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  #361  
Old 01-12-2014, 12:53 PM
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Madeleine was born a princess, HRH, daughter of a monarch, and will not be stripped of her HRH, like the King's sisters were who married commoners. That changed about the time when the King married a commoner :).
Her husband declined a title, as did Princess Anne's of GB's husband. In Anne's case, that meant the children were not royal. She of course still was and was even elevated to Princess Royal and became a bulwark of the BRF.
Women who marry into royalty assume their husband's status upon marriage. The men do not assume their wife's status and either have titles bestowed on them or not.
Having the child in NY where M lives and her doctor is and her husband works (is he back to work yet??) seems totally normal to me. Bestowing an HRH on her child doesn't seem right but it is the King's perogative, as was the size and scope and televising of the wedding.
As Muhler stated above, the fact of Estelle and CP's status play a huge role in all of this.
I hope she has an uneventful delivery and this baby will be joined soon with another cousin!
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  #362  
Old 01-12-2014, 01:56 PM
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Just putting my two cents here: if Madeleine and Chris want to live a low-key life in New York and remain below the radar, so to speak, they would be better off refusing a title for their child which will boost them into a different stratosphere in the public eye. This would make even more sense if Madeleine wishes to cut or reduce her ties to Sweden.
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  #363  
Old 01-12-2014, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Baroness of Books View Post
Just putting my two cents here: if Madeleine and Chris want to live a low-key life in New York and remain below the radar, so to speak, they would be better off refusing a title for their child which will boost them into a different stratosphere in the public eye. This would make even more sense if Madeleine wishes to cut or reduce her ties to Sweden.
No need to cut ties. For us that have families in both countries we simply have two "homes". Princess Madeleine is wealthy in her own right and also married a man that can support her in an affluent lifestyle so she has the right to live however she likes. Daddy is most likely not paying for her. I doubt Chris would let his wife be supported by hear dad. She only gets support when she represents Sweden and should then rightfully be reimbursed for her costs. I met princess Christina at many functions in US and I doubt she paid for all her travel on behalf of Sweden out of her own pocket.
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  #364  
Old 01-12-2014, 02:38 PM
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It is the custom in many countries, Sweden and US included, that the wedding takes place where the brides family resides, after all they are paying for the wedding.
Exactly. It is very common in the U.S. for the wedding to take place in the bride's hometown.

Also, I'd agree that very few Americans know that Sweden is a kingdom. I didn't know until I found this site. I don't think Americans are aware of monarchies outside of England, Monaco, maybe Jordan. (And that would be because of our history with England, Princess Grace being an American, our ties to Jordan as an ally/Queen Noor being American-born.)

Madeline was born HRH based on who her father is. I don't see why that should change. It is what it is. I don't know what the precedent is for titles for members of the RF that are considerably further down the line of succession; so, I can't comment on that.
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  #365  
Old 01-12-2014, 02:50 PM
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Well, it's not so much a matter of how Madeleine see herself, but how the Swedes see her.

Madeleine may rightly see herself (and not least her children) as having two homes and see herself as being a more or less frequent representative of Sweden.
However, as I understand the debate, and as I would probably feel If I were Swedish, is that Madeleine is making herself more and more irrelevant as a representative by not physically being more in Sweden.
That's why I believe the bonds between Madeleine as a person and Madeleine as a Swedish Princess are being quietly severed. It may not even have dawned on her for real yet.
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  #366  
Old 01-12-2014, 03:06 PM
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No need to cut ties. For us that have families in both countries we simply have two "homes". Princess Madeleine is wealthy in her own right and also married a man that can support her in an affluent lifestyle so she has the right to live however she likes. Daddy is most likely not paying for her. I doubt Chris would let his wife be supported by hear dad. She only gets support when she represents Sweden and should then rightfully be reimbursed for her costs. I met princess Christina at many functions in US and I doubt she paid for all her travel on behalf of Sweden out of her own pocket.
That may be, but if they prefer a low-key lifestyle as I had mentioned, they'd be well to refuse that HRH for their child wherever they live. They don't have to have everything that Madeleine as a royal princess is entitled to, even if she can have a child born of a female royal carry a title. She has to weigh the ramifications of a little prince or princess, duke or duchess, and the increased attention and ties to Sweden it will bring against the plain old "Miss" or "Master" that will reduce the focus of a child born further down the succession and allow them to live with some privacy.
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  #367  
Old 01-12-2014, 04:05 PM
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I thought the recent issue related to her retaining her HRH status and/or having the baby where she lives, i.e. in the US. What does that have to do with where she got married? The issues are completely separate. Has someone actually suggested she shouldn't have gotten married in Sweden if she wasn't going to be a working princess? Of course it was reasonable for her to get married in her homeland if that's what she and her fiancee and her family wanted.
There was kind of a pattern, they had this big, televised wedding in Sweden but of course it was 'private', Madeleine gave very restricted access in terms of interviews etc, people had the impression that she wanted this big event but only the nice parts of it: with Madeleine its usually 'both' and not either or in that respect.

