?

 

[JR76]

The royal family's apanage will be investigated.
One of the reasons is Princess Madeleine's move to Florida.
- Grants should be give to those who need them, not one of Sweden's richest people, said Robert Hannah (L).
But Madeleine has no apanage.
- She receives compensation for the times she represents, said Margareta Thorgren.
By 2018, taxpayers contributed 140 million to the head of state.
But who get part of the royal apanage? Last spring, a united constitutional committee, KU, decided to investigate the matter after the election.
The royal house's legitimacy and trust are at risk of being undermined when as many as 15 people get money from public funds, KU wrote among other things.
One of the reasons is that the issue will be investigated is just the princess Madeleine, said Tina Acketoft, member of the Liberal Democratic Party.
She has moved abroad earlier.
- This shows that it is important that we get an investigation to review who will be able to take part of the apanage. Robert Hannah has previously contended that only the King and Crown Princess should receive the state contribution.
- I think the King and Crown Princess should receive a salary, the same salary as the Prime Minister, and then pay taxes on that salary, says Hannah.
- Contributions will be given to those who need them, not one of Sweden's richest people.
Margareta Thorgren claims that Princess Madeleine does not get any apanage.
- It's a misconception that Princess Madeleine gets some sort of monthly compensation. It only goes to the king and the crown princess, says Thorgren.
- Princess Madeleine receives compensation from the king the times she represents, that's all. I would really wish everyone understood.
Isn't it so that you have to go to Swedish school to stay in the line of succession to the Swedish throne?
- It is a question of interpretation, but it is not relevant today. It will be handled correctly, but one of the reasons for the move is that the princess and her husband today have children in preschool age, says Margareta Thorgren.
She welcomes the inquiry requested by KU.
- We are looking forward to it and that we get clear rules who will do official missions, says Margareta Thorgren.
Princess Madeleine's move does not charge the Swedish state at all, according to Thorgren.
- She will live in a private villa, and rather she will gild the United States with her presence as being a Swedish princess.
Will the princess have still her apartment in the Royal Mews?
- Yes, she will come to Sweden and represent. For that she does not pay any rent because the king has the right of disposal. It derives from a 19th century agreement when the state took over the palaces and gave the king the right to dispose ocer the castles.
Prinsessan Madeleine flyttar till Florida – då utreds kungafamiljens apanage _ Aftonbladet



I can't find it now either. But from the website of the court
"Statschefen och hans familj disponerar sina bostäder utan att betala hyra. Detta följer av överenskommelsen i vilken monarken frånsade sig ägandet av slotten."
Bakgrund och fakta_ H.M. Konungens dispositionsrätt - Sveriges Kungahus

I read the same article as you posted here and did some googlin and even if I can't find the source itself both the article you translated and the info suggest there was a deal striken between Karl XIII and the State around 1809 where he relinquished the Royal properties in return for the Royal family being given free use like it is today.

I posted about the inquiry of the Constitutional Assembly (Konstitutionsutskottet) when it started. It could have some interesting consequences both regarding the appanage, membership of the Royal house and a reintroduction of a reformed Order System. The Court seems quite positive about it all.

BTW, just want to take the opportunity to thank you for all the work you do posting about the Bernadottes.

 

[JR76]

I cant quite see how they can lose their dukedoms if they move.... Its not as if they have done anyting wrong, they are children. Surely they can't lose a title just at the monarch's whim?

The thing is that traditionally royal titles and a place in the line of succession goes hand in hand. You either have both or none at all. This was the case when several princes married in violation of the rules of the Order of succession. It was also a prominent argument in the preparatory work to the changes of that Order in the 70s. Given that both custom and preparatory work is very important in the Swedish legal system this would mean that this is the law (my interpretation).

We should also remember that:
1. the duchies are not peerages but personal styles of courtesy.
2. the King can't ennoble anyone. The last person ennobled in Sweden was Sven Hedin in 1901.

This means (again my interpretation) that according to previous the children would lose both HRH, their title and their duchies if they lose their place in the line of succession. If they for example kept their duchies it could be seen as an act of ennoblement which is both illegal and would have both the political establishment and many members of the public on the warpath.

 

[Lady Nimue]

Why is it so startling? I’m more startled that you were startled by this [...] I was just surprised that you were so surprised, it doesn’t seem that shocking a suggestion to me

Well, I guess we all differ. I was startled. It was unexpected for me (though not 'shocking') but I don't know much. Not really an issue, I don't think, so no need to be confused. I matter for nothing. Onward!

