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  #281  
Old 11-06-2013, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Madeleine, as a Princess, has grown up knowing the rules. So no surprises for her regarding the place of birth/titles debate.

Why anyone would think to change the rules for her is strange to me. She hasn't asked for them to be changed (or we would know about it). IT looks like a case of onlookers caring more than the participants.

That said - if you wanted a really secure monarchy, then having at least 2 potential heirs for the future is a good thing. I'm being practical here, no emotional involvement at all. No sign of a sibling for Estelle yet; Carl's future state as husband and father still undecided. So Madeleine having her child in Sweden would be a really sound, practical idea. For the sake of the monarchy, not Madeleine.
Completely agree. After Victoria, there will be four in the line of succession when Madeline's daughter is born.

I don't understand why people are outraged if she wants to give birth in NY? She is a Swedish princess who happens to be married to an American. She still holds a Swedish passport, citizenship and represents the SRF. If this was Carl-Phillip, I bet people wouldn't say a word because of the tradition that males bring titles upon their children. I like the fact that a Princess, other than the Crown Princess, can give her child the title of prince/ss and the rank of HRH! About time!
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  #282  
Old 11-07-2013, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava View Post
Completely agree. After Victoria, there will be four in the line of succession when Madeline's daughter is born. I don't understand why people are outraged if she wants to give birth in NY? She is a Swedish princess who happens to be married to an American. She still holds a Swedish passport, citizenship and represents the SRF. If this was Carl-Phillip, I bet people wouldn't say a word because of the tradition that males bring titles upon their children. I like the fact that a Princess, other than the Crown Princess, can give her child the title of prince/ss and the rank of HRH! About time!
Where do you find this? I find this to be very interesting. Chris is not a member of the royal house, so why would Madeline's little girl get a title of Princess and style HRH?
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  #283  
Old 11-07-2013, 02:50 AM
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Since the first born child is the heir regardless of sex, Victoria became Crown Princess. Her daughter is a princess. If Carl Philip has a child it will be a prince or princess, so why would Madeleine's child be any different. I think that is the logic but I am not sure if it is accurate.
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  #284  
Old 11-07-2013, 04:15 AM
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Where do you find this? I find this to be very interesting. Chris is not a member of the royal house, so why would Madeline's little girl get a title of Princess and style HRH?
The King's solicitor Axel Calissendorff told soon after the pregnancy was confirmed, to Svensk Damtidning that because Madeleine is still a HRH, the child will be a prince/princess and a HRH too. So it looks like this had been discussed with Madeleine and Chris already. It makes Calissendorff look rather odd, if Madeleine and Chris decide that they don't want a title to their daughter. And since Madeleine obviously wants all she can get, I think that she wants her daughter to be a HRH.
I think that like in Denmark Joachim's children are only HH's, that would be fine in Sweden also.
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  #285  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Since the first born child is the heir regardless of sex, Victoria became Crown Princess. Her daughter is a princess. If Carl Philip has a child it will be a prince or princess, so why would Madeleine's child be any different. I think that is the logic but I am not sure if it is accurate.
Especially as Sweden is a very "gender equal" country.
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  #286  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:57 AM
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I read on Twitter it was confirmed that her child will be titled
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  #287  
Old 11-07-2013, 11:30 AM
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The King's solicitor Axel Calissendorff told soon after the pregnancy was confirmed, to Svensk Damtidning that because Madeleine is still a HRH, the child will be a prince/princess and a HRH too. So it looks like this had been discussed with Madeleine and Chris already. It makes Calissendorff look rather odd, if Madeleine and Chris decide that they don't want a title to their daughter. And since Madeleine obviously wants all she can get, I think that she wants her daughter to be a HRH.
I think that like in Denmark Joachim's children are only HH's, that would be fine in Sweden also.
Exactly. In Norway, Sverre Magnus is not styled HRH and he is the the son of the future king Haakon. As I said before, Madeleine has every right to have her child titled, but she has to take in the consequences, meaning that people are not happy about a HRH kid living in NY, with little presence and relation to swedish issues, Madeleine living in NY, only jetting in for high profile events of the SRF, paparazzi following her an her family all the time, not giving her the private space in NY that she wants.
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  #288  
Old 11-18-2013, 03:10 AM
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Wow I'm surprised that her child will be titled. I guess when the baby is born that'll mark the end of New York.
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  #289  
Old 11-18-2013, 05:25 AM
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Wow I'm surprised that her child will be titled. I guess when the baby is born that'll mark the end of New York.
Why might the birth of the baby "mark the end of New York"?
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  #290  
Old 11-18-2013, 05:57 AM
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Professor Dick Harrison about Madeleine's daughter and her title.
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Old 11-18-2013, 11:01 AM
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If the child is born in the US, whether she has a Swedish title or not, will be at the very least a dual citizen. She will be an "anchor baby." As an American, I would recognize her only as the daughter of a Swedish princess and a non-royal father, thus the child would be a non-royal.
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Old 11-18-2013, 11:09 AM
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Why might the birth of the baby "mark the end of New York"?
I'll eat my hat if Chris moves to Sweden on a permanent basis!
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  #293  
Old 11-18-2013, 11:17 AM
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If Victoria and Daniel have no other children, I think Maddes daughter should be in the succession for secureness.
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  #294  
Old 11-18-2013, 11:18 AM
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On a lighter note....At least those 'do your family tree' projects will be easy and bring your parent to school day will be a hit and it's Not every little girl has a visiting Aunty, cousins, granny and grandpa who require security, international diplomacy and the odd priceless tiara
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  #295  
Old 11-18-2013, 02:16 PM
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If the baby is styled HRH and is in line for throne, then the baby most likely has to be brought up in Sweden. Which means them spending less time in New York.