I can already hear her pleas for privacy, but at the same time she will have her daughter made HRH with a big, televised baptism in Sweden, of course not giving full access because its 'private'.
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Old 01-12-2014, 04:10 PM
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But the doctor can't practise if she doesn't comply with her certification authority's requirements and keep her qualifications up to date. Should a princess who doesn't perform royal duties be permitted to retain the style that implies she is a practising princess?

We are not talking about practising the job but about not practising the job. A doctor could stop working as a doctor for good but would still be a doctor until he/she dies. Even after that he/she would still be known as Doctor XY. The same holds true with Madeleine being a princess. She simply is a princess. Working royal duties or not.

For me - even if I would be a swedish taxpayer - the life she lives would be perfectly okay. She builds a life of her own (because she droppes further and further down in line to the throne), does charity (because she has private money enough and also a husband with a good paying job and doesn't need a paying job of her own for a living) and every now and then she does some royal duties. For this duties her Daddy buys her a nice gown and an airplane ticket which is perfectly okay. Because Daddy works for his apanage year-round and doesn't has to answer on how he spends his earned money.
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  #369  
Old 01-12-2014, 04:17 PM
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Its not an issue if Madeleine and Chris want their child to be born in NY, that's a personal decision for them to take of course it is and no one can reasonably argue against that. The only issue is if they then want their child to have a title and be considered in succession to the throne.
I looked very quickly on wikipedia (I know not the best tool to research but I have to be quick) and out of the few provisions it lists the constitution containing about succession is that the children of an approved marriage be brought up within Sweden. Well I think as things stand it is clear that Madeleine and Chris want their lives to be in NY and the birth taking place their just confirms that.
As for declaring the hospital suite Swedish soil, I think that really would be having your cake and eating it!! It was their choice to have the birth there and they have to accept that comes with consequences.
To me it is clear that really Madeleine's live is in NY and that's fine but she should accept that, her husband has no title, her child should not IMO have a title and she should make a quite, private life for herself and her family.
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  #370  
Old 01-12-2014, 04:38 PM
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As for declaring the hospital suite Swedish soil, I think that really would be having your cake and eating it!! It was their choice to have the birth there and they have to accept that comes with consequences.
To me it is clear that really Madeleine's live is in NY and that's fine but she should accept that, her husband has no title, her child should not IMO have a title and she should make a quite, private life for herself and her family.
Declaring the hospital suite swedish soil would not agree with the girl becoming a heir to the throne. That would only be that case if every soil her little feet tapped on would be temporarly swedish soil (because heirs have to be raised mostly in Sweden to become heirs) and that would be just ridiculous.

I agree that the baby shouldn't become the title of a Princess of Sweden. Maybe they can find a compromiss as a Duchess of whatever or an even lower title (if that's possible in Sweden) so mark her as the offspring of a noble born mother. But it would be even better they completely declined a title for their kids.

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I quite agree. And even for Americans who know that there are other monarchies, we tend to image them all along the lines the British Monarchy. We are not very discerning.
And you would be completely right with that thinking because almost every european monarchy can be drawn back to Queen Victoria of the UK. Just take a look at the british line of succession. You can find all the big royal names there.
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  #371  
Old 01-12-2014, 04:40 PM
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Just out of interest: has that ever been done, declare the birthroom "another country" from the country it's in (don't know the english phrase for it)?

(When dutch P.Margriet was born in Canada during WWII they declared the birthroom "non-Canadian soil" so without a nationality to it, so by default her nationality would be that of her parents) (dutch))
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  #372  
Old 01-12-2014, 04:53 PM
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I can't remember if that has ever been done. I only know the example of the dutch Princess born in Canada, too. And in that example the room was declared "not canadian" but not "dutch". But you sparked my interest now. Maybe I find something on Google.
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  #373  
Old 01-12-2014, 04:57 PM
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I can't remember if that has ever been done. I only know the example of the dutch Princess born in Canada, too. And in that example the room was declared "not canadian" but not "dutch". But you sparked my interest now. Maybe I find something on Google.