 

[Denville]

TWe should also remember that:
1. the duchies are not peerages but personal styles of courtesy.
2. the King can't ennoble anyone. The last person ennobled in Sweden was Sven Hedin in 1901.

This means (again my interpretation) that according to previous the children would lose both HRH, their title and their duchies if they lose their place in the line of succession. If they for example kept their duchies it could be seen as an act of ennoblement which is both illegal and would have both the political establishment and many members of the public on the warpath.

seems very peculiar, by British Standards. If they are given a title, they sould not lose it unless they have done something wrong.. and they haven't. Being in the succession, is another thing since I gather it is the law that they can't be if they are not reared in Sweden. and yes I know that some princes lost their royal titles when they married commoners but that was a logn time ago, and surely nobody feels that it is fair to hold to that rule today?

 

[JR76]

seems very peculiar, by British Standards. If they are given a title, they sould not lose it unless they have done something wrong.. and they haven't. Being in the succession, is another thing since I gather it is the law that they can't be if they are not reared in Sweden. and yes I know that some princes lost their royal titles when they married commoners but that was a logn time ago, and surely nobody feels that it is fair to hold to that rule today?

The thing is that atleast up to now titles have been for those with a place in the line of succession. If you lost that place you lost your title.
Regarding Britain, Alistair of Connaught lost his royal title and status in 1917 because of the Letters patent which limited that to grandchildren of the monarch (although modern research have put doubts on whether he was ever a royal). His mother and aunt, who were grandchildren of a monarch were also encouraged to stop using their royal titles by their uncle the King so it's not that peculiar by British standards either.

Worth noting is that although there are legal and customary precedence regarding the titles of members of the Royal house of Sweden it's not given that the King will let them guide his decisions. He is the one who decides about titles etc for members of SRF. There's also the parliamentary inquiry which could further regulate membership there off. This inquiry was partly set in motion because it was seen as problematic with the Royal family having grown that much in such a short time.
All this is of course just speculations at the moment. There is still a few years before Leonore starts school and we know what the family's plans are.

 

[Somebody]

And sre we even sure that the interpretation that the first 6 years of someone's life are of no significance it all to decide whether they were raised in Sweden? I an aware that's the explanation that was made up when people started wonderimg about Leonore bit it is still rather strange to exclude a child's most fornarive years from the 'being raised' definition.

 

[Mbruno]

I cant quite see how they can lose their dukedoms if they move.... Its not as if they have done anyting wrong, they are children. Surely they can't lose a title just at the monarch's whim?

In the past, whenever a prince of Sweden was excluded from the line of succession, he lost his HRH status and his dukedom . For example,

1. HRH Prince Sigvard of Sweden, Duke of Uppland became Mr Sigvard Bernadotte.
2. HRH Prince Carl Johan of Sweden, Duke of Dalarna became Mr Carl Johan Bernadotte.

Furthermore, I believe they also ceased to be knights of the Royal Order of the Seraphim.



The power of the King to grant dukedoms to princes was apparently derived from an article in the old Instrument of Government of 1809 which said that:

Hvarken Svea rikes kronprins eller arffurste eller prinsar af det konungsliga huset skola hafva något lifgeding eller civilt embete; dock kunna efter gammalt bruk titlar af hertigdömen och furstendömen dem tilläggas, utan rättighet till de landskap, hvilkas namn de bära.

As you can see, it appears that having a dukedom was tied to being crown prince or some other prince of the Royal House, implying that , when one ceased to be a prince of the Royal House, he could no longer remain a duke.


The Instrument of Government of 1809 has now been repealed and replaced with the new Instrument of Government of 1974, which doesn't mention anything about dukedoms. However, since King Carl XVI Gustaf continued to grant dukedoms to his descendants who are in the line of succession, I assume he believes that the article I quoted above still holds as an unwritten royal prerogative and that, furthermore, it has been extended to princesses of the blood too as they are now also in the line of succession.

And sre we even sure that the interpretation that the first 6 years of someone's life are of no significance it all to decide whether they were raised in Sweden? I an aware that's the explanation that was made up when people started wonderimg about Leonore bit it is still rather strange to exclude a child's most fornarive years from the 'being raised' definition.

As I said, I believe that was a subjective interpretation of the law by the Marshal of the Court and, I dare say, a pragmatic one, which aimed at giving Madeleine's family some room to live overseas for a while without any irreversible effect on Leonore's royal status.


