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  #381  
Old 01-12-2014, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
But I was talking about her style, i.e. "HRH", rather than her title, i.e. "Princess". But it's not a simple as that. "Princess" is probably also a style as well as a courtesy title; it is the "Duchess" that is a real title. And "Doctor" is also probably both a style and courtesy title. Too messy. I give up. She's the king's daughter and always will be. Let her be called whatever she wants to be called.
I really find it offensive to equate a hereditary, antiquated title such as princess to that of "doctor," a title most certainly EARNED.

And I know you of all people agree with me here, Roslyn!
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  #382  
Old 01-12-2014, 07:08 PM
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Doctor, in terms of a PhD, is not a courtesy title. I have a PhD and my title is Dr for life. Unless you're charged with academic misconduct, that title cannot be revoked.
But you're a real doctor; you have a doctorate. I had in mind medical doctors, who, here, usually only have bachelor's degrees in medicine and surgery, etc., not doctorates. And vets, and dentists. They are only courtesy titles.

ETA Gracie, I see your post. Yes, they've earned the title, but it is only a courtesy title unless they have a doctorate. And, BTW, saying that is always a fun way of livening up a boring dinner with medicos. I had a barrister mate with a PhD who had it refined to an art form.

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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
But, Muhler made a good point that when she married it was out of the Bernadotte family and into the O'Neill family and she is, in reality, phasing her "Swedish working Princess" persona out.
But did she? Wikipedia (for what it's worth) tells me that when she married she didn't marry out of the Bernadotte family and into the O'Neill family. She married an O'Neill but didn't become part of that family to the exclusion of the Bernadotte family in that she didn't take on O'Neill as a surname but chose to remain without a surname so she could still be a Princess of Sweden. What do people with more knowledge on the subject than I have say about that idea?
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  #383  
Old 01-12-2014, 07:52 PM
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Is some countries medical docs do have PhD level degrees. It depends upon the curriculum and requirements. Additionally, research level M.D.s also earn the PhD.
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  #384  
Old 01-12-2014, 09:01 PM
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Will King Carl XVI Gustaf and Queen Silvia come to New York City before Princess Madeleine has the baby? Or will the King and Queen wait to visit until after the child's birth?
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  #385  
Old 01-12-2014, 09:14 PM
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Well if this information from Wiki is correct and unlike her Aunt if she hasn't taken her husband's name, then to me that is odd.

Daniel became both a Prince and Duke of Västergötland to Victoria's Duchess when he married her. He also took the surname of Bernadotte and I can understand the reasoning behind that as it is the name of the Royal House and changing that to Westling was never going to happen.

But Chris did not become Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland to Madeleine's Duchess as was the plan for her former fiance. So it seems clear he does not want a Swedish title, even a titular one. This behaviour of retaining his independence and maintaining his privacy seems at odds with Madeleine not taking his name and remaining a Bernadotte.

If she wanted to maintain her status as a Princess of Sweden, then I would have thought that she would have been at the Nobel's, gloriously pregnant and sparkling. But she wasn't (and we know her health was not an issue). There would also be no doubt but that she would have her child in Sweden. She doesn't plan to.

Which brings us back to her being HRH Princess Madeleine of Sweden and not "turning up for work" so to speak. And yes, that definitely smacks of wanting to have her cake and eat it.

As to the name, title or even surname of her child . . . who knows.
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  #386  
Old 01-12-2014, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
But did she? Wikipedia (for what it's worth) tells me that when she married she didn't marry out of the Bernadotte family and into the O'Neill family. She married an O'Neill but didn't become part of that family to the exclusion of the Bernadotte family in that she didn't take on O'Neill as a surname but chose to remain without a surname so she could still be a Princess of Sweden. What do people with more knowledge on the subject than I have say about that idea?
To me it seems more likely that Wikipedia is wrong on this (unthinkable, I know).

I don't know much about titles in the Swedish system, but if you consider someone like the British Princess Anne, being a Princess of the United Kingdom doesn't prevent her from also being Lady Anne Laurence, she just chooses not to use that title, instead using her higher one, Princess Royal.

Similarly, O'Neill is very likely Madeleine's surname, but since it doesn't fit in with her other titles. If she was just a Princess of Sweden then her full title would be "Princess Madeline, Mrs. O'Neill," but it gets dropped as she's also a Duchess.
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  #387  
Old 01-12-2014, 09:59 PM
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Living in Manhattan's Big Apple New York may not be the Princesses permanent residency or calling for where she finds home. There really is many journeys one can have asides from one's home country of origin birth. Sweden has always been my most admired nation where the beautiful populace is my father figure as example for other countries especially mine as I was raised to respect and admire health and solute of a land earning their revere and true love in life. I have grown up since the days of my youth and although I would appear a foreigner in Sweden, it might be a good place to call home. Maybe Madeleine has lived mostly in her fathers land and like anyone would like to see the shores of another treasurable land for some time. We may not know Chris or Madeleines personal desires but I will never wish them a heart that does not set men free especially the freedom of them and their own. Yes you can aim your arrows at formal expectancy but our world is ever evolving and delicate in it's developing makeup and the platform for inclusion of optimal grace can be varied as are the many lineages and says of different lands. I say good luck to them for it seems not good to not know where we come from. I'm sure Madeleine has lived many years in Sweden and we will never know if being part of the Reign attracts her back to that special and harmonious and beautiful land that she's heir of. Give the Royals credit though, they have a keen eye. Cheers.
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  #388  
Old 01-13-2014, 12:31 AM
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Madeleine's last name is still Bernadotte (the royals don't use it), she didn't take O'Neill as her last name when they married. It is just a name and that doesn't change the fact that she has married into the O'Neill family.