Princess Margriet of the Netherlands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

edit

http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categorie...in-ottawa.html
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  #374  
Old 01-12-2014, 05:03 PM
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Madeleine was born a princess, HRH, daughter of a monarch, and will not be stripped of her HRH, like the King's sisters were who married commoners. That changed about the time when the King married a commoner :).
Her husband declined a title, as did Princess Anne's of GB's husband. In Anne's case, that meant the children were not royal. She of course still was and was even elevated to Princess Royal and became a bulwark of the BRF.
Not quite. In Britain, only the children of the sons of a monarch get HRH under the 1917 Letters Patent. Children of daughters get whatever title/style their fathers have. As Anne was not heir to the throne, no special exemptions were made for her children (like were made for her mother when she was Princess Elizabeth) so they took the style of their father: i.e. Mr. and Miss Phillips. If The Queen had given Mark Phillips a title (he supposedly declined an Earldom with his wife's approval) their children might have been Lady Zara and (Peter) Viscount Whatever - but NOT HRH Prince and Princess. Since the next three heirs are male, changing this is a moot point for another couple generations.
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  #375  
Old 01-12-2014, 05:15 PM
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Thank! I didn't remember the name, but I remember the story. Very interesting. And a real hype back then as first royal being born on the north american continent. In a few weeks a second royal will follow.
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  #376  
Old 01-12-2014, 05:18 PM
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Prince Leka of Albania was born on Albanian soil in Johannesburg, South Africa.

Prince Leka of Albania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 01-12-2014, 06:01 PM
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We are not talking about practising the job but about not practising the job. A doctor could stop working as a doctor for good but would still be a doctor until he/she dies. Even after that he/she would still be known as Doctor XY. The same holds true with Madeleine being a princess. She simply is a princess. Working royal duties or not.
But I was talking about her style, i.e. "HRH", rather than her title, i.e. "Princess". But it's not a simple as that. "Princess" is probably also a style as well as a courtesy title; it is the "Duchess" that is a real title. And "Doctor" is also probably both a style and courtesy title. Too messy. I give up. She's the king's daughter and always will be. Let her be called whatever she wants to be called.
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  #378  
Old 01-12-2014, 06:24 PM
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But I was talking about her style, i.e. "HRH", rather than her title, i.e. "Princess". But it's not a simple as that. "Princess" is probably also a style as well as a courtesy title; it is the "Duchess" that is a real title. And "Doctor" is also probably both a style and courtesy title. Too messy. I give up. She's the king's daughter and always will be. Let her be called whatever she wants to be called.
Doctor, in terms of a PhD, is not a courtesy title. I have a PhD and my title is Dr for life. Unless you're charged with academic misconduct, that title cannot be revoked.

ALL Royality titles are courtesy. They can be stripped. Just think of Greece, Italy etc. They use their titles in courtesy.

Just because Madeline lives in another country does not mean she's severing ties with Sweden. Furthermore, Chris and Madeline may refuse titles for their children and this decision could be announced after the child is born. They may even take a leaf out of Edward and Sophie of Wessex's book - the child may still be a Princess of Sweden, but is known as Miss O'Neill until she reaches age of majority and she can choose her title then (i.e. Lady Louise is technically HRH Princess Louise of Wessex as Prince Edward is a Prince of Great Britian and a son of the current reigning monarch. No Letter Patent had ever been released changing that).

Chris and Madeline would have considered the pros and cons to delievering their daughter in the US and Sweden. Chris' and Madeline's life, work and home are in New York. It just makes sense to deliver the child there.
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Old 01-12-2014, 06:28 PM
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Madeleine was born an HRH Princess and to be honest, there is no reason to strip her of her HRH but there is precedent for her to remain so. She is who she was and marrying doesn't change it.

But, Muhler made a good point that when she married it was out of the Bernadotte family and into the O'Neill family and she is, in reality, phasing her "Swedish working Princess" persona out. That would make sense of her spending so much time out of the country, skipping a big, almost State occasion like the Nobel's, but coming to her mother's birthday celebration, holidaying with her family at Christmas but planning to give birth to her family in NY.

Question: Do we know that Madeleine and Chris actually want their daughter to be an HRH or even a Princess? Or, are people just making assumptions?
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Old 01-12-2014, 06:40 PM
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^There was this statement of the Kings lawyer, but not from them.
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