As Xenobia said though, now that Leonore and her siblings are only respectively 8th, 9th and 10th in line to the throne, it all sounds much ado about nothing.

 

[shereeclaire]

Personally, I don’t think this is a very wise move. Madeleine ( even though she is my favourite Royal from the SRF ) is not very well-liked and popular in Sweden due to this. She’s a Princess of Sweden, and picking and choosing what she will do or not do does not sit well with the public. By moving further away from Stockholm and yet wanting royal titles for her kids just goes to show that she is only interested in the royal privileges, and not the duties and responsibilities behind it.

Madeleine could solve this issue by simply taking away royal titles of her children, and the public would leave her alone. She could have the quiet life in the United States without the backlash and criticism from the Swedish people. I, like many others, don’t think that she will permanently reside in Stockholm, but I think that would be no issue. It’s very highly unlikely her and her children would be prominent members of the Royal Family in the future, and would be better off living their own personal lives.

 

[Denville]

Personally, I don’t think this is a very wise move. Madeleine ( even though she is my favourite Royal from the SRF ) is not very well-liked and popular in Sweden due to this. She’s a Princess of Sweden, and picking and choosing what she will do or not do does not sit well with the public. By moving further away from Stockholm and yet wanting royal titles for her kids just goes to show that she is only interested in the royal privileges, and not the duties and responsibilities behind it.

Madeleine could solve this issue by simply taking away royal titles of her children, and the public would leave her alone. She could have the quiet life in the United States without the backlash and criticism from the Swedish people. I, like many others, don’t think that she will permanently reside in Stockholm, but I think that would be no issue. It’s very highly unlikely her and her children would be prominent members of the Royal Family in the future, and would be better off living their own personal lives.

I suspect that she was pressured to allow her first child to be a princess and Royal duchess, because at the time, her child was quite high in the successon. But possibly she always preferred the idea of living in America, or London and her husband definitely preferred not to be in Sweden. Possibly, now, when there are quite a few other heirs, she may decide to give up her children using their royal titles and just be Nicolas Bernadotte-O'Neill etc in America....
I can see the argument that if the children are not in the successon, then they are going to lose their titles.. but I suppose Im going on te British tradtion that if they were given dukedoms, then they should not lose them unless they had done something wrong, (not just marrying a commoner)...

 

[LadyFinn]

How long will she turn her back on Sweden?
Princess Madeleine and Chris O'Neill plan to move to Florida. But how long will Madeleine be able to escape her royal duties in Sweden?
Prinzessin Madeleine_ Wie lange wird sie Schweden noch den Rücken kehren_ _ GALA.de

Princess Madeleine endangers the title of her daughter
Prinzessin Madeleine von Schweden gefährdet Leonores Titel – Schweizer Illustrierte

 

[Denville]

How long will she turn her back on Sweden?
Princess Madeleine and Chris O'Neill plan to move to Florida. But how long will Madeleine be able to escape her royal duties in Sweden?
Prinzessin Madeleine_ Wie lange wird sie Schweden noch den Rücken kehren_ _ GALA.de

Princess Madeleine endangers the title of her daughter
Prinzessin Madeleine von Schweden gefährdet Leonores Titel – Schweizer Illustrierte

I don't think that she's needed for royal duties in Sweden... There are Daneil and Victoria, with their 2 children soon to grow up.. and P Carl Philip is also there with his wife.....

 

[Cabbage05]

Who wants to move to Florida with all those snakes and crocs - I am trying to move to London - they be better off living in London in a much cheaper flat

 

[Denville]

Who wants to move to Florida with all those snakes and crocs - I am trying to move to London - they be better off living in London in a much cheaper flat

unless one is very rich, IMO London is not a pleasant place to live... Of course they are pretty rich...

 

[Mbruno]

I read the same article as you posted here and did some googlin and even if I can't find the source itself both the article you translated and the info suggest there was a deal striken between Karl XIII and the State around 1809 where he relinquished the Royal properties in return for the Royal family being given free use like it is today.

I posted about the inquiry of the Constitutional Assembly (Konstitutionsutskottet) when it started. It could have some interesting consequences both regarding the appanage, membership of the Royal house and a reintroduction of a reformed Order System. The Court seems quite positive about it all.

BTW, just want to take the opportunity to thank you for all the work you do posting about the Bernadottes.