But at the same time, I can't see Chris living permanently in Sweden. Maybe the royal family and the Swedes won't mind if their royal is raised abroad. Not sure how that will work.
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  #296  
Old 11-18-2013, 02:24 PM
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I didn't expect this.
With a royal mother and a non-royal dad (who didn't want a title upon his marriage), I would have expected the children to have no title, kind of like the Casiraghi's.
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:02 PM
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When I first heard that Madeleine's daughter will be an HRH, I was surprised as Chris doesn't have a title - I still find this quite strange as he doesn't "even" have a dukedom and no HRH. I thought they would be Mr/Miss O'Neill. I doubt this is the reason why, but perhaps it's because the little one is going to be the King's granddaughter, and since Estelle has a title, maybe King Carl Gustaf and Queen Silvia decided to give Baby Bernadotte/O'Neill one as well.

This is changing the subject slightly and probably belongs in another thread, but I also found it strange that Chris O'Neill didn't receive a title at his wedding, whereas it was said that Jonas would become a Duke after his wedding to Madeleine (which never happened as the couple broke up).
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  #298  
Old 11-18-2013, 03:07 PM
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This is changing the subject slightly and probably belongs in another thread, but I also found it strange that Chris O'Neill didn't receive a title at his wedding, whereas it was said that Jonas would become a Duke after his wedding to Madeleine (which never happened as the couple broke up).
Chris O'Neill didn't receive a title, because he refused to have one. He wanted to continue his business and he didn't want to take the swedish citizenship. The press release from the Marshal of the Realm in May:
... In view of these requirements, Mr Christopher O'Neill has respectfully requested to remain a private citizen and not to be granted royal rank.
Mr Christopher O'Neill's title - Sveriges Kungahus
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:20 PM
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Chris O'Neill didn't receive a title, because he refused to have one. He wanted to continue his business and he didn't want to take the swedish citizenship. The press release from the Marshal of the Realm in May:
... In view of these requirements, Mr Christopher O'Neill has respectfully requested to remain a private citizen and not to be granted royal rank.
Mr Christopher O'Neill's title - Sveriges Kungahus
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Originally Posted by Lord Vimaranes View Post
I believe he asked for not receive a title.

I also find it strange that their daughter is going to have a title. Well, I think she should just be a Highness, not a Royal Highness. The same goes for the future children of Prince Carl Philip.
Thanks for your replies, LadyFinn and Lord Vimaranes (welcome to TRF, I see you're new here ). Kungahuset's explanation is very clear, this area of Swedish Royal titles makes sense to me now. At the time of the wedding, I did think that Chris not being given a royal title had something to do with him wanting to be a private citizen.
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  #300  
Old 11-18-2013, 05:08 PM
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As an American I had it explained to be once, "You do not get to be a private person if you're a royal," or for that matter anyone famous, least in America. But mostly I think that's due to the fact that Americans become movie stars, I look at it as, that's their choice to be famous and put themselves out there to promote whatever film and so on

And I look at being royal. In Madeleine's case. Sure, she was born a royal but she didn't ask to be born royal, nobody asked her if she wanted to be hounded by the press or do official events as a child growing up. And I think for the most part she had probably a quiet childhood with few exceptions I'll never know.

I look at it as whether or not your parents have titles or not, they chose to have children out of love in today's world, less I suppose for succession I'm not sure. Sure, she might have the burdens, as I'm sure most public figures movie star or royal feel burdened from time to time.

I do not know Madeleine, dislikes, likes and whatever is printed or read it more often times than not will never reveal who she really is behind the HRH tile. Just like magazines here don't reveal who a movie star is behind their fame.

If her child has a title, I look at it as, one day as this child will grow up as a cousin of Estelle, maybe having a cousin who is styled and not just a sibling might not make you feel so burdened with doing official duties who knows. I don't remember if Madeleine's cousins have titles or not but just maybe it would be nice to be able to have a larger royal support group for official events.

Whatever the situation, styled, not styled as in Chris' choice I look at them as a family first, royal second. They're people behind gilded walls perhaps but still people with choices and concerns. We will never know what it's like to have to live with a camera in front of your private moments, a walk down the street or on your honeymoon to know press took pictures--whether or not you invited them so they might leave you alone.

For Sweden, I admire the country a great deal for it's nature, it's education, it's culture. All the things that her child, styled as seems possible, will enjoy. Perhaps not as burdened as Estelle may feel as she gets older, who knows. But in either case I think regardless where they as a family chose to live this child will grow up hearing, visiting, attending all things Swedish. It's not an end to a person's heritage on where they live or if they are or aren't titled. A heritage is something this whole family will always have and share.

I admire Madeleine out of the aspect for her humanity, which I see from work with Childhood, I admire the courage it takes to grow up in the spotlight and still try and maintain a sense of normalcy and private moments. I don't know her beyond the few times I've heard her speak during an interview. I don't know how much of her having an arrogant attitude, spoiled brat, party princess in the papers is true or not. I can't judge what I can't see. Her family, Chris and this child that's her private life and each time anyone has a baby it's special and enjoyable because it's a continuation of life, not so much dynastic means today. I don't know Chris but I admire any grown man who has a job, a career and a sense of himself, which without a title says a lot to me that he's sure of himself that he doesn't need a title to be married to a woman he fell in love with. That's what love is, loving someone regardless of a title or not for the person they are.
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