Finnish MTV quoted yesterday the article in Expressen's paper issue. Johan T Lindwall claims to know that it was Chris who persuaded the queen that Madeleine can give birth in New York. At first the king and queen thought that she should give birth in Sweden. Annika Sönnerberg from the press department said that she can confirm that the king and queen want to see their grandchild as soon as possible and that they are going to New York when the child will be born.
Ruotsin hovi perustelee Madeleinen synnytyspäätöstä - Uutiset - Viihde - MTV.fi
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  #389  
Old 01-13-2014, 04:13 PM
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How easy is it to get access to copies of birth certificates in the US, specifically the State of New York?
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  #390  
Old 01-13-2014, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post

But Chris did not become Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland to Madeleine's Duchess as was the plan for her former fiance. So it seems clear he does not want a Swedish title, even a titular one. This behaviour of retaining his independence and maintaining his privacy seems at odds with Madeleine not taking his name and remaining a Bernadotte.
Why would Chris's retaining his independence require Madeleine to take his name? Seems more likely that they'd each keep their own names. They were listed on the BuyBuyBaby registry as Madeleine Bernadotte and Chris O'Neill.

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How easy is it to get access to copies of birth certificates in the US, specifically the State of New York?
In New York, only the person named on the birth certificate and his or her parents can get a copy without a court order.
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  #391  
Old 01-13-2014, 04:54 PM
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How easy is it to get access to copies of birth certificates in the US, specifically the State of New York?
Not easy at all. When I thought I needed one for my ex-husband to claim widows benefits under his social security he was already deceased. New York state only gives birth certificates to the mother, the father or to the person whose birth certificate it is. In my case all of those individuals were deceased, and I would have had to try to get a letter from Social Security stating why I needed the certificate. Fortunately it turned out I didn't need it.
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  #392  
Old 01-13-2014, 05:21 PM
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That's a shame. I'd really love to know how she's described on it.
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  #393  
Old 01-13-2014, 09:54 PM
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I had to get birth certificates for our family, and for the son who was born in NYC, it was the highest level computer security.
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  #394  
Old 01-14-2014, 10:53 AM
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Svensk Damtidning writes that the king and the queen wanted that the baby would be born but Madeleine's strong will won and the baby will be born in USA.
Madeleine's and Chris O'Neill's daughter becomes a U.S. citizen.
- It has no constitutional significance where she gives birth, as the King and Queen have approved Madeleine's decision.
But there is a risk that the baby will "drop" her ticket to the succession order to the Swedish throne.
If Madeleine's daughter gets a Catholic upbringing, which is her father's family tradition, it could mean that she loses her place in the succession. According to the king's attorney, the following applies: If the child becomes only a U.S. citizen, or if it takes too long before the family moves home, Madeleine's daughter can lose her right to the crown.
- We give detailed information on this in connection with the birth. I do not have all the information now, says Annika Sönnerberg, the deputy director of the press department.
Estelles nya kusin blir amerikanska! Svensk Damtidning
Translation

It seems strange that the king's solicitor doesn't know that the child of a Swedish mother will always become a Swedish citizen.
Automatic citizenship through birth, adoption or parental marriage - Swedish Migration Board
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  #395  
Old 01-14-2014, 12:50 PM
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I had in mind medical doctors, who, here, usually only have bachelor's degrees in medicine and surgery, etc., not doctorates. And vets, and dentists. They are only courtesy titles.
Oxford Dictionary meaning of a DOCTOR: A person who is qualifies to treat illness. (Then comes the University research degree, which is equally great/significant of course)
Be it a bachelors/vets/dental.
There is absolutely nothing 'courtesy' in that. It is hard-earned by taking the course and clearing the test and earning the degree.
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  #396  
Old 01-14-2014, 03:50 PM
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Opinions vary from country to country and from profession to profession, and context to context, and a dictionary definition is merely one definition. Pronominal pronunciamentos

"Doctor" is not even mentioned in the list of protected titles in the Health Practitioner Regulation National Law legislation of 2009. "Medical Practitioner" is in the list, but not doctor.
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  #397  
Old 01-14-2014, 04:18 PM
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Actually, it is more difficult to win a place in veterinary school than in people medical school. Veterinarians are known, at lease in the US, as DVM's. Doctor of Veterinary Medicine. It is a real title, not a courtesy title.
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  #398  
Old 01-14-2014, 04:32 PM
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Actually, it is more difficult to win a place in veterinary school than in people medical school. Veterinarians are known, at lease in the US, as DVM's. Doctor of Veterinary Medicine. It is a real title, not a courtesy title.
As I said, different rules and practices in different countries under different education systems.

I think psychologists are called doctors in the US, too? Or is it that you call psychiatrists, who here are specialist medical practitioners, psychologists?

Wonder how long before these posts are yanked off the stage.
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  #399  
Old 01-14-2014, 05:33 PM
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In the USA a psychartrists is a full fledged Doctor with a speciality. That means, bachelors degree, plus 4 years or more of doctorate program plus residency. Most resident programs last at least 2 years. Only a full fledged doctor can prescribe drugs. A psychologists cannot. DVM is also a minimum of 8 years of schooling and is very tough. I had 2 nieces that could not get through Vet school. A pharmacist also requires 8 years of schooling. They receive a doctorate of Pharmacy, but are not called Dr. on the job. My grandson is in his 2nd year of pharmacy school. This is after his bachelor degree .
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  #400  
Old 01-14-2014, 09:30 PM
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How easy is it to get access to copies of birth certificates in the US, specifically the State of New York?
If you are the parent, you just go to the town hall in the town the child was born in and apply for a copy. As for anyone else to get it, no idea.
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