I also thank you all for the information you have been posting.



The article linked by LadyFinn seems to be broadly in line with what has been said on this forum, i.e. that, officially, only the King and the Crown Princess get an apanage, but Madeleine and Carl Philip are reimbursed for participation in official events. It also confirms that Madeleine and her family do not pay rent on the apartment in the Royal Mews based on the King's right of disposal.



Of course, those are issues to be decided by the Swedish parliament, but if you allow me an outsider's opinion, I believe it is necessary to narrow down who belongs to the Royal House and who doesn't. In the past, the number of persons in the line of succession surprisingly never grew too much for several reasons. First, succession rights could not be passed in maternal line, which automatically excluded all descendants of princesses of the blood, many of whom BTW married foreign princes and effectively moved out of Sweden. Second, many royal princes and , consequently, their respective descendants were also excluded from the succession because of unequal marriages. Finally, some royal princes didn't make to adulthood and/or didn't have issue.



Nowadays, however, women and their issue are eligible to the throne, the unequal marriage clause in the Act of Succession is gone (although consent to royal marriages is still required), and modern medicine has raised life expectancy dramatically. So, unless the Royal House uses the amended marriage clause as a subterfuge to limit its size, the number of princes and princesses of Sweden will become unmanageable over time.



The use of the marriage clause is certainly a possibility, but it is not in my humble opinion the proper way to deal with the problem. Take Carl Philip's sons for example. They were baptized in the Church of Sweden and will be raised in Sweden, so, until they become adults and get engaged to marry (if they get engaged at all), they will be almost certainly royal princes and dukes. In order for their future children not to be princes too, the only alternative really under the current system is for them to get married without asking the consent of the government. But, in that case, CP's sons themselves would also lose their own succession rights, and their HRHs and dukedoms, which they held for their entire life since birth. That sounds unfair and terribly unpleasant to me as it looks like some kind of punishment to them, when it shouldn't be that.



Certainly, there must be better legal alternatives to limit the size of the Royal House without having also to take away existing rights of living princes and princesses in the process.

Madeleine could solve this issue by simply taking away royal titles of her children, and the public would leave her alone. She could have the quiet life in the United States without the backlash and criticism from the Swedish people. I, like many others, don’t think that she will permanently reside in Stockholm, but I think that would be no issue. It’s very highly unlikely her and her children would be prominent members of the Royal Family in the future, and would be better off living their own personal lives.

If she and her children stay in Florida, or somewhere else outside of Sweden for good, then the issue of her children's royal titles will be naturally solved, as they will lose them under the law. From the article that was posted by LadyFinn, the Court refuses to comment on that possibility now because they still see it as a hypothetical scenario. In other words, they are still hoping that Madeleine and her family move back to Sweden two years from now. The "pragmatic" interpretation about preschool versus school age was precisely IMHO an attempt to postpone having to take a decision on the issue of Madeleine's children's royal status.

Personally, I suspect the King and the Queen also want Madeleine's family to be in Sweden and be full members of the Royal House and, hence, that ambiguity on the part of the Royal Court.

It is a difficult position for Madeleine, having to reconcile the pressure from the Court to be back in Sweden with keeping her marriage to Chris. Again, in the old days, when Madeleine would have married a foreign royal (like Prince William for example) and she and her children would have been princes in another foreign court, she would have been off the hook.

 

[Princess B]

I think most of us agree, that Leonore had to be given a title since she was at that point Estelle’s spare. Not body could be sure if Victoria would have anymore children and Carl Philip would have any at all.
There was a time when only a child Carl Gustaf and his childless uncle Bertie were in the line of succession and the future looked uncertain until CG had children. They didn’t want a repeat of this.

It would be unfair for leonore to have a title and not the other siblings ( also, Nicholas was the kings third grandchild with no certainty of anymore).

I think Madeleine would like her children to have their royal titles, but Chris wants to live away from Sweden. And he does seem to wear the pants. This Madeleine is going along, with the hope that in another two years (till Leonore turns 6), she’d be able to convince him move back to Sweden.

It would be sad if Leonore loses her place in succession for no fault of hers (even though she’s so far down). Either don’t give it to a child, or don’t take it away for no fault of his/hers

 

[SwissRoyal]

The house in Palm Beach is no longer for sale and is under contract (to be sold). It has not been taken off the market. The pending sale can easily be verified on Zillow. Could be of course that Madeleine and Chris have bought it and that it is therefore listed as a ‘sale’ on Zillow, but I believe more likely is that they acquire a house of their own.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The royal titles of Princess Madeleine's children were explained by Axel Calissendorff, lawyer to the king, when he stated that Princess Madeleine's children would be born HRHs "because the princess [Madeleine] remains Her Royal Highness".

SDT1338_

It is primarily a matter of tradition and the constitution, rather than the prospects of Crown Princess Victoria's nieces or nephews becoming Queen or King of Sweden, which were already slim when Leonore was born.

- The children of Prince Carl Philip were born after Crown Princess Victoria had two children of her own. They were given royal titles.

- When Prince Lennart (Gustaf VI Adolf's brother's only child) was born, he was only fifth in line, after his uncle's two sons. He was given royal titles.

- When Princess Margaretha (Gustaf V's brother's eldest child) was born, her uncle's three sons were in line ahead of her father. She and her siblings were given royal titles.

The thing is that traditionally royal titles and a place in the line of succession goes hand in hand. You either have both or none at all. This was the case when several princes married in violation of the rules of the Order of succession. It was also a prominent argument in the preparatory work to the changes of that Order in the 70s. Given that both custom and preparatory work is very important in the Swedish legal system this would mean that this is the law (my interpretation).

If she and her children stay in Florida, or somewhere else outside of Sweden for good, then the issue of her children's royal titles will be naturally solved, as they will lose them under the law. From the article that was posted by LadyFinn, the Court refuses to comment on that possibility now because they still see it as a hypothetical scenario. In other words, they are still hoping that Madeleine and her family move back to Sweden two years from now. The "pragmatic" interpretation about preschool versus school age was precisely IMHO an attempt to postpone having to take a decision on the issue of Madeleine's children's royal status.

I'm under the impression that JR76 was stating his interpretation of the law based on Swedish legal custom, and that the King and court have not clarified their own interpretation.

The court stated when Leonore was born that she would be excluded from the succession if raised outside the realm, but there hasn't been any similar statement regarding titles. That suggests to me that the king either has not decided the issue yet or plans to allow the titles to continue.

 

[LadyFinn]

The house in Palm Beach is no longer for sale and is under contract (to be sold). It has not been taken off the market. The pending sale can easily be verified on Zillow. Could be of course that Madeleine and Chris have bought it and that it is therefore listed as a ‘sale’ on Zillow, but I believe more likely is that they acquire a house of their own.

Maybe Chris's company Bahama Beach Holdings has got good enough offer and they are selling the house, because Madeleine and Chris think that by buying a new house the press will not find them so easily. But by using Google you can get a lot of info about Chris and his companies.

What is interesting, commissioner Ingvar Lindell (who did the investigation of female succession) suggested that the government should take into account where the couple should live when giving consent or denying the permission to a person in the line of succession to marry. But this was never put to the law.

An important point, the wording of the Act of Succession is that the children should be "raised in pure evangelical teaching and within the realm".
That sentence was not changed when the Act of Succession was modernized in 1980. And it is apparent from the preliminary work of the law that it was considered very important that the heir to the throne grows up in Sweden.
Commissioner Ingvar Lindell argues in the investigation of female succession (SOU 1977: 5) that a law on marriage rules equals men and women is often applied in different ways. The princes usually bring home their foreign brides to Sweden, while princesses reside in foreign countries where the children are raised, "maybe without closer contact with Swedish language and Swedish society".
Just to avoid the situation that a Swedish princess marries a foreign man and settles abroad, commissioner Lindell suggested that the government should take into account where the couple should live when giving consent or denying the permission to a person in the line of succession to marry.
Lindell suggested that a consent can be combined with the conditions that the couple settles in Sweden and raises the children here. He referred to similar conditions in Denmark when Princess Benedikte married.
However, some such conditions have not been introduced in Sweden and were not discussed at all when Princess Madeleine was to marry the foreign citizen Christopher O'Neill.
Osäkert vad som gäller för tronföljden - Nyheter (Ekot) _ Sveriges Radio

 

[Somebody]

The court stated when Leonore was born that she would be excluded from the succession if raised outside the realm, but there hasn't been any similar statement regarding titles. That suggests to me that the king either has not decided the issue yet or plans to allow the titles to continue.

Are there any other countries with rhis requirement? King Frederick imposed this as a requirement on Benedikte's children (while they grew up in Germany, they same quite Danish to me) but I don't think it is a formal requirement for others in line to the throne.

It isn't a requirement for the Netherlands (the number 5 in line to the throne only moved to the Netherlands (with her parents and younger siblings) at the age of 12), Norway (Martha Louise took her children to the UK without any fuss), Luxembourg (the current third and fourth in line don't live in Luxembourg while the are the first of their generation), the UK (the line would be way shorter if such a rule was in place), Liechtenstein (the large majority of their princes live abroad), Spain (while there is a lot of media attention for the Urdangarín family, them living abroad is not considered a reason to kick them out of the line of succession) and Monaco (most family members live in France).

 

[JR76]

The royal titles of Princess Madeleine's children were explained by Axel Calissendorff, lawyer to the king, when he stated that Princess Madeleine's children would be born HRHs "because the princess [Madeleine] remains Her Royal Highness".

SDT1338_

It is primarily a matter of tradition and the constitution, rather than the prospects of Crown Princess Victoria's nieces or nephews becoming Queen or King of Sweden, which were already slim when Leonore was born.

- The children of Prince Carl Philip were born after Crown Princess Victoria had two children of her own. They were given royal titles.

- When Prince Lennart (Gustaf VI Adolf's brother's only child) was born, he was only fifth in line, after his uncle's two sons. He was given royal titles.

- When Princess Margaretha (Gustaf V's brother's eldest child) was born, her uncle's three sons were in line ahead of her father. She and her siblings were given royal titles.






I'm under the impression that JR76 was stating his interpretation of the law based on Swedish legal custom, and that the King and court have not clarified their own interpretation.

Yes, it's my personal interpretation although parts of the preparatory work does support it. The question is:
1. How much weight the preparatory work carries (although important its validity is often a case of cherry picking)
2. The King could decide otherwise although I'm sure the government will want to weigh in on this
3. The results of the ongoing inquiry if it's allowed to finish it's work (the September elections could shake things up considerably).

The only clarification of intent from the Court that we have is what's been said about a Swedish education being a requirement for a place in the line of succession.

Now Tatiana, I know you're going to want to see some receipts as usual. I'm on it but working this weekend and writing an essay so it could taje some time.

 

[Mbruno]

Are there any other countries with rhis requirement? King Frederick imposed this as a requirement on Benedikte's children (while they grew up in Germany, they same quite Danish to me) but I don't think it is a formal requirement for others in line to the throne.

I don't think any other European monarchy has the residence requirement as an explicit rule. In British law, there is a requirement that, to become a regent, one has to be a British subject domiciled in the UK, but there is no actual residence (or nationality) requirement to ascend the throne properly.



In Sweden, it is an explicit requirement spelled out in the Act of Succession. In fact, it was already in the original text of the Act of Succession from 1810, so it is not a new provision. In Denmark, as far as I understand, it is not an explicit requirement in the current succession law, but there is this unwritten understanding that the monarch's consent to a royal marriage can be conditional on certain requirements set out by the sovereign. In the case of Princess Benedikte specifically, the implicit requirement was that her children should be raised in Denmark, which was not the case, and that is why they are not considered part of the line of succession to the Danish throne and are not princes/princesses of Denmark.

 

[Mbruno]

T
I'm under the impression that JR76 was stating his interpretation of the law based on Swedish legal custom, and that the King and court have not clarified their own interpretation.

Sweden is definitely not like, for example, Spain, where the law specfies in a very clear way what title each member of the Royal Family has (or could have), and even what their respective styles of address are. So there is a lot that is open to interpretation.


My interpretation, however, based on the wording of the Act of Succession and on the practice of the Court is that, for descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf specifically, being a prince or princess of Sweden is equivalent to being in the line of sucession to the throne. Since equivalence in mathematics works both ways , then losing your place in the line of succession means ceasing to be a prince.


If that is indeed the case, there is actually a simple legal solution to handle the uncontrolled growth in the number of members of the Royal House without having to break the connection between princely status and succession rights. It suffices to follow the Dutch model and limit the line of succession by proximity of blood to the current monarch. That way, when Victoria became queen, her nieces and nephews would still be in the line of succession (and would not have to give up their HRHs or dukedoms), but their respective children (CP's and Madeleine's grandchildren) would not and, automatically, would not be princes. Furthermore, that change could be easily implemented adding a short sentence to Art. 1 of the Act of Succession, and without having to change anything else in the wording of